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#153610 God worshiped on multiple worlds...

Posted by Zandilar on 18 September 2004 - 02:47 AM in Delusions of the Mind


BTW in addition to what Zandilar said, the sword Cyric used to kill Bhaal and Leira turned out to be an avatar of Mask, though Cyric didn't find that out until over a decade later.  So in fact, one god (i.e. Mask) was hiding during the ToT :).

Yes, that's right. :) I forgot all about Godsbane - who also had the spirit of Kelemvor captive, and hid him from Cyric.

Sometimes, though, I have to feel sorry for Mask. He gets such a rough deal.

#153547 God worshiped on multiple worlds...

Posted by Zandilar on 17 September 2004 - 05:52 PM in Delusions of the Mind


obviously i'm stupid, and off topic, but how did the gods die when they were forced to walk the earth. It doesn't make any sense to me.

During the Time of Troubles...

Mystra was killed by Helm when She tried to re-ascend to Her dwelling upon discovering who it was who had stolen the Tablets of Fate - unfortunately for Her, this was not enough to appease Ao's wrath, and Helm would not let Her by. This caused magic to begin to malfunction wildly.

Bane and Torm got into a big fight in Tantras, destroying parts of that city in the process. The result was that Torm prevailed over Bane, but died from His efforts.

Bhaal was destroyed by Cyric (who was a mortal at the time), who killed Him near the Boreskyr Bridge. Cyric later went on to murder Leria once he'd ascended.

Myrkul was destroyed by Midnight over Waterdeeps's harbour - some small amount of His essence remains behind in the form of a crown called the Crown of Horns.

Torm's life was restored to Him at the end of the Time of Troubles by Ao, because Torm had been fulfilling His Duty by defending Tantras from Bane. Cyric and Midnight (who became the new Mystra) were "ascended to godhood" by Ao.

If a god was slain during the Time of Troubles, they were irrevokably killed. Only Ao could restore them to life. Several gods had plans to avoid that kind of fate, but not all of them succeeded. (Bane had previous planted the seed for His return in the form of His son Iyachtu Xvim - whom He destoryed in His return... According to the BG saga, Bhaal had gone about "sowing His wild oats" prior to the ToT in order to achieve something similar to Bane...)

I would imagine any deity that existed on many worlds would have their Toril aspect destroyed totally - unless Ao, for some reason, decided to let them return to Toril.

#153541 God worshiped on multiple worlds...

Posted by Zandilar on 17 September 2004 - 05:28 PM in Delusions of the Mind


2 questions:
1)  In the time of troubles, only part of a diety worshiped on multiple worlds would have been brought down to the walk the earth, right?  If they died, would they rejoin the rest of themselves, or would the god permanetly loose that part of their power.

This is one of those paradoxical situations... What probably happened is that Lolth's avatar was sent to Toril, and the rest of her "divinity" was barred from influencing Toril by Ao.

2)  Is their ranking (whether their a lesser, intemediate or greater power) based on their total power on all the worlds their worshiped or just the given world?

The power of a deity on Toril is determined by just their worshipers on Toril. Though Lolth on Toril and Lolth on Oerth are the same deity, there are actually differences between them and what power they possess - for instance, on Toril, Lolth has six domains, while on Oerth she only has four... But Lolth on Oerth will have extra salient divine abilities, because the Toril Lolth has had to use three of hers on extra domains, while Oerth Lolth only had to use one. (If that makes sense at all. ;))

#153536 Third edition questions

Posted by Zandilar on 17 September 2004 - 04:53 PM in Delusions of the Mind


Where's Impact from? I never saw it?

I first read about it in Faiths and Pantheons, but I'm pretty sure it's been incorporated into 3.5e... *grabs 3.5e DMG to check*

Okay... It's not in there, but it definitely says that the Keen ability can only be applied to piercing and slashing weapons...

The Impact special ability can be found on page 27 in Faiths and Pantheons, in a side bar under Gond's entry in the book.

#153217 Third edition questions

Posted by Zandilar on 16 September 2004 - 02:19 PM in Delusions of the Mind


That's what I originally thought, but then I was sure I remembered seeing keen warhammers in IWD2.  I guess either my memory's just playing up, or Black Isle made a mistake.

Well you know it's possible that they just had it able to be applied it to all weapons in IWD2, computer games rarely adhere 100% to the rules of the pen and paper game they're based on. I am not sure, it could also be that Impact is a 3.5 revision. But Keen definitely only applies to sharp or pointy weapons. :P

#152905 Third edition questions

Posted by Zandilar on 15 September 2004 - 10:42 PM in Delusions of the Mind


In real life times, think of it as the weapon being exceptionally well balanced, i.e. it handles better than most weapons of it's type.

That description could apply more correctly to masterwork weapons. ;) Keen weapons are exceptionally "sharp". The Keen ability can only be applied to piercing or slashing weapons. Bludgeoning weapons have the Impact ability applied to them for the same effect (doubling of critical range). :)

#152904 3E vs AD&D

Posted by Zandilar on 15 September 2004 - 10:36 PM in Delusions of the Mind


Hmm... I have done some "in depth" study of the Raise Dead line of spells in 3.5e, and come to some interesting conclusions - even in the Forgotten Realms, someone able to cast Raise Dead is not easy to come by...

Raise Dead is a 5th level spell, which means that a cleric needs to be at least 9th level to cast the spell. The Priest or the person requiring the Priest to cast the spell must provice 5000gp worth of diamonds as a spell component that will be consumed in the casting!!!

The 5000gp worth of diamonds is not a cost, it's not what the priest charges, it's actually a spell component - think of it as a sacrifice directly offered (and taken) by the god granting the spell.

Now, lets use Baldur's Gate as an example. Baldur's Gate is a metropolis with a population of 42,103 people.

The rules in the 3.5e DMG suggest that at a minimum, the highest level cleric for that sized community would be 13th level, while at maximum, the highest level cleric for that sized community would be 18th level... But because this is such a large community, there are actually four clerics of the highest level. Now, if the highest level clerics were 15th level...

Beneath those four are 8 7th level clerics, 16 4th level clerics, 32 2nd level clerics, and a whopping 64 1st level clerics. So, out of a city with a population of 42,103 people, we can see that there are a grand total of... 4 clerics capable of casting Raise Dead (they are also capable of casting Ressurection, but not True Ressurection)... of course, this is not taking into account any special residents that may also make Baldur's Gate home.

(Of course, if the four highest clerics are 18th level, there'd be 8 9th level clerics, which would mean that there would be 12 clerics in Baldur's Gate capable of casting Raise Dead or better - however, I'm just using static numbers, there could be 1 18th level cleric (2 9th level clerics), 1 16th level (2 8th level clerics), 1 14th level (2 7th level), and 1 13th level (2 6th level) as the highest clerics in the city - for a total of just 6 capable of casting Raise dead of better)

I hope I haven't lost you in all that. :)

On top of that, you then have Role Playing concerns. How many of those clerics are available to a person off the street? Have the PCs done something that would make that church think positively of them? Are some of those clerics involved in churches that the PCs have offended or are opposed to? What kind of service or cost will the church impose on the PCs who have requested their help? Raising the dead should never be easy.

I can see doing without the monitary cost for raise dead (but not for Gate or Imprisonment).  The way I would handle it is that the character comes back with 1 hp, and 1 constitution, and regains constitution at 1 point per day of bedrest.  In addition, the cleric must roleplay out the request and give a convincing prayer.  The deity also has every right to refuse the request if the raised character is of the wrong alignment or ethos.  A badly done request or too many raise dead spells in the same campaign can result in the deity slapping the priest back a few levels or the priest falling out of favor.

A quick look in the Players Handbook reveals that Temporary Ability Damage comes back at a rate of 1 point per full night's rest (8 hours), or 2 points per day (24 hours) of complete bed rest.

Also imposing that penalty goes against the established rules for the spells concerned. Raise Dead has the following penalties: You loose a level, or 2 points of Constitution (permanently) if 1st level. A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its hit dice (so 1 point if 1 HD or level 1, or 2 points if 2 HD or level 2 etc). Magical diseases and curses are not undone by this process (though normal poisons are neutralised and ordinary diseases are cured). Any missing parts from the body, such as lost limbs, are not restored by this spell. Raise Dead can't bring back to life those who have been made into Undead (even if killed again), or those who were killed by a death effect (such as Finger of Death). Constructs, Elementals, Outsiders, and Undead can't be raised by the spell, and it cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Which is one of the balances on clerical spells that frequently gets lost.  High-level clerical spells are requests for aid from the deity. The spell must be cast to aid the ethos of the deity. It is quite possible that Lathander might not want the Lawful-Evil Necromancer in the party to benefit from Heal. An evil deity might prefer to let the Good paladin or ranger die.  Mages don't have to worry about being in anyone's favor so they can cast what they want, when they want, and how they want to with impunity.

The philosophy for 3rd Edition is that a numerical benefit (or penalty) cannot be balanced by a role playing penalty (or benefit)... For the game to be fairly balanced, it needs to be based on cold hard rules. Spells work regardless of whom they are being cast on - the god might have a few words to say to their priest later (in the form or a vision or an omen), but I seriously doubt they'd hold back a spell they'd already granted. (That's why priests pray for spells at the same time each day - it's the same as a wizard memorising a spell, which is why clerics don't cast spells like sorcerers.)

#151905 Which Mods are better?

Posted by Zandilar on 12 September 2004 - 08:17 PM in IE Modding Discussion


Well actually...

BG2 is basically what could be termed an interactive story. It shares many traits in common with a normal ordinary book. It has a begining, it has a middle, it has an end. It has a central plot that forms the backbone for the story that you can't really deviate from.

It doesn't matter if you're playing a good, a neutral, or an evil character. Your motivations might be different, but you still do the same things. Get out of dungeon, pick up a party, raise money, rescue Imoen (regardless of motivation, you can't avoid rescuing her), travel through the Underdark, help the elves of Suldanessellar, and ultimately confront Irenicus. THE END (unless you have ToB, which just extends the storyline.)

What modders are doing is basically adding options to the main plot. Extra quests, NPCs, tweaks to game mechanics etc... You can't turn BG2 into an MMORPG style of game, because like all stories... it has an end.

The only way to do it, is to make a TC of BG2 which removes the main storyline.

You're better off playing around with the Aurora Toolset... Plenty of people have tried to make Persistant worlds using it. I couldn't tell you how many succeeded, because frankly I don't know. The ones I played during the early days of NWN modding, were, quite frankly, boring. There wasn't anything much to do (except kill monsters or even *gasp* craft! :rolleyes:), and the only persistance about them was that their owners didn't take them down.

(And if you're not really interested in modding, you could just try playing an MMORPG.)

#151904 Kindrek NPC mod for BGII--SoA & ToB

Posted by Zandilar on 12 September 2004 - 08:00 PM in IE Modding Discussion


I know, I'm being a pipsqueak here...

Roc is also an anagram for Orc.

#151902 War of the Spider Queen Novels

Posted by Zandilar on 12 September 2004 - 07:52 PM in Delusions of the Mind


The War of the Spider Queen series takes place in the current game year of the Realms, which is 1372 DR (Year of Wild Magic). Information about what's happend thus far in the War can be found in the Player's Guide to Faerun, pg 170.

The Time of Trouble was 1358 DR (Year of Shadows)
The Baldur's Gate I novel occured in 1368 DR (Year of the Banner)
The Baldur's Gate II novels occured in 1369 DR (Year of the Gauntlet)

#151873 Can you get high charisma Orcs?

Posted by Zandilar on 12 September 2004 - 03:42 PM in Delusions of the Mind


Have you any idea of the back-aches those breasts would cause that poor Half-Orcish woman?

Sheesh. ;)

#145720 What are your stats IRL?

Posted by Zandilar on 26 August 2004 - 01:38 AM in Delusions of the Mind


Err, guys... We are talking about an average stat of 10 for your common person. What's with all these sub 10s? Are we trying to do reverse "cheating"?

To the poster with 2 strength... You realise that 3 is as low as you can go with a human, don't you? Stats are rolled on 3d6, minimum you can get is 3 without racial adjustments.

Strength 2: -3 to hit, -2 to damage, weight allowance 1lbs, max press 5lbs, open door 1, BB/LG 0%.

to translate.. 1lbs = 0.4545... kg. 5lbs = 2.272kg

Strength 10: no to hit, no to damage, weight allowance 40lbs, max press 115lbs, open door 6, BB/LG 2%

40lbs = 18kg, 115lbs = 52.27kg

A 20kg dog is not exactly the easiest thing to carry, it's a living being and will struggle, and you can't stick it across your shoulders or otherwise more evenly distribute its weight. You could probably put your strength around the 6 mark if it makes you feel better.

My real life stats, being honest and taking into account that 10 is average...

Str: 8 - I'm not as strong as I could be, below average.
Dex: 12 - I can hit a fairly small target with a small thrown object, am not overly klutzy
Con: 10 - Average
Int: 13-14 - my IQ is somewhere between 130 and 140.
Wis: 12 - people have called me wise, but I have a quick temper which partially counters that.
Cha: 14 - people just seem to like me, and want to confide in me - don't know why that is.

Concidering the last time I took the what DnD class are you test and came out as a NG Elven Bard-Mage of Mystra, I think that fits. :)

#145146 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 24 August 2004 - 01:43 PM in IE Modding Discussion


Let's see:

asides from being gay:

- He's the son of a farmer.

- dead loyal to his mentor (Who is a second father)

- sees undead as poor souls trapped in rotting bodies -- his duty to relieve their suffering by killing them.

He'd know that lesser undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are just animated corpses - their souls having fled when they initially died. (He'd have learnt that when he gained his paladin training.)

- a love of unicorns.

- VERY naive about intimacy.

- used to be bullied by his much stronger twin sister because he's too nice. (she's a monk now) But the twins still love each other.

- dislike Necromancers and arrogant nobles.

- is most likely to suggest the less violent path of many quests.

Is there a particular reason why he chose/was chosen by Lathander to be a Paladin? So far he actually sounds more like a paladin of Ilmater (what with relieving the suffering of undead, and choosing the less violent path, even allowing himself to be bullied fits the Ilmatari profile).

He actually sounds like a fairly standard paladin (actually, on second thoughts, he sounds more like a cleric). Is there something that sets him apart? It could be a quirk or flaw of his personality, it could be an unusual event or experience from his past... Like... You could say he had an encounter with a unicorn at dawn and took it to be a sign that Lathander (especially if Dante was a worshiper of Lathander prior to him taking up the mantle of paladin - and given that pretty much all Realmsians (with few exceptions) have a patron deity, I'd say that's the odds are good that he worshiped the Morninglord) was calling him to service - for instance... (Like he saw him/her from a distance, or even that the unicorn came right up and touched Dante's forehead with his/her horn.)

Hope this makes sense... :)

#144865 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 24 August 2004 - 12:36 AM in IE Modding Discussion


I have no problem the sexuality of charichters.
the ethics of a paladin being gay could make for an intresting story

Definitely. :)

The ethics of being a straight paladin would be just as interesting, since there is no god in the Realms who has a problem with sexual orientation. Sorry. That is just the way it is. :rolleyes: Alignment doesn't influence sexual orientation either. In short, a paladin being homosexual is as much a non-issue as a paladin being heterosexual. Having a loving relationship with someone of the same gender is not an issue in the Realms. (I wonder how many ways I have to say it before people start to believe me?)

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Sharess is also a CG deity of hedonism, love etc etc. Perhaps it might be a good idea to look into her description as well and see if you can make something out of it for the paladin story?

Sune is the only Chaotic deity who has paladins. :)

Sharess is the goddess of hedonism, sensual fulfilment, festhalls, and cats... She does not have paladins.

#144477 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 22 August 2004 - 02:10 PM in IE Modding Discussion


I never said 'unnatural', or 'wrong', as a matter of act, I said it is highly likely that sexual orientation is coded in the genes (therefore, it is natural). The fact that a thing happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And yes, I still believe paladins should not be allowed to sleep with a man or a woman just for the f***.

The question is not whether a simple human should do it, rather on whether a paladin should do it. And I think, that even LadyLeFay (the author of the mod) sees something unfitting in a paladin not having straight affairs, since Keldorn wants to 'turn Dante straight'.

Well, the author has also asked that we let this go, but I just want to say that I think you're looking at this issue through Real World ™ eyes, and what applies on Earth may not apply on Abeir-Toril.

We have some really screwed up social mores regarding sex and sexuality here on Earth... Let me give you an example of a paladin who may not be chaste or celibate.

A paladin of Sune. Sune is a CG goddess who has paladins. She's pretty much the exception to the rule that Paladins must follow a god who is within one step of LG (which is to say, LG, LN, and NG).

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Actually, I was thinking Dante might be well suited to Her - since at least some of his issues come from his sexuality, and who he comes to love. Sune definitely doesn't condem homosexuality, since She is the goddess of all love. Also, a Paladin of Sune might find him/herself in some interesting conflicts with both Keldorn (who is a paladin of Torm) and Anomen (who is a cleric/fighter (not paladin) of Helm (?)) - Torm is LG and Helm is LN. While a paladin of Sune would still be LG, Her dogma is not lawful by any stretch. :)

Does Dante have a deity yet? :)

#144278 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 21 August 2004 - 03:53 PM in IE Modding Discussion


About elelmental lovers -- there are genazi you know... they have to come from somewhere.

Genasi are actually decended from Genie - the Dao, Marid, Efreeti, and Djinni. They're elementally based creatures that live in the elemental planes - they are definitely intelligent (more so than most humanoid races), and quite powerful (which is why Genasi get an ECL in 3rd Ed). Genasi are more common around Calimport, since that region was ruled by Djinni and Efreeti ages ago.

Genie are definitely humanoid creatures. :)

#144103 Portraits for mods

Posted by Zandilar on 21 August 2004 - 04:10 AM in IE Modding Discussion

Just wondering something. I read somewhere, maybe on this board, that using (a certain person's?) portraits in mods is violation of copyright.

By that figuring, - well there are a lot of portrait packs out there with pics scanned from book covers as well as lots of portraits that are on the net in general. I download a bunch for future reference but I don't keep urls of everyplace I go....and anyway a pic might be posted a million different places on the net.

Was this guy serious about copyright violation, and if so how does one mod without the worry that at some point now or in any possible future someone might sue him for use of a pic he found someplace.

I write, semi-professionally - internet stories and recently had to change the name of a minor character in a story I wrote five years ago due to some twit having the same name and not likeing his involvement in my work at all. (Dragonfan fan stories by the way)

See where I am going with this? Unless a person does his own art, start to finish they Could Be at risk. What's up with that.

Just wondering.

Minotaur In Maze


If you're worried about copyright issues, my advice to you is simple: Look on NWN Vault (or other portrait site)... Look for original art posted by the original artist. When you find one you like, e-mail the artist and politely ask for permission to use the portrait in your mod. Chances are, the portrait artist will say yes, unless the work was comissioned specifically for another mod. Also, if you don't see something that would work, but you do see an artist whose original work catches your eye, you could e-mail them and politely inquire if they're willing to do a comission.

(I see you already found Sol Ek Sa, so I won't tell you to look there. :P)

#143996 NPC mod: Human female priest

Posted by Zandilar on 20 August 2004 - 04:19 PM in IE Mod Ideas


There is a temple of Waukeen there. But I am planning on some sort of interlude where the PC can interfere, perhaps on the market place (after all her parents are merchants). The idea is molding in my head, hopefully I will be able to write it down soon ;)

Because Lliira had a special role in the Time of Troubles (taking on Waukeen's divinity), it might be interesting to keep in mind how old your NPC was during the Time of Troubles, and what effect, if any, the loss of connection to Lliira had on her during that time (if she was old enough to be a priestess then - if she's in her late 20s, then that's quite likely)

The Time of Troubles occured in 1358 DR... BG2:SoA occurs around 1369DR (11 years later) - so if she's 29, she'd have been 18 at the time, and possibly already a priestess. Just something to concider. :)

#143991 Can the faithless be resurected in the Realms?

Posted by Zandilar on 20 August 2004 - 04:01 PM in Delusions of the Mind

I think the goal of a good writer/scripter for CPRGs is to provide for sensible roleplaying.  Otherwise you might as well just play doom.

No, the job of the writer/scripter is to provide an entertaining experience within the confines of an interactive story. :) The way dialogue works in BG2 allows for a small amount of choice, but not the freedom of true Role Playing. If I want to do something not covered by dialogue/game scripts, I can't. I'm stuck with the options provided.

I must say there have been many many times when given options in dialogue (both in the main game and within mods) that I've gone, "but this character wouldn't say any of those things, where's the xyz option?"

Anyway, that's way off topic for this thread. :)

ObOT: In 2nd Ed, Raise Dead strips a point of Con from the person being raised... But I don't think it does that in BG2...

#143735 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 20 August 2004 - 05:51 AM in Delusions of the Mind


The "For Duty and Deity" adventure is available for download at the WotC site:

Oh cool, I didn't realise they had made it a free download. For Duty and Deity was one of my favorite modules... I have no idea why I ever gave it away. ><

#143729 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 20 August 2004 - 05:19 AM in IE Modding Discussion


You might be interested to check this message out about attitudes towards non-standard sexualities in the Realms: Ed's Comments

The author of the message is Ed Greenwood (via Jeff Thetford, one of the list mods), the creator of the Forgotten Realms, and the relevant section is where he's addressing me (Alexandra/Zandilar)... For brevity, here's the bit:

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes, the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male, inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted from the printed version because of TSR's standards (which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely reporting what the natives are, and do..."

As you can see by that, there would be no issue with a paladin being gay. :) No deity specifically denounces/demonizes homosexuality in the Realms. We are not dealing with Real World Religions here. Don't make the mistake of confusing Abeir-Toril with Earth.

I can also point you in the direction of references to homosexual and polyamorus liasions in FR print, though these are usually kind of hidden and only refered to in passing or implied - if you're interested. (They're mostly 3rd Ed references, though, since somehow things seem to have been relaxed, despite Hasbro being stricter with their "family friendly" policy! (In computer games, the opposite has happened, though, with the Festhall in Waterdeep being eliminated totally from NWN:HotU!))

#143649 NPC mod: Human female priest

Posted by Zandilar on 19 August 2004 - 11:56 PM in IE Mod Ideas


If there will be romance with the PC, I am not going to write it as a standard BGII romances are written. You can be friends even if you are not romancing her, she won?t leave, she won?t sulk. She won?t romance any evil aligned PCs though, nor will she make such a good friends with them either. And she won?t romance a female PC (she?s just not lesbian or bisexual), but you can be friends with her. And I think she would romance any race, she?s not a kind of person who will look the outside, she rather looks for a kind and loyal heart.

Yes! :thumb: Friendship is a great idea!

Bioware tended to neglect relationships between female characters... Especially in the romancable 3 (actually I think they just neglected relationships between characters that didn't meet romance requirements in general). Having the ability to befriend a major NPC is always a good thing. :thumb:

About her religion and god, where could I find out more about Lliira? The description on the site Bob mentioned is kind of short. I know I could try to find it on my own, but I think that maybe here are people who have a lots of links to related sites :lol:

Lliira has always been concidered a minor deity of the Realms, and her main claim to fame at the time of BG2 (1369 DR) is that she's acting as "caretaker" for Waukeen's faithful while Waukeen is missing.

And because I'm feeling generous ;), here's Lliira's dogma...

Each day is another movement in the Elysian Rigadoon, the joyful dance of a life lived in rapture and without care or frustration. Seek joy always by working to bestow it upon others. Festivals are for all - gather into celebrations the lost, the lonely, the exiled and outlaw, the shunned, and even your foes. Let folk follow their own desires, and never fail to follow your own.

That's from the 3rd Ed book, Faiths and Pantheons... If I get the time/inclination I'll type up her dogma from the 2nd Ed Faiths and Avatars - but essentially it's the same, just more wordy ;).

#143647 Can the faithless be resurected in the Realms?

Posted by Zandilar on 19 August 2004 - 11:46 PM in Delusions of the Mind


2nd Edition comments:

2nd Edition didn't allow for ....

Actually, 2nd edition allowed for almost anything within the bounds of roleplaying. It should always be remembered that higher-level clerical spells are a boon from a deity and could fail if the cleric failed to roleplay the required request.

We're talking about a CRPG here, and RP is a very minor part of a CRPG. A computer can't make judgement calls about RPing. :) And it would be odd to have a raise dead not work for an NPC when it never fails for an NPC in the PC's party (that hasn't been totally destroyed).

#143573 Can the faithless be resurected in the Realms?

Posted by Zandilar on 19 August 2004 - 01:54 PM in Delusions of the Mind


Almost certainly true.  The problem is that so many dramatic plots depend on the lost lover, the fallen friend, the loved one beyond reach, etc.

It's very tough to write a tale of loss when the Death of X can be fixed at any time by a visit to the local priest. At most, you can get some mild pathos out of a poor family trying to save up to bring back a loved one, but then that says something dark about the motivations of "Good" priests.

For that matter, the certainty of an afterlife makes many sorts of story less viable.

For this dialog, I need a tragedy. If it's trite, I'll have to live with that. 

See, the problem is, most things can be fixed in the FR by finding a mage or cleric and having them cast X spell for Y money. Money is the major issue; almost everyone in the FR has never even had a quarter of the money to raise someone at once. Perhaps, you can make a tragety about a rich family, and about how money can't buy everything...

Unlike their 2nd Ed counterparts (which only require the cleric's holy symbol and some holy water), the 3rd Ed "raise dead" spell line all require a costly component. (The BG2 versions of the 2nd Ed spells require no components at all!)

Raise Dead (the 5th level spell) requires 500gp worth of diamonds.
Resurrection (the 7th level spell) requires 10,000gp worth of diamonds.
True Resurrection (the 9th level spell) requires 25,000gp worth of diamonds.

Most good churches would probably charge that as a minimum, but also they generally charge for the time and effort as well (:rolleyes: I don't agree with that idea if the person concerned can produce the actual component required - but donations are always well appreciated) - in the case of Raise Dead it would be 450gp on top of the 500gp of diamonds.

Now, take into concideration the number of 9th level clerics (the minimum level required to cast Raise Dead) in any given city - and you start to see that getting someone resurrected is not so easy. However, having said that, Athkatla is well and truely big enough to have several 9th level clerics... And if this story/plot involves the PC, they're almost certainly going to have a high enough level cleric in the party to perform the resurrection anyway (Jaheira advances VERY quickly as a Druid and generally has Harper's Call very shortly after the game commences, for example).

Sometimes there are reasons why writers ignore game rules, because generally speaking game rules don't make a good plot. You could just say it doesn't work and give no justification at all - after all Aerie doesn't get her wings back by casting a Regeneration spell (and restoring lost limbs is exactly the purpose of that spell). That's definitely not the best way to handle it, though.

#143062 Can the faithless be resurected in the Realms?

Posted by Zandilar on 18 August 2004 - 05:08 AM in Delusions of the Mind


Just be careful where you apply it.  I don't have books handy, but sometimes there are differences in content in 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition.

There's a point in a dialog I'm working on involving a girl who commited suicide. Her familly is not poor. The tragedy is lessened if they could just go to the Temple district and have her brought back. So, as long as it does not conflict with Forgotten Realms lore as established in the BG1&2 games or official FR lore, in this case I'd say that she died without faith, and therefore is beyond any known form of Resurection available in Athkathla.

If FR lore does allow even the faithless to be easilly brought back, I'll have to find some other way to keep her "out of reach." Maybe because she doesn't want to return or something, but that may reduce the emotional value of the story.

2nd Edition comments:

2nd Edition didn't allow for the person being raised to refuse to come back, but it seems fairly logical. They were just assumed to work all the time. Raise Dead required the whole body, and that they weren't dead longer than 1 day/caster level... and permanantly drained a point of Constitution from the person being raised. Also, Raise Dead could not return an Elf to life (could raise other humanoids, but not elves - but as you can see, this did not apply in BG2 - plus Jaheira got Harper's Call which does not appear in 2nd Ed anywhere. Druids got Reincarnation, and that was it as far as bringing back the dead is concerned!). Resurrection, could raise someone who had been dead up to 10 years/level, didn't require the whole body, and could raise even elves. (Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot about System Shock Survival rolls... You need to survive one of those in both cases, but an average Con (10) has 75% chance to be successful. Don't need them in 3rd Ed, and certainly don't need them in BG2!)

The reverse of Resurrection, Destruction, could put someone beyond being raised, but not beyond being raised by a Wish spell.

General and 3rd Edition comments:

Committing suicide is a big hint that she may not wish to return.

For a faithless or false, up to the point of Kelemvor's judgement, they may be raised or resurrected by normal means... Generally I'd say a day is about right. After that, a Wish or a Miracle spell is required (because the direct intervention of a deity is required - and even so, I think the person concerned could still refuse to come back anyway)... True Resurrection, Wish, and Miracle all require rather hefty sacrifices (by way of material goods), they are, by no means, cheap.

Also, the dead are very much aware of who is trying to raise them, and can refuse to come back. (For example, a paladin might not allow herself to be raised if the person doing the raising is a priest of an evil deity).

Personally, I feel the idea of the "resurrection that doesn't work" is over done... It's almost a cliche, particularly in Realms books where deities and their clerics are almost universally avoided (and if clerics are included, they're usually low powered, fanatical, or incompetent (and usually they're all three)). *sigh* It's a personal gripe of mine.