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#105673 Most 'Redeemable' BG - SoA - ToB villain

Posted by Zandilar on 23 March 2004 - 09:00 PM in Longer Road

Heya,

Just a couple of points...

1) Jon Irenicus would not end up in the Abyss after his death. He would merely cease to be. He has no soul, and no divine spark... The former was reclaimed by CHARNAME, the latter had been stripped by the Seldarine.

2) Bioware seem to either not understand how FR's afterlife works, or they like the idea of certain individuals having "special fates" with regards to that. Even if Jon had a soul, he would not have ended up in the Abyss... Unless he was faithful to some CE deity. (Or he accepted the offer of a Tanar'ri while his soul was queued up on the Fugue Plane awaiting Kelemvor's judgement.)

3) I had something to say about Drizzt, but for some reason I fergetted it. :D

Take all I have written with a grain of salt, as you should all things written on the internet! :) (Plus I'm working on memory today, I don't have my books with me.)

EDIT: This isn't to say that there can't be a reasonable explanation for Jon's continued existance after SoA. Just don't brush it under the rug, though... I hate that. ;) It's important to know how he survived!



#110246 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 16 April 2004 - 05:22 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

**Warning, mild spoilers for NWN: Hordes of the Underdark, the Return of the Archwizards trilogy of Realms books, and the Baldur's Gate novel trio are contained within this message.**

Please... While the Realms do have some areas that bear a remarkable resemblance to several parts of our world, Abeir-Toril is not Earth. :)

Here is what Ed Greenwood himself had to say about sexuality in the Realms (you'll have to scroll down - but it's the bit specifically addressing me), and here is another post from Ed (the second one on the page) about marriage, including religiously sanctioned one night stands.

Now, before you all go "pooh pooh, isn't that randy old goat Elminster this guy's mary sue (or is that gary stu?) and therefore he's incapable of making a comment, because he's just this horny old guy?" You also need to remember that Ed Greenwood is the guy who made the Realms in the first place!

TSR, WotC, and now Hasbro have had rather strict "Family Friendly" policies (the latter being the strictest), which means that aspect of the Realms has been scrupulously kept out of print - though sometimes this gets by-passed by particularly clever writers. So you'll probably never see an openly gay, bi, lesbian, or polyamorus person in print, even though there should be. (There are four exceptions I can think of off the top of my head, 1) The description of Elversult in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg143), for an example of "clever" (blatant IMHO!) wording... Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklin, both women. At the time the FRCS first came out, Sean K Reynolds on the Realms-L list would not comment beyond "read it however you want"; 2) The implied polygamous relationship at the end of the Return of the Archwizards series... I don't know how they missed that one; 3) The portrayal of Imoen in (godawful) Philip Athans and (not-so-godawful-but-still-fairly-painful) Drew Karpyshyn's Baldur's Gate trio of books; 4) the implied polygamous relationship at the end of Hordes of the Underdark if the male PC has romanced both Nathyrra and Aribeth.)

The fact of the matter is, Abeir-Toril is nothing like Earth. For a start, they don't have certian real life religions that have dominated Earth society for thousands of years... Instead they have such deities as Sune, who is the goddess of passion, beauty and love...  Lliira, the godess of joy, festivals, and dancing. The original party deity! Sharess, who is the goddess of sensual pleasures, festhalls (a nice way of saying brothels), and patroness of courtesans (a nice way of saying prostitutes)... In fact, Sharess's main temple is in Calimport - make of that what you will!

Ironically enough, Zandilar is also another name for Sharess... Zandilar was a Yuirwood deity, worshiped by elves who lived there long ago. She was kind of like a more pleasure centered love deity, very fickle... At one point, these deities were at war with the drow gods, and they were loosing. So in an attempt to help distract Vhaeraun, Zandilar went to him and tried to seduce him. Unfortunately he saw through her ploy and was able to subdue her. He was about to absorb her when Bast came along, and basically together Zandilar and Bast were able to fight him off. Unfortunately she had been severely weakened in the battle, and basically allowed Bast to absorb the last of her divinity... (Zandilar is not the first deity Bast/Sharess has absorbed, by the way)... This being done, Bast continued on hspellholdstudios.neter way, having a strong bout of wanderlust... At some point she came under the sway of Shar, and people started to equate her to the Harbinger of Shar... and started to call her Sharess accordingly. Sharess became darker and she seemed to loose some kind of spark that had been in her, in many ways she was slowly fading. Eventually she would have become just another aspect of Shar (absorbed by the greater power), but then the Time of Troubles occured. Sharess took on the Pasha's favorite concubine as her Avatar and partied hard... Until Shar arrived, fresh from fighting her sister Selune in Waterdeep. As she was about to absorb Sharess once and for all, Sune arrived and poured a goblet of water over Sharess. The water in the goblet had come from the Evergold (a magical fountian that is shared by Sune, Aphrodite, and Hanali Celanil among other beauty/love deities), and it seemed to restore the joy and beauty Sharess had lost in her time under Shar's sway. Sharess was finally able to be rid of the taint of Shar, and has made quite a come back as far as popularity is concerned.

Well... I guess that doesn't have much to say about the proposed mod, and more to say of the treatment of sex and sexuality in the Realms (and the history of Zandilar and Sharess)... I must say I like the idea of this mod. :)



#110440 Another romance NPC

Posted by Zandilar on 16 April 2004 - 07:14 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

I have problems with the basic concept of the character.

When a human becomes a vampire, they become undead. For all intents and purposes they actually physically die. The curse "snap shots" the body in the condition it was in, and aging stops.

What would happen to a baby do you think? I have a couple of theories...

1) The vampire's body rejects the foetus as a foriegn object. That ends that. :)

or

2) The baby becomes vampiric in utero. Which is to say, it dies, gets a load of its mother's blood via the placenta, and becomes undead. Aging stops - so no further development of the foetus, and it relies on the blood its mother ingests. (Quite a horrifying thought, that, being pregnant forever!)

Lastly, I very much doubt if a bunch of vampires would honestly want to turn a mere baby into a vampire... The trouble is the one I mentioned above. When a human is bitten, drained, and forced to drink of a vampire's blood, they become undead. Aging stops. A baby would remain a baby forever... which would be quite a liability in the long run, and I'm sure after a certain amount of time as a vampire, the mother would get sick of having to look after it.

Just some thoughts. :) Don't let them stop you. :)

(As for stats? WHO CARES!! :) The stats, as they stand, are fine IMHO.)



#110444 Naming Your Character

Posted by Zandilar on 16 April 2004 - 07:26 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Since I'm here, I may as well mention it...

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has a list of common first names and surnames on page 12, for pretty much all races and all the major regions. It wouldn't be good to overuse the table, but it does give you an idea of what names sound like in the various regions.

I might also add that the FRCS is a good resource for most aspiring mod makers, because it has a very good overview of the Realms, providing history and flavour for the various regions. Current game year is 1372 DR, the BG saga occurs during 1369 DR.



#110626 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 17 April 2004 - 05:45 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Isn't it interesting that the majority of BG2 female NPCs have either been depicted as bisexual or lesbian in fan-fic or created as sexually agressive bi- or lesbian women by modders, yet poor Minsc, Korgan and Jan are never depicted as randy gay men on the make?
;)


Oh it IS very interesting, actually. Did you know that the majority of slash authors are women? I am not sure if this also applies to femmeslash, which is a good deal rarer than just straight slash.

However, those characters that tend to get slashed are the "handsome" ones... I could see Anomen and Keldorn subject to slashing... Interesting that you didn't mention either of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the majority of modders be male? This might be a factor.

Oh well, interesting thoughts. :)



#110713 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 18 April 2004 - 06:33 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,


The original male NPCs from BG2 I have seen called gay/bisexual or had associated slash fiction were Anomen, Haer'Dalis, Valygar and Keldorn. From modded - Solaufein and Kelsey. I would not call either Valygar or Keldorn handsome - personal opinion only, please, no need to argue about that.


Oh, I put "handsome" in inverted commas for a reason. :) There does seem to be a pattern to the types of males who are slashed. Usually they're the most desirable to their female authors for one reason or other. ;)

What is femme slash? Women writing lesbians? It wouldn't occur for the same reason men don't write homosexual males.


Technically the term "slash" only refers to m/m pairings. Femmeslash (also femslash) is used to distinguish f/f.

Oddly enough, I think the authors of slash in general are women - slash or femmeslash... This might have something to do with the fact that good slash (IMHO) generally deals with relationships, and not just smut. :)

My attempts at serious fiction have included homosexual males, as have a few of my less serious pieces (I don't write erotica). Of straight male authors of Science Fiction and Fantasy, I can recall sexually active gay male character treated well by Robert Heinlein, Jack L. Chalker, Philip Jose Farmer, and others. The point being, male authors do include gay male characters when the story calls for it, both in erotic and mainstream fiction.


I write erotica when the mood moves me, I just don't write about men (and I'm female if you hadn't guessed, and lesbian). There are always exceptions, I was merely noting that the majority of slash seems to be written by women. :) This isn't to say that males couldn't write Slash, just that they don't do it very often.

At any rate, I wasn't talking about professional mainstream fiction or erotica... Slash (in general) grew out of Fanfiction. By it's very definition, all slash is amateur -

"Taking two MALE characters, from a television series, movie, comic, anime, book, etc., and "pairing" them together, usually for sexual acts." (from UrbanDictionary.com)

"Slash fiction is fan fiction, describing homosexual pairings between media characters, often in explicit detail, and very frequently outside the canon of the source. The name arises from the use of the "/" character in phrases such as "Kirk/Spock" to describe the stories. ("Kirk/Spock" is widely thought to be the first type of slash fiction, first appearing in the 1970s in Star Trek fanzines.)" (From Wikipedia)

I don't exactly see stories written about copyrighted and/or trademarked characters being published professionally, except without express permission of the owners of the copyright and/or trademark... (And usually they have creative control over what the characters may or may not do, and homosexuality isn't exactly accepted... yet.)



#110894 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 19 April 2004 - 03:01 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Zandilar, you've written female erotica but no femslash?  Wait, I don't really want to know the answer.  Has any of this erotica seen the light of day?  At your discretion, I would certainly be interesting in browsing a piece or two.

I suppose slash is unappealing to me because it defies the image I have of the male NPC's in question and, ultimately, because most of what I have seen is spoof.  I do know that it is not because I have anything against homosexual sex (as it is, in fact, quite arousing... probably for the same reasons lesbian sex is arousing to men).



In fact, I do write femmeslash... I have some publicly published, and some privately published (private mailing list's archive, in fact)... It's Knights of the Old Republic (PC/Bastila) and Alien Ressurection (Ripley/Call). :) I have other things - Baldur's Gate (PC/Imoen, Jaheira/Viconia), Xena (guess who), Babylon 5 (Ivanova/Talia Winters), Neverwinter Nights (PC/Aribeth), general Forgotten Realms (The Seven Sisters (various parings and not with each other, except for one story), Alusair/Caladnei) - that were either never completed or just never saw the light of day online... The  NWN fic was actually posted to the Bioware boards back in the day, but I never did complete it. :(

As for just erotica? Hmmm... I have one piece of a rather BDSM nature that probably won't see the light of day since I'm pretty conflicted over it, and it deals with a pair of characters who are in a novel I've been working on for a while. :)



#111383 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 20 April 2004 - 11:50 PM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

:lol:

Well, here's a small sample flirt-bit.

(You felt as though you were being watched--you instinctly turned to where you thought it was coming from, only to peer into Dante's azure eyes)
Dante: oh... hello... <Charname> (he ducked his head as he turned away suddenly -- if you didn't know better, you would swear that he was blushing!)


Erm.. No offence, but you should be using present tense not past tense... Since you are describing what the player sees as they see it, not describing what they saw after they saw it... (ie: You need to write like a DM. :P)

If that makes sense at all. :)



#116716 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 01:55 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

Um, what is sweeping about "dependent on medium and context", "tend to pick," and "has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces"?  It's been true so far in the three published studies on internet discussion spaces I've worked on to date.  These findings have been confirmed independently for both asynchronous bulletin boards and chat, to the point where there are computer programs that can detect gender within a genre with an 80% accuracy rate:  ( http://www.bookblog....nder/genie.html ).  You talk about science, well, the fact that the majority of people online openly reveal their geneder is about as good as an established fact as you can get in the world of human behavior. 



Submitted: Five random pieces of fiction written by me.

Algorithim predicted Author is...

Male four times.

Female once.

Actual author gender: Female.

Err... and you say this is supposed to be 80% accurate? It was wrong 80% of the time. I know only five pieces isn't terribly much, but according to that I'm male!! Well maybe it's because I identify as lesbian. :P



#116727 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 02:31 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

Warning! This message contains spoilers for the novels based on the BG saga, read at your own peril, and make sure you have a bucket handy!

This is a really really interesting question that has no right answer.

It's pointless to yell at each other about it to be honest. There just isn't a right answer. Civil discussion is the way to go on this, and at least acknowledge that there isn't a "ONE TRUE ANSWER" to the question.

Everyone forgets that Abeir-Toril simply isn't Earth, and Earth's social mores do not apply in any way shape or form.

Having said that, the BG saga was written by a team of developers who are mostly male and only had the canon source material to work with. Attitudes and such towards homosexuality are not mentioned in any of the books I have on the Realms (and I'm up to date with 3rd Edition Realms sources, having just bought Underdark the other week)... However, there is at least one mention of a homosexual couple (Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklyn, the former who rules the city of Elversult, the latter who pretty much runs the Watch of Elversult) in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. When directly confronted about the use of the word consort Sean Reynolds (one of the four authors of the book) was evasive, and like Peter Thomas of Bioware on Juhani in KotOR, refused to address it directly. He basically said "read it as you will"... There is a very clear difference between consort and cohort, and a very clear definition of the word consort - and yet he wouldn't say yes or no.

The novels of the BG saga are exceptions to the usual from TSR/WotC and Hasbro... and I suspect the only reason it got past people was because it was a time of transition for TSR, moving first to WotC then WotC being bought by Hasbro... Phil Athans, who wrote the first two novels is both an author and editor for WotC... The last novel is by Drew Karpyshyn, who is an employee of Bioware. The first book in the series has the TSR Silver Anniversary logo on it, the last has WotC's logo.

Anyway, HERE is what Ed Greenwood says about the world he invented. You'll have to scroll down the message a little - it's in the section that addresses me directly. I'll quote it below incase you're too lazy to look. :P (Yes I did notice it had been quoted in this thread before, but I suspect people ignored it. :P)

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes,
the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male,
inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter
of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted
from the printed version because of TSR's standards
(which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on
my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to
everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely
taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely
reporting what the natives are, and do..."


In conclusion... The canon Imoen is both a lesbian and a very very dead young woman, slain by the drowish assassin Sedai while in Belthazar's care - her immortal soul carelessly quashed and totally obspellholdstudios.netlitterated beyond the help of any deity. *grinds teeth* Jaheira too is very very dead and beyond the help of any deity *grinds teeth again*, and Minsc is just a madman with a rat. Why is this canon? Because Realms novels are canon. Specifically because it changed nothing about the Realms, there isn't any reason to believe the novels aren't canon... :rolleyes: (Please note, the canonality of the novels is something I vehemently disagree with!)



#116787 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 05:37 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

Which points out how while you can go from a bunch of indivdiual case examples to a generality, you can't go from a generality to an individual case example very well ;-).

Does 80% accuracy mean that it will work for everyone?  No.  But it does mean that over hundreds of cases with hundreds of people, gender can be identified to a fairly high degree of accuracy.


Even so, if you look at the figures presented on the site itself, it's closer to 60% accurate than 80%.

What it comes down to is that you cannot apply mathematics to something that isn't mathematical. :)

There are a number of things that contribute to how a person writes... Their nationality, their social class, their level of education, weather or not English is a second language for the writer, how old they are, what mood they were in, whose point of view they were writing from... and I really could go on. It's a very long list. Gender is probably about last on the list of contributing factors. IMHO there is no way an algorithim is going to be able to take all of that into concideration. Sure, this one takes "genre" into account - that being fiction, non-fiction, blog entry. There is a difference between formal and informal language, so it's good they look at that... but there are just so many other factors... They should, at the very least, be asking country of origin and level of education!!

Call me skeptical, but there you go. :)



#116802 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 05:53 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

It's interesting to note that in the film Troy, Archilles, who in the book Illiad has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend.  It is hardly surprising that a game which probably relies heavily on American sales has failed to mention homosexuality in a big way when this would of course lead to the bible belt (covering of 40% of America last I recall) steering a wide course around the product.

Don't get your worlds confused.  The fact that the largest buyer of this type of product also happens to have a fairly large, and in some cases verging on zealot, christian community, would have quite some influence on anything produced in the gaming arena.  If it's enough to scare a major hollywood film company, then what chance does a small developer stand?



I also understand they managed to keep actual deific participation to a bare minimum. (Haven't seen Troy yet, but I'm planning to go see it this week sometime.)

But yes, marketing is definitely something that big businesses have to keep in mind when publishing something. Which is why we don't get blatant mentioned of homosexuality in computer games, role playing source materials, and (generally) novels associated with them.

Hasbro is a big company, and they have specific policies against presenting homosexuality or anything that might be regarded as adult in nature... Though there are exceptions (ie: The Book of Vile Darkness and The Book of Exalted Deeds both of which deal with adult concepts, but both have labels on them clearly warning of such content - besides which book publication is slightly different to game publication since there is no rating system for books)...

The BG saga however, is a little bit harder to pin down. The licensing company was basically in a state of flux during the development. (TSR => WotC => Hasbro)... Policies weren't as pinned down as they are now (no festhalls in Hordes of the Underdark for example. There was one but it was taken out at Hasbro's insistence - now I KNOW there are festhalls in Waterdeep!)...

However, having said that... In the world of fan fiction and game mods, anything goes. There is no pressure from Christian (and other) zealots not to put stuff in them that might not be acceptable to the so-called "moral majority".



#117222 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 18 May 2004 - 04:36 PM in Imoen Relationship

[kidding]
My take on Imoen is that she is not Pink.  I'm not 100% sure, but the reasons I think so are...

- She never outright says she's Pink.  Most people who don't claim to be Pink are not, in fact, Pink.
- Pink is a singer & Imoen never sings.
- Sure, she shares some characteristics with Pink, but she also shares many characteristics with Madonna, & we know she's not Madonna, because Irenicus says so.
- You should know that if you play a Gnome Wizard Slayer, wielding the Stiletto of Demarchess, & approach Ribald in Chapter 6, Imoen says "Well, I'm really a blonde... this... this isn't natural..."
- Canon FR materials never even mention Pink, because Hasbro has a Family Friendly policy which forbids them from mentioning anything related to "getting the party started" - oddly enough, they are all for Family Portraits...
- In the books, she is a rock star, I'll admit, but then again they also say that Jaheira is a "ho"
[/kidding]


[tongueincheek]
Here are some more points...

- Actually, in the books they say she's a little bit of nothing, though Drew Karpyshyn gives her back a few of her thief abilties. :P
- Also, she's described as being just under five feet tall with chestnut hair.
- In Lord Mirrabbo's mod, Imoen both sings and plays a guitar.

Weather this lends evidence to either side of the the argument pertaining to Imoen's pinkness (and gods I hope she's not pink, I hate that colour!), I have no clue. :)
[/tongueincheek]



#135408 Improved Aerie romance

Posted by Zandilar on 25 July 2004 - 05:12 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,


I think the "Wish" spell could do it. Of course, if the player has low wisdom and gets the words of the wish wrong, it could lead to an interesting quest  (do you remember Malicant the chicken :P ?)

This would be a fair add-in to the Unfinished Business mod; the original Aerie plot offered you a chance to turn her into a bird and let her fly away, as life on the ground was so unbearable.

Personally I think it was a bad idea and best dropped (a "romantic" mercy killing as a solution to an emotional problem), but it would be very easy to put back in the game


Why bother with that? Aerie has the ability to heal herself at some point. :) So can Jaheira (not sure if Viconia actually gets this spell). Of course, any caster who can cast Wish can simulate Regenerate!

Regenerate (Necromancy)
Reversible


Sphere: Necromantic
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 3 rounds
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: None

When a regenerate spell is cast, body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even the heads of multi-headed creatures), bones, and organs grow back. The process of regeneration requires but one round if the severed member(s) is (are) present and touching the creature, 2d4 turns otherwise. The creature must be living to recieve the benefits of this spell. If the severed member is not present, or if the injury is older than one day per caster level, the recipient must roll a successful system shock check to survive the spell.

The reverse, wither, causes the member or organ touched to shrivel and cease functioning in one round, dropping off into dust in 2d4 turns. Creatures must be touched for the harmful effect to occur.

The material components of this spell are a prayer device and holy water (or unholy water for the reverse).


For those wondering, yes... Wings are limbs, they are concidered members. They would be restored by this spell.



#138059 My first NPC, come and see

Posted by Zandilar on 31 July 2004 - 04:10 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Well, Viconia tries to be nice to Kivan in BG1...


Be that as it may, this is BG2 we're talking about. The fact remains that she won't romance a male PC elf in BG2. Why would she romance a male NPC elf in BG2? (Being nice to someone does not equal romancing them.)

I noticed the link to the Kivan mod in your sig, Nightmare, and my initial reaction to the Kivan/Viconia romance idea was exactly the same as my reaction here. You must have a very good reason for it to work. (Especially since Kivan is a devotee of Shevarash. The Black Archer is not the kind of deity that would take his worshippers consorting with drow very lightly, since he's mostly focused on killing every single one of them (yep, he's the closest thing the surface elves have to an outright evil deity, and he allows Chaotic Evil clerics (as well as CG and CN) in his clergy. But this is not the place for that discussion!)

(The solution to Viconia romancing an elf NPC is simply to remove the restriction against romancing a PC elf (which then means that your version of Viconia does romance elves)... which then means said NPC elf gets competition from PC elves.)



#138066 Realms Lore:How important is it?

Posted by Zandilar on 31 July 2004 - 04:51 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Actually, the BG saga is quite full of lore flaws.

Yes, but ToB even more so than the others :P.


Heh. You think ToB is bad, try some of the NWN series. :D

One word... (if I spell it right!)

Suldanessellar.

Try and find that in any canon source that isn't one of the BG novels. :)

How about two? Pages 67 of Lands of Intrigue book 1, and page 126 of Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the 3rd Edition FR Campaign Setting as well, but I could be wrong.



1) Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II... what can I say? The book was written around the game, which definitely isn't canon... Not to mention that Volo himself is an unreliable narrator. :)

2) Lands of Intrigue... Hmmm... I'll have to check that out... <_< (Yeah, I've been known to be wrong. :) I didn't check my sources properly... *sigh* I completely forgot about LoI.)

3) FRCS has no reference to Suldanessellar - if it's that important an elvish settlement, it would be mentioned along side Evereska and Evermeet (or at least in the Lands of Intrigue section of the book, but it's not). No mention of Suldanessellar in Races of Faerun. Player's Guide to Faerun doesn't have a reference either, but that's not surprising. I could go through the rest of my 3rd Ed books, but somehow I don't think I'll find any references.



#138397 My first NPC, come and see

Posted by Zandilar on 01 August 2004 - 05:27 PM in IE Mod Ideas

It's not a romance :).



Well there you go. *blushes and goes and hides in a corner*



#139116 Realms Lore:How important is it?

Posted by Zandilar on 04 August 2004 - 03:44 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Not to mention Greyhawk is the "default" 3rd Edition world (the general 3E D&D handbooks refer to Greyhawk deities, etc), and consequently there are probably far more campaigns set in it than the Forgotten Realms.


I can't remember the last time I saw a map of Oerth. Which would seem to indicate that there are a lot of homebrewed worlds using the Greyhawk pantheon. :)



#141598 Language of the drow

Posted by Zandilar on 12 August 2004 - 05:00 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Alright, thank you. :)

But a further question: if I want emphasise that the fiend is small / little / insignificant how should I proceed?



You'd just use "little fiend"

which in drow is... lotha nuij

You might find this website helpful: House Maerdyn Translator

And this is the dictionary it uses, mostly: TL'Ilythiiri Zhaun'ol (The Drow Dictionary)



#141729 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 12 August 2004 - 03:43 PM in Delusions of the Mind

Tyr came from another Prime Material world, but I don't think we've ever been told it's name.


Tyr is the same god as Tyr from the Norse pantheon. So he's yet another Earth Based Interloper.

However, it might be worth it to note that the Norse Tyr was the god of Law. The Norse god of Justice was Forseti...


Waukeen wasn't destroyed during the Time of Troubles, she gave her portfolio and much of her divine essence to her friend Llira and thus managed to escape to the planes.  There she tried to strike a deal with Graz'zt, but trusting a creature of immense evil isn't exactly a good idea (obviously Waukeen lost most of her sanity as well as her powers :P).  He quickly betrayed and imprisoned her.


Waukeen has since been rescued from Graz'zt (by a band of adventurers, no less... (There was a module with that very goal - "For Duty and Deity")), and has returned to the Realms and recovered her portfolio from Lliira - jealousy has now caused a rift between the two former friends (many Waukeenar converted to Lliiraism during that time, but did not convert back).



#141790 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 04:05 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Tyr came from another Prime Material world, but I don't think we've ever been told it's name.

Waukeen wasn't destroyed during the Time of Troubles, she gave her portfolio and much of her divine essence to her friend Llira and thus managed to escape to the planes.  There she tried to strike a deal with Graz'zt, but trusting a creature of immense evil isn't exactly a good idea (obviously Waukeen lost most of her sanity as well as her powers :P).  He quickly betrayed and imprisoned her.

But what was known about her fate to their followers from Toril ? In TOB, some characters refer to Waukeen as to a dead goddess. It's another inconsistency or the mortals thought she was dead ?



At the time of BG2 (either 1368DR or 1369DR IIRC), Waukeen is still languishing in Graz'zt's prison, and Lliira is currently granting spells to her faithful. Waukeen is not actually dead, she's just... umm... not a god at the time for all intents and purposes*. She's rescued in 1371DR.

The current (pen and paper) game year is 1372DR. :)

* What use is she for Gratz'zt then, I hear you ask? Well she knows a lot about lost wealth and where it could be found, despite not having her godhood... Wealth that could be power if in the right hands. (I think that's the reason given in For Duty and Deity, but it's been a while since I've owned that module.)



#141795 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 04:29 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Well she was'nt answering prayers or granting spells and divinations were inconclusive, so the faithful of Waukeen assumed she was dead.


Actually, the strongest and most faithful of her priests never lost faith (which is pretty much where the module For Duty and Deity started - one of Waukeen's faithful had a vision of her trapped by Graz'zt)... and Lliira went to great lengths to make sure Waukeen's clergy knew that she was only holding onto this portfolio in trust for Waukeen (in other words, that she felt that Waukeen would eventually return).

Someone mentioned above that their has been a sort of 'schism' between Llira and Waukeen (who were best friends before ToT), Any1 care to elaborate on this, cos the last time i checked (2ed F&A), Llira actually hoped that Waukeen would return.


Well the strange thing is, when I went and looked it up, Faiths and Pantheons (the 3rd Edition God Book) practically contradicts itself... Here are the relevant bits:



Waukeen

History/Relationships: At the Time of Troubles Waukeen was still a relatively young deity with few enemies other than Mask, whose portfolio naturally opposed hers. As such, it was quite unexpected that Waukeen was never seen during the Time of Troubles and never reclaimed her mantle following its conclusion. The truth behind her disappearance is that she conspired with Lliira to leave her divine mantle behind and escaped to the Astral Plane with the aid of a deity from another world. Once on the Astral Plane, she intended to make her way back to her realm via the Abyss through the purchased aid of the demon lord Graz'zt. However, Graz'zt betrayed her, making her his prisoner, and it was not until she was rescued by daring adventurers in 1371DR that she regained her divinity. Waukeen has since revitalized and reassured her worshipers of her existance and her restored divine power. She is very closely with Lliira (who held her portfolio in trust while she was imprisoned), Gond (whose inventions she appreciates), and Shaundakul (whose portfolio complements hers). Aside from Mask, her only true enemy is Graz'zt, against whom she has sworn her eventual revenge.



Lliira

History/Relationships: Lliira's greatest friend in the Faerun pantheon is Milil who shares her flare for perfomance. Once a great friend of the commerce goddess Waukeen, Lliira even went as far as to absorb many of the disaffected clerics of the Merchant's Friend when that goddess vanished during the Time of Troubles. Upon her return, however, Waukeen jealously coverted those clerics who had converted to Lliiranism, and the resulting ill will has formed a slight rift between the former companions. The murder of Selgaunt's High Revelmistress Chalanna Asjros (whom Lliira had taken as a lover while in mortal form during the Time of Troubles) by forces of Loviatar has deeply affected the Joybringer. A militant order known as the scarlet mummers now tours Faerun with her support, dispatching agents of the Maiden of Pain by means of an elaborate and deadly dance utilizing the mummers' blade boots.




#141798 Drow

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 04:48 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Eilistraee's home is Svartalfheim in Ysgard; Ghaundaur's is the Cauldron of Slime in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze; Kiaransalee's is Thanatos in the Abyss; Lolth's and Selvetarm's is the Demonweb Pits, 666th layer of the Abyss; Vhaeraun's is Ellaniath in Carceri.



Uh... Nope. :P

I do have to contradict you here... they retroactively changed the Cosmology of Faerun, and it basically "has always been that way"...

Eilistraee now dwells (mostly) in Arvandor with the Seldarine
The rest of the Drow pantheon dwell in the Demonweb Pits, and even Eilistraee has a realm there, though she rarely ever visits it.

The Realms were never meant to fit into Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology....

Here is a very interesting thread on Sean K Reynold's forums talking about the Cosmology of the Realms, and why it was part of the Great Wheel in the first place, and why it should never have been...
Cosmology Question

(Sean Reynolds is responsible for the new cosmology, and since his name is actually on the cover of FRCS along with Ed Greenwood, Skip Williams, and Rob Heinsoo, I think he'd know what he was talking about. :))

(Mind you, the new cosmology was not published at the time the Baldur's Gate games were made!)



#141925 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 05:22 PM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Is it possible for a mortal to ascend if he gets enough people to worship him?



Anyone who wishes to ascend to godhood has to get Ao's approval*.  (It helps to have a divine sponsor - such as Finder Wyvernspur who had Tymora as a patron, and he defeated Moander to become a demi-god.)

* Which means that any potential new deity needs to either fit into Ao's idea of "balance" or serve Ao's idea of "balance". Also, the new deity can't overlap portfolios with another demigod (though the new deity can overlap with greater deities, but they'd find themselves serving them. :))

I have played one RPG system that included such "priests of themselves" (They "attracted lightning" a lot but could do incridible things at high levels) but I don't know if the trick works in Fearun as well.


I'm pretty sure that trick won't work in Faerun. The PC would need to be a god to grant themselves powers. :P



#141937 Drow

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 06:06 PM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

What exactly changed, why and how does Sean explain it?

What books were the changes detailed in?



This is the key quote out of that thread...

Except it wasn't TSR "trying to bring everyone together." It was Lorraine Williams (owner of TSR, a non-gamer who looked down on gamers, who was proud that she never gamed, and planned on giving TSR to her daughter as a gift when she turned 18 so she's have a "little business" to run") who said that all TSR products had to use the same universe so that people would all buy the same universe-books. She's also the person who said "If it's in core D&D, it's in FR," which is why every single Monster Manual monster _had_ to have a place in FR, and why every world-subset expansion (OA, Maztica, Al Qadim, etc.) was crammed into FR instead of letting it be independent. Lorraine, who ran TSR into the ground because she didn't know what she was doing. Lorraine who decided that TSR's audience was children age 8-10 and any evidence to the contrary was just wrong. She wanted FR to use the Great Wheel because the Great Wheel was "official." Do you really want to be taking her advice for your game or for official FR product?

We went a different way because we were no longer forced to follow strict rules that made no sense or were even bad for the setting.


You can find information on the new Cosmology in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg 256) and the Players Guide to Faerun (pg 139). (They are both 3rd Edition books.) Briefly, it's more of a treelike structure, and has deity groupings that make more sense. (For example, Dweomerheart is the home of all the deities of magic, Mystra (NG), Azuth (LN), Velsharoon (NE), and Savras (TN).)