by: Tameon

Aim

Make people want to use him, despite his untimely death.

Ideas

1) A quest involving a family member of one of his old bounties.

2) A lighthearted quest involving both Yoshimo and Haer 'Dalis.

Topics of Interest

1) Should his interaction with the Shadow Thieves be expanded?

2) Any places he could interject at? Haer 'Dalis shouldn't interject much more as he is of a different plane, but Yoshimo's street smart and all that good stuff.



DISCUSSION THREAD:

Kae:

As much as I'd like to say 'lets give an option to save Yoshimo!' I don't think we should. It is fitting for his character, as sad as it is. Perhaps there is a way he can be raised or something?

I must admit.. I do like Yoshimo. I don't have him in the party because his forced treachery makes me sad, but if there were perhaps a way to raise him it would be nice.

Which would make this mod incompatible with that other mod that saves him... ho well.



Tameon:

If there were any fitting way to save/resurrect him, I'd do it. However, some might find it cheesy. It would also make the mod incompatable with Tortured Souls and Turnabout.



Kae:

Indeed it would. However... is there a way to check if another mod is installed? Or perhaps we could make it a subcomponent.



Tameon:

It would require quite a bit of coding (something I know next to nothing of) and dialogue, especially for ToB. I guess I could do it (as I kind of only need to do half as much work as the rest of you guys with Yoshimo), but it would take awhile and I'd need some help from the rest of you keeping Yoshimo in character. And a check for installed mods would be easy enough, or so I hear.



theacefes:

I dont know...I think that maybe this might be a character that we should just touch upon with some more interjections and banters...and maybe a friendship path with the PC, not the crap traitor giveaway banters that Yoshi has with the PC. Honestly, I think that once he is dead...he is dead...and his soul was dishonored for eternity..even with the whole heart thing. I think our efforts could be spent perfecting the things that need to be perfected, rather than put a load on ourselves with coding in compatibility with other mods...can you imagine the bugs?



Arconian:

I disagree that there was anything dishonorable about Yoshimo. He was searching for his sister's murderer, which was CHARNAME (whether or not you actually killed Tamoko. Good ole BioWare!). He even regrets having the geas, if I recall.

Also, Turnabout has a component that searches for Quest Pack. If you do the part of QP that allows Xzar to live, he won't be summonable at the Throne of Bhaal. No bugs to speak of there, so why couldn't we make similar checks? Or rather, they could do the checking, since ToB would be after SoA...

Besides, this is the NPC Interaction Expansion Pack, not the NPC Interaction Perfection Pack. It would add to the game. Anyway, I'm up for it, I guess. I'm gonna need help, though. Does anyone think it shouldn't be done, though?

Also, adding banters should not be done. That's PPG's Banter Pack's job.



theacefes:

theacefes wrote:
I dont know...I think that maybe this might be a character that we should just touch upon with some more interjections and banters...and maybe a friendship path with the PC, not the crap traitor giveaway banters that Yoshi has with the PC. Honestly, I think that once he is dead...he is dead...and his soul was dishonored for eternity..even with the whole heart thing. I think our efforts could be spent perfecting the things that need to be perfected, rather than put a load on ourselves with coding in compatibility with other mods...can you imagine the bugs?


Quote:
I disagree that there was anything dishonorable about Yoshimo. He was searching for his sister's murderer, which was CHARNAME (whether or not you actually killed Tamoko. Good ole BioWare!). He even regrets having the geas, if I recall.


Maybe it's because I was never really a fan of Yoshi but a geas is a geas whether it is honorable or not. Searching for his sister's murderer being the point of taking the geas and regretting it does not make it all right that he betrayed CHARNAME. Tamoko may have not been the nicest person but she NEVER betrayed Sarevok, which is why I think Yoshi isnt the most honorable guy.

Quote:
Also, Turnabout has a component that searches for Quest Pack. If you do the part of QP that allows Xzar to live, he won't be summonable at the Throne of Bhaal. No bugs to speak of there, so why couldn't we make similar checks? Or rather, they could do the checking, since ToB would be after SoA...


It's possible if you really wanted to.

Quote:
Besides, this is the NPC Interaction Expansion Pack, not the NPC Interaction Perfection Pack. It would add to the game. Anyway, I'm up for it, I guess. I'm gonna need help, though. Does anyone think it shouldn't be done, though?


I don't quite understand why you bring perfection into this, as I thought we were going to do a thorough job so we only have one release, but I'm hoping that we at least try to go for perfect.

Also, I never suggested that it was our job to make the NPCs perfect ppl, rather I think that if we were to try and bring Yoshi back, that is exactly what we'd be doing.

Quote:
Also, adding banters should not be done. That's PPG's Banter Pack's job.


How do you explain PC friendship tracks or NPC/NPC friendships, respectships/etc. Banters will be necessary, but they will be incorporated into the expansion of that charater (ex: Nalia discovering that her ideals may be flawed therefore she asks the advice of CHARNAME and other NPCs...those are banters)

EDIT: I am not trying to sound rude or rejecting your ideas because I'm mean or anything...after all, this is your mod too! big grin *hugs*

I'm not suggesting that we make another banter pack, no no, I'm just saying that the word banter must be applied to describe conversations between the NPCs...which is what some of us are going to be doing with our chosen characters.



Kae:

After thinking about it for a while, I think if TS and Turnabout aren't installed, it should be possible to raise him, but it would be extremely difficult, and if you didn't he would be lost forever.

I agree with theacefes - I don't think what he did was honourable. I think we was tricked into the geas, but it still wasn't honourable, and if we do decide to make him raisable in SoA then his banters in ToB would have to reflect this.

Also note that raising him would almost be going against canon, which we should try not to do. I'm all for making him raisable, but only if there are suitable consequences.

There needs to be more tragedy in his story, I think, if we raise him. I'm a sucker for a good tragedy Razz



Tameon:

Oh, man, yes. There would be tradegy all over the place. big grin I love tragedy! Err, fictional tragedy, that is.

Then again, how would the party go about raising him? The PnP bit on geas is tough to grasp. Wasn't there a dragon somewhere in ToB who had a geas on him, and you had to free him? How did that go down? Perhaps Yoshimo doesn't have to die at all, but be released from the geas. I dunno. Just tossin' ideas.

I think I will have a go at this, despite all the extra work it will be. If I get to writing it and see it won't work out to be good stuff, then I'll just stop and concentrate on the other work. It should be okay, though.



Kae:

But dying is sooo much more tragedic frown He needs to be under the Geas when he dies, otherwise the story wouldn't turn out the same. We could take his heart to a temple somewhere, and have the geas removed... and then figure out how to raise him.

It would have to involve the gods somehow, through direct interference or not. Perhaps a new item needs to be forged, using one of those Rods of, uh, raising, a rare gem (always need a rare gem!) and something of Yoshimo's (his heart, or something).

And then he would be alived.



theacefes:

Surprised At the part in Spellhold where yoshimo comes up to you and says, "Oh..well I guess I have to die but not without a fight...hi-ya!", perhaps if the PC has a high enough Charisma or if we have a PC friendship track, and the PC is far enough along in it, maybe the PC could convince Yoshimo that he could be redeemed somehow...quest? big grin


Question...after the PC is turned over to Irenicus, is his geas broken?



Tameon:

Hmm...I had never thought of that. What if his geas is broken? That would change everything.

I am suddenly reminded of Zelos, the coolest character in Tales of Symphonia. He, under certain conditions, betrays the party by letting the main villain of the game capture them. However, just before something really bad happens (villain's about to kill you or something, can't remember), Zelos jumps in and saves the day. It was one of the greatest moments in gaming history for me. It turns out that he never wanted to betray you at all, but had to because he had already made a deal with the enemy. He just waited for the right moment to show that he was still on your side, otherwise the villain would get all angry and shoot him or something.

I'm really not sure how that relates to Yoshimo, but it was good. I love that game. I <3 console games.

I'm inclined to not include a Yoshimo Friendship, just because...well...I don't feel like it. Besides, if we give everyone a Friendship, it would get really cheesy, I think, and may even be more than we can handle.



theacefes:

Perhaps just give the PC a chance to reason with him..and a redeeming quest maybe? (CHR high enough...etc..there should be some factor)



Feuille:

Charisma aside, if Yoshimo doesn't do Irenicus's will, the gaes will make his heart explode Confused

I don't know. I really don't think bringing Yoshimo *back* is a good idea. I think part of the attraction of him is that he's such a tragic character, with no *real* redemption available to him.

EDIT: Oooh, oooh! Haer'Dalis - Yoshimo goodness. Bring it on!!!



Moongaze:

I agree. Just leave his death alone. It's like Aerith from Final Fantasy 7. She *dies* in the middle of the story. It's probably THE most memorable moment in the entire game, and it touched nearly every fan who played the game. She never returns back to life, and that's what makes it so special. Yoshimo's death would have far less meaning and impact if you could just revive him after a few hours....know what I mean?



Tameon:

Yuffie was ten times cooler than Aerith/Aeris. Razz

I got to thinking, though. I agree that Yoshimo's death is one of the more deep and tragic points in the game. What if he still dies, but makes a comeback in Hell? He could ask for CHARNAME to share some of his Bhaal-ness so he can come back to life (ala Sarevok) and assist CHARNAME in killing Irenicus. I imagine he would want to get in on the action for what Jonny boy did to him.

He wouldn't join the party, but fight alongside you like Balthazar in Ascension or Drizz't during the Bodhi sequence. When Ellesime (sp?) wakes brings CHARNAME back to life, Yoshimo would be brought back too just like any of the PC's other allies. During the start of ToB, when the party goes in search of those destiny-talkin' head statues, he could approach the PC and ask him if he could travel with him again.

He would only join in an effort to redeem himself. He would go through all sorts of regret and stuff, so the death wouldn't be cheapened. He might wonder if he's worthy of a second chance, he might wonder if Tamoko would approve of his current course of even of what he did to CHARNAME, and he even might still be bitter at the ole Bhaalspawn for killing him.



Feuille:

It's an interesting idea, certainly, but I stick by my previous statement: bringing him back at all is a mistake.



Tameon:

Ah, you're probably right. I couldn't help but toy with the idea of bringing him back, though.

Yoshimo/Haer 'Dalis quest, though. Haer 'Dalis mentions that Yoshimo would make a good actor for the lead part in the Kura-Turan play "Ronin" (an actual novel, but I'll change some stuff about it). Yoshimo will find it to be an amusing idea, and go along with it. So, HD ropes the PC into going on a search for the perfect props and actors/actresses for the play. This will, of course, require alot of Charisma and such, as well as doing alot of favors and bargaining. In the meantime, there will be a bit of dialogue between Haer 'Dalis and Yoshimo in order to prepare Yoshi for the role. Whether or not you get the cheap props and the bad actors or the high quality props and experienced actors will determine whether or not the play is a flop or a success. It's a rough idea, certainly, but both NPCs could benefit from a quest and it would be interesting to see Haer 'Dalis trying to convince Yoshimo and CHARNAME to play along. laughing

What do you think? Could it work? It'd be similar to the Bard Stronghold quest, in a way. Any suggestions on what areas or NPCs to use?