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#117222 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 18 May 2004 - 04:36 PM in Imoen Relationship

[kidding]
My take on Imoen is that she is not Pink.  I'm not 100% sure, but the reasons I think so are...

- She never outright says she's Pink.  Most people who don't claim to be Pink are not, in fact, Pink.
- Pink is a singer & Imoen never sings.
- Sure, she shares some characteristics with Pink, but she also shares many characteristics with Madonna, & we know she's not Madonna, because Irenicus says so.
- You should know that if you play a Gnome Wizard Slayer, wielding the Stiletto of Demarchess, & approach Ribald in Chapter 6, Imoen says "Well, I'm really a blonde... this... this isn't natural..."
- Canon FR materials never even mention Pink, because Hasbro has a Family Friendly policy which forbids them from mentioning anything related to "getting the party started" - oddly enough, they are all for Family Portraits...
- In the books, she is a rock star, I'll admit, but then again they also say that Jaheira is a "ho"
[/kidding]


[tongueincheek]
Here are some more points...

- Actually, in the books they say she's a little bit of nothing, though Drew Karpyshyn gives her back a few of her thief abilties. :P
- Also, she's described as being just under five feet tall with chestnut hair.
- In Lord Mirrabbo's mod, Imoen both sings and plays a guitar.

Weather this lends evidence to either side of the the argument pertaining to Imoen's pinkness (and gods I hope she's not pink, I hate that colour!), I have no clue. :)
[/tongueincheek]



#116727 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 02:31 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

Warning! This message contains spoilers for the novels based on the BG saga, read at your own peril, and make sure you have a bucket handy!

This is a really really interesting question that has no right answer.

It's pointless to yell at each other about it to be honest. There just isn't a right answer. Civil discussion is the way to go on this, and at least acknowledge that there isn't a "ONE TRUE ANSWER" to the question.

Everyone forgets that Abeir-Toril simply isn't Earth, and Earth's social mores do not apply in any way shape or form.

Having said that, the BG saga was written by a team of developers who are mostly male and only had the canon source material to work with. Attitudes and such towards homosexuality are not mentioned in any of the books I have on the Realms (and I'm up to date with 3rd Edition Realms sources, having just bought Underdark the other week)... However, there is at least one mention of a homosexual couple (Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklyn, the former who rules the city of Elversult, the latter who pretty much runs the Watch of Elversult) in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. When directly confronted about the use of the word consort Sean Reynolds (one of the four authors of the book) was evasive, and like Peter Thomas of Bioware on Juhani in KotOR, refused to address it directly. He basically said "read it as you will"... There is a very clear difference between consort and cohort, and a very clear definition of the word consort - and yet he wouldn't say yes or no.

The novels of the BG saga are exceptions to the usual from TSR/WotC and Hasbro... and I suspect the only reason it got past people was because it was a time of transition for TSR, moving first to WotC then WotC being bought by Hasbro... Phil Athans, who wrote the first two novels is both an author and editor for WotC... The last novel is by Drew Karpyshyn, who is an employee of Bioware. The first book in the series has the TSR Silver Anniversary logo on it, the last has WotC's logo.

Anyway, HERE is what Ed Greenwood says about the world he invented. You'll have to scroll down the message a little - it's in the section that addresses me directly. I'll quote it below incase you're too lazy to look. :P (Yes I did notice it had been quoted in this thread before, but I suspect people ignored it. :P)

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes,
the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male,
inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter
of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted
from the printed version because of TSR's standards
(which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on
my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to
everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely
taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely
reporting what the natives are, and do..."


In conclusion... The canon Imoen is both a lesbian and a very very dead young woman, slain by the drowish assassin Sedai while in Belthazar's care - her immortal soul carelessly quashed and totally obspellholdstudios.netlitterated beyond the help of any deity. *grinds teeth* Jaheira too is very very dead and beyond the help of any deity *grinds teeth again*, and Minsc is just a madman with a rat. Why is this canon? Because Realms novels are canon. Specifically because it changed nothing about the Realms, there isn't any reason to believe the novels aren't canon... :rolleyes: (Please note, the canonality of the novels is something I vehemently disagree with!)



#116787 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 05:37 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

Which points out how while you can go from a bunch of indivdiual case examples to a generality, you can't go from a generality to an individual case example very well ;-).

Does 80% accuracy mean that it will work for everyone?  No.  But it does mean that over hundreds of cases with hundreds of people, gender can be identified to a fairly high degree of accuracy.


Even so, if you look at the figures presented on the site itself, it's closer to 60% accurate than 80%.

What it comes down to is that you cannot apply mathematics to something that isn't mathematical. :)

There are a number of things that contribute to how a person writes... Their nationality, their social class, their level of education, weather or not English is a second language for the writer, how old they are, what mood they were in, whose point of view they were writing from... and I really could go on. It's a very long list. Gender is probably about last on the list of contributing factors. IMHO there is no way an algorithim is going to be able to take all of that into concideration. Sure, this one takes "genre" into account - that being fiction, non-fiction, blog entry. There is a difference between formal and informal language, so it's good they look at that... but there are just so many other factors... They should, at the very least, be asking country of origin and level of education!!

Call me skeptical, but there you go. :)



#116716 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 01:55 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

Um, what is sweeping about "dependent on medium and context", "tend to pick," and "has been pretty consistent in most online discussion spaces"?  It's been true so far in the three published studies on internet discussion spaces I've worked on to date.  These findings have been confirmed independently for both asynchronous bulletin boards and chat, to the point where there are computer programs that can detect gender within a genre with an 80% accuracy rate:  ( http://www.bookblog....nder/genie.html ).  You talk about science, well, the fact that the majority of people online openly reveal their geneder is about as good as an established fact as you can get in the world of human behavior. 



Submitted: Five random pieces of fiction written by me.

Algorithim predicted Author is...

Male four times.

Female once.

Actual author gender: Female.

Err... and you say this is supposed to be 80% accurate? It was wrong 80% of the time. I know only five pieces isn't terribly much, but according to that I'm male!! Well maybe it's because I identify as lesbian. :P



#116802 Imoen's sexuality

Posted by Zandilar on 17 May 2004 - 05:53 AM in Imoen Relationship

Heya,

It's interesting to note that in the film Troy, Archilles, who in the book Illiad has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend.  It is hardly surprising that a game which probably relies heavily on American sales has failed to mention homosexuality in a big way when this would of course lead to the bible belt (covering of 40% of America last I recall) steering a wide course around the product.

Don't get your worlds confused.  The fact that the largest buyer of this type of product also happens to have a fairly large, and in some cases verging on zealot, christian community, would have quite some influence on anything produced in the gaming arena.  If it's enough to scare a major hollywood film company, then what chance does a small developer stand?



I also understand they managed to keep actual deific participation to a bare minimum. (Haven't seen Troy yet, but I'm planning to go see it this week sometime.)

But yes, marketing is definitely something that big businesses have to keep in mind when publishing something. Which is why we don't get blatant mentioned of homosexuality in computer games, role playing source materials, and (generally) novels associated with them.

Hasbro is a big company, and they have specific policies against presenting homosexuality or anything that might be regarded as adult in nature... Though there are exceptions (ie: The Book of Vile Darkness and The Book of Exalted Deeds both of which deal with adult concepts, but both have labels on them clearly warning of such content - besides which book publication is slightly different to game publication since there is no rating system for books)...

The BG saga however, is a little bit harder to pin down. The licensing company was basically in a state of flux during the development. (TSR => WotC => Hasbro)... Policies weren't as pinned down as they are now (no festhalls in Hordes of the Underdark for example. There was one but it was taken out at Hasbro's insistence - now I KNOW there are festhalls in Waterdeep!)...

However, having said that... In the world of fan fiction and game mods, anything goes. There is no pressure from Christian (and other) zealots not to put stuff in them that might not be acceptable to the so-called "moral majority".



#105673 Most 'Redeemable' BG - SoA - ToB villain

Posted by Zandilar on 23 March 2004 - 09:00 PM in Longer Road

Heya,

Just a couple of points...

1) Jon Irenicus would not end up in the Abyss after his death. He would merely cease to be. He has no soul, and no divine spark... The former was reclaimed by CHARNAME, the latter had been stripped by the Seldarine.

2) Bioware seem to either not understand how FR's afterlife works, or they like the idea of certain individuals having "special fates" with regards to that. Even if Jon had a soul, he would not have ended up in the Abyss... Unless he was faithful to some CE deity. (Or he accepted the offer of a Tanar'ri while his soul was queued up on the Fugue Plane awaiting Kelemvor's judgement.)

3) I had something to say about Drizzt, but for some reason I fergetted it. :D

Take all I have written with a grain of salt, as you should all things written on the internet! :) (Plus I'm working on memory today, I don't have my books with me.)

EDIT: This isn't to say that there can't be a reasonable explanation for Jon's continued existance after SoA. Just don't brush it under the rug, though... I hate that. ;) It's important to know how he survived!



#141790 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 04:05 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Tyr came from another Prime Material world, but I don't think we've ever been told it's name.

Waukeen wasn't destroyed during the Time of Troubles, she gave her portfolio and much of her divine essence to her friend Llira and thus managed to escape to the planes.  There she tried to strike a deal with Graz'zt, but trusting a creature of immense evil isn't exactly a good idea (obviously Waukeen lost most of her sanity as well as her powers :P).  He quickly betrayed and imprisoned her.

But what was known about her fate to their followers from Toril ? In TOB, some characters refer to Waukeen as to a dead goddess. It's another inconsistency or the mortals thought she was dead ?



At the time of BG2 (either 1368DR or 1369DR IIRC), Waukeen is still languishing in Graz'zt's prison, and Lliira is currently granting spells to her faithful. Waukeen is not actually dead, she's just... umm... not a god at the time for all intents and purposes*. She's rescued in 1371DR.

The current (pen and paper) game year is 1372DR. :)

* What use is she for Gratz'zt then, I hear you ask? Well she knows a lot about lost wealth and where it could be found, despite not having her godhood... Wealth that could be power if in the right hands. (I think that's the reason given in For Duty and Deity, but it's been a while since I've owned that module.)



#143735 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 20 August 2004 - 05:51 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

The "For Duty and Deity" adventure is available for download at the WotC site:
http://wizards.com/d...d/dnd/downloads


Oh cool, I didn't realise they had made it a free download. For Duty and Deity was one of my favorite modules... I have no idea why I ever gave it away. ><



#141925 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 05:22 PM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Is it possible for a mortal to ascend if he gets enough people to worship him?



Anyone who wishes to ascend to godhood has to get Ao's approval*.  (It helps to have a divine sponsor - such as Finder Wyvernspur who had Tymora as a patron, and he defeated Moander to become a demi-god.)

* Which means that any potential new deity needs to either fit into Ao's idea of "balance" or serve Ao's idea of "balance". Also, the new deity can't overlap portfolios with another demigod (though the new deity can overlap with greater deities, but they'd find themselves serving them. :))

I have played one RPG system that included such "priests of themselves" (They "attracted lightning" a lot but could do incridible things at high levels) but I don't know if the trick works in Fearun as well.


I'm pretty sure that trick won't work in Faerun. The PC would need to be a god to grant themselves powers. :P



#141795 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 13 August 2004 - 04:29 AM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Well she was'nt answering prayers or granting spells and divinations were inconclusive, so the faithful of Waukeen assumed she was dead.


Actually, the strongest and most faithful of her priests never lost faith (which is pretty much where the module For Duty and Deity started - one of Waukeen's faithful had a vision of her trapped by Graz'zt)... and Lliira went to great lengths to make sure Waukeen's clergy knew that she was only holding onto this portfolio in trust for Waukeen (in other words, that she felt that Waukeen would eventually return).

Someone mentioned above that their has been a sort of 'schism' between Llira and Waukeen (who were best friends before ToT), Any1 care to elaborate on this, cos the last time i checked (2ed F&A), Llira actually hoped that Waukeen would return.


Well the strange thing is, when I went and looked it up, Faiths and Pantheons (the 3rd Edition God Book) practically contradicts itself... Here are the relevant bits:



Waukeen

History/Relationships: At the Time of Troubles Waukeen was still a relatively young deity with few enemies other than Mask, whose portfolio naturally opposed hers. As such, it was quite unexpected that Waukeen was never seen during the Time of Troubles and never reclaimed her mantle following its conclusion. The truth behind her disappearance is that she conspired with Lliira to leave her divine mantle behind and escaped to the Astral Plane with the aid of a deity from another world. Once on the Astral Plane, she intended to make her way back to her realm via the Abyss through the purchased aid of the demon lord Graz'zt. However, Graz'zt betrayed her, making her his prisoner, and it was not until she was rescued by daring adventurers in 1371DR that she regained her divinity. Waukeen has since revitalized and reassured her worshipers of her existance and her restored divine power. She is very closely with Lliira (who held her portfolio in trust while she was imprisoned), Gond (whose inventions she appreciates), and Shaundakul (whose portfolio complements hers). Aside from Mask, her only true enemy is Graz'zt, against whom she has sworn her eventual revenge.



Lliira

History/Relationships: Lliira's greatest friend in the Faerun pantheon is Milil who shares her flare for perfomance. Once a great friend of the commerce goddess Waukeen, Lliira even went as far as to absorb many of the disaffected clerics of the Merchant's Friend when that goddess vanished during the Time of Troubles. Upon her return, however, Waukeen jealously coverted those clerics who had converted to Lliiranism, and the resulting ill will has formed a slight rift between the former companions. The murder of Selgaunt's High Revelmistress Chalanna Asjros (whom Lliira had taken as a lover while in mortal form during the Time of Troubles) by forces of Loviatar has deeply affected the Joybringer. A militant order known as the scarlet mummers now tours Faerun with her support, dispatching agents of the Maiden of Pain by means of an elaborate and deadly dance utilizing the mummers' blade boots.




#141729 Gods!

Posted by Zandilar on 12 August 2004 - 03:43 PM in Delusions of the Mind

Tyr came from another Prime Material world, but I don't think we've ever been told it's name.


Tyr is the same god as Tyr from the Norse pantheon. So he's yet another Earth Based Interloper.

However, it might be worth it to note that the Norse Tyr was the god of Law. The Norse god of Justice was Forseti...


Waukeen wasn't destroyed during the Time of Troubles, she gave her portfolio and much of her divine essence to her friend Llira and thus managed to escape to the planes.  There she tried to strike a deal with Graz'zt, but trusting a creature of immense evil isn't exactly a good idea (obviously Waukeen lost most of her sanity as well as her powers :P).  He quickly betrayed and imprisoned her.


Waukeen has since been rescued from Graz'zt (by a band of adventurers, no less... (There was a module with that very goal - "For Duty and Deity")), and has returned to the Realms and recovered her portfolio from Lliira - jealousy has now caused a rift between the two former friends (many Waukeenar converted to Lliiraism during that time, but did not convert back).



#142702 The new and "improved" Viconia romance.

Posted by Zandilar on 17 August 2004 - 12:46 AM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

Judging from your tone, you obviously don't appreciate a mere difference of opinion.


People are allowed to disgaree, Longinus. Just so long as you realise that disagreements inherantly mean differing opinions. You don't agree with me or Grim... Fine. That's great. End of story.

There have been some great examples of atrocious mods before now (like Weimer's Solaufein and Lord Mirrabo's Imoen), but this is by far the worst example of someone having the audacity to twist an official character into someone who meets their sexual needs. Tell me why I should find this acceptable?


I haven't played Sola, but I have played Lord Mirabbo's Imoen romance mod. It is not the way I would have gone about doing things, but it's far from atrocious.

You don't have to find it acceptable. But you could have brought your problems to the forum (well actually, you did, way back when this mod was first being talked about) in which the mod lives instead of skulking around then attacking from the shadows. (And why did you wait until now to bring this up (again)? The mod has been in production for quite a while now.)

If people want to introduce gay/bisexual characters into the game, fine. But don't currupt, pollute, poison, or ruin official characters just because you want them to be something they are not.


Longinus, slash fanfic is as old as the Original Star Trek. This is the "mod" equivelant. If you don't like it, you don't have to play it. You don't even have to think about it. In fact it would probably be better if you just forgot that this mod was in production - at least that way you'd stop loosing sleep over it (as you obviously have). Obsessing over this is not making you look very good, and in fact the use of the words "corrupt, pollute, poison, or ruin" almost makes you sound homophobic (NO, I am NOT calling you a homophobe).

Where's the proof showing in no uncertain terms that Viconia is bisexual? The game made it absolutely crystal clear that she prefers men. Have you never met good-looking, sexually aggressive straight women in real life? I have. Not being a prude doesn't automatically amount to being bisexual.


There is at least one conversation she has with Jaheira that has at least a touch of lesbian subtext to it. But I must add, I don't need proof. There's no concrete proof she's straight either, by which I mean to say, Viconia doesn't say she's straight ever - even though she does show a strong preference for men... but being a drow she intereacts with strong females in a different way than she would with men. (Which we don't actually get to see, since Viconia only has one conversation with female PCs.)

Here's the conversation she has with Jaheira...

Jaheria: Avert your eyes, dark elf.  I'll not have you taint the beauty of the wood with your poison gaze.

Viconia: Would you deny me even the sight of the trees, Jaheira?  I can appreciate the strength of the oak, even though I would never live amongst them.

Jaheira: I am not to be swayed by your words, creature.  I know too much of you and your kind.

Viconia: Ooo, such delicious fire, though better it was turned on an enemy.  I would be your ally, Jaheira; your strength might even bring you respect among my kind.

Jaheira: Lies.  Such respect would grant me naught but a bigger tombstone, or a nameless grave in a slightly nicer tunnel.

Viconia: Granted you might not live to make that favorable impression, but I still say it is so. Take that as you will.


There's subtext there if you care to look. But I have a feeling you're going to say otherwise. (Literally, it just shows Viconia showing respect for Jaheira's spirit, but subtext is a different issue and generally involves the perceptions of the reader which is highly subjective...)

Sorry man, but this "debate" was over before it began. As for the purpose of this topic, I want to know how others feel about this particular mod.


People are entitled to have their opinions, and I respect that and I respect their opinions. But at this stage, there isn't anything you or anyone else can say that will stop me from writing this. (I'm my own worst enemy generally, but opposition is more likely to strengthen my resolve than discourage me.)

I just want to remind everyone that slash and femmeslash are old "genres" that have quite a following on the 'net. Viconia won't be the first or the last (literary/movie/comic/game) character to be given a "queer" slant that they show no evidence of (I disagree on the no evidence part, but that's neither here nor there).



#142909 The new and "improved" Viconia romance.

Posted by Zandilar on 17 August 2004 - 02:50 PM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

I apologize in advance for disturbing the peace here, but the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.


This is a bit much, don't you think? "Lest we invite more of its kind into our fold"?

Would you say the same thing about Harry Potter fan fiction that depicts our hero Harry in a relationship with Draco Malfoy? Or maybe Ginny Weasely in a loving and sexual relationship with Hermione Granger? Or would you say the same about other kinds of slash pairings? Dax/Kira? Picard/Riker? Tom/Harry? Xena/Gabrielle? Sam Carter/Janet Fraiser?

I never thought this mod would actually leave the concept stages given how unbelievable it is. Also, I'm not the most active member of this community anymore, so I don't visit this place as often as I once did. What does it matter anyway? It's not as if people aren't free to critique mods whenever they want.


When you look at the original thread, you'll see that three people disagreed strongly (you, Sev, and a guest called Sean)... but everyone else was kind of supportive.

Obsessing over this is not making you look very good...


Whatever gave you that impression? I'm not obsessed: I'm annoyed. There's a difference.


The fact that you brought it up on another forum? The fact that this isn't the first time you've argued against homosexuality/bisexuality in a mod?

The source of my annoyance is not your freedom to write a pornographic work of fiction, but the mindset that inspires someone to rewrite a pre-existing character without giving a thought to their true identity. Why is it so impossible to keep a character in character? Turning Viconia into someone who will sleep with anything isn't believable in any way, shape or form. Write your own character instead of twisting an official one into someone who fits your vision of her. By turning Viconia into something she is not (bisexual) you're simply turning her into nothing more than your own personal fantasy. Women are more than mere sex objects you know?


EXCUSE ME? You certainly have nerve don't you?

Who said this was pornographic? You have no idea. You obviously don't know me, but you've already jumped to ugly conclusions about me.

This mod is not porn. It's not even going near porn...

You claim that Viconia views other women in a more positive light simply because women are the dominent gender in Drow society. The truth of the matter is she sees other women as potential rivals.


No, I didn't say that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I just said she'd view a female differently to a male and didn't elaborate. Yes, there's a much more subtle power struggle that goes on between female drow... But please remember Viconia isn't a typical drow (she's been away from drow society for more than 70 years - even if she spent a good amount of that time in the underdark!)...

The beauty of Viconia's character was that she was indoctrinated by Drow culture to practically despise men, and yet at the same time, she's a slave to her lust for/attraction to men. Was everything we learned about Viconia a lie? Your mod will make her inner struggle against ingrained Drow cultural norms and values meaningless.


No, my mod will not do that. Because it's more than just treating males as inferior. There's no room for love or trust in drow society, and I think the struggle to accept those two feelings is more important to her story than her sexual desires. And even if this mod was just to expand a friendship with a female, would you object and say it makes that part of her story meaningless? I mean, I'm playing a female here, I don't get to see this struggle against "ingrained Drow cultural norms and values" if I play a female PC...

Her story is not just about sex. Her story would still make sense if she romanced a female.

You call that proof?


No, I call it subtext... And I already said that subtext is subjective. What I see in the lines I quoted, it's obvious that you don't see it.

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, Viconia despises elves/half elves more than she does men. Why on Earth would she hit on a half elven female in the light of everything we know about her? In actual fact, this rewrite is based on what we don't know about her.


Umm... she still romances half-elf males.

Dear God, not this nonsensical reasoning again. By your logic every character we encounter in the game could potentially be bisexual merely because they don't advertise their heterosexuality/homosexuality.


Okay, so maybe it is a bit of a silly argument in the face of Viconia throwing herself at males within the game. But you also have to remember that the writers are constrained by the self-censorship rules of the company they work for. So we will never see (in a Dungeons and Dragons computer game) examples homosexual or bisexual characters. That is the reason why there's no advertising. And because you are of the opinion that unless we see it, it doesn't exist - that means according to you no one in the Forgotten Realms (of computer games) is bisexual or homosexual.

(The print version of the Realms is a different kettle of fish.)

This could apply to any number of fictional female characters you happen to find attractive. Is nothing sacred? The truth of the matter is you and the people who support the creation of this mod *want* Viconia to be bisexual. If that's the case, then you don't need to justify yourself to anyone. Just admit it.


Nope. Nothing is sacred. See that list of slash pairings I put at the start of this message? That's just a small sample of slash available on the 'net.

I am doing this mod because I want to and because I feel there is something there to work with. If I didn't see it, I wouldn't be doing this mod. I don't need to justify myself, as you said.

The one thing I cannot understand is people's tolerance towards this mod. Feel free to tear my arguments apart. If I write another lengthy post regarding this mod, dare I say it will be in the appropriate forum.


It wouldn't matter if people tollerated it or not. I'm not doing this for everyone else out there, I'm doing it for me. What next? You want people to come out and send hate mail to the dirty lezzy mod writer? :rolleyes:



#144477 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 22 August 2004 - 02:10 PM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

I never said 'unnatural', or 'wrong', as a matter of act, I said it is highly likely that sexual orientation is coded in the genes (therefore, it is natural). The fact that a thing happens, doesn't mean it should happen. And yes, I still believe paladins should not be allowed to sleep with a man or a woman just for the f***.

The question is not whether a simple human should do it, rather on whether a paladin should do it. And I think, that even LadyLeFay (the author of the mod) sees something unfitting in a paladin not having straight affairs, since Keldorn wants to 'turn Dante straight'.



Well, the author has also asked that we let this go, but I just want to say that I think you're looking at this issue through Real World ™ eyes, and what applies on Earth may not apply on Abeir-Toril.

We have some really screwed up social mores regarding sex and sexuality here on Earth... Let me give you an example of a paladin who may not be chaste or celibate.

A paladin of Sune. Sune is a CG goddess who has paladins. She's pretty much the exception to the rule that Paladins must follow a god who is within one step of LG (which is to say, LG, LN, and NG).

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)

Actually, I was thinking Dante might be well suited to Her - since at least some of his issues come from his sexuality, and who he comes to love. Sune definitely doesn't condem homosexuality, since She is the goddess of all love. Also, a Paladin of Sune might find him/herself in some interesting conflicts with both Keldorn (who is a paladin of Torm) and Anomen (who is a cleric/fighter (not paladin) of Helm (?)) - Torm is LG and Helm is LN. While a paladin of Sune would still be LG, Her dogma is not lawful by any stretch. :)

Does Dante have a deity yet? :)



#144865 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 24 August 2004 - 12:36 AM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

I have no problem the sexuality of charichters.
the ethics of a paladin being gay could make for an intresting story


Definitely. :)


The ethics of being a straight paladin would be just as interesting, since there is no god in the Realms who has a problem with sexual orientation. Sorry. That is just the way it is. :rolleyes: Alignment doesn't influence sexual orientation either. In short, a paladin being homosexual is as much a non-issue as a paladin being heterosexual. Having a loving relationship with someone of the same gender is not an issue in the Realms. (I wonder how many ways I have to say it before people start to believe me?)

Sune is the goddess of beauty, love, and passion. Paladins who worship her are probably not celibate, and definitely not chaste... since they have to be open to love in all of its forms (as part of her dogma). They probably tend more towards "Courtly Love" (not in the strictest definition, because Sune believes in love being consumated as well. Loving from afar is all very well, but it's a lot better if that love is two way.)


Sharess is also a CG deity of hedonism, love etc etc. Perhaps it might be a good idea to look into her description as well and see if you can make something out of it for the paladin story?


Sune is the only Chaotic deity who has paladins. :)

Sharess is the goddess of hedonism, sensual fulfilment, festhalls, and cats... She does not have paladins.



#145146 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 24 August 2004 - 01:43 PM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

Let's see:

asides from being gay:

- He's the son of a farmer.

- dead loyal to his mentor (Who is a second father)

- sees undead as poor souls trapped in rotting bodies -- his duty to relieve their suffering by killing them.


He'd know that lesser undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are just animated corpses - their souls having fled when they initially died. (He'd have learnt that when he gained his paladin training.)

- a love of unicorns.

- VERY naive about intimacy.

- used to be bullied by his much stronger twin sister because he's too nice. (she's a monk now) But the twins still love each other.

- dislike Necromancers and arrogant nobles.

- is most likely to suggest the less violent path of many quests.


Is there a particular reason why he chose/was chosen by Lathander to be a Paladin? So far he actually sounds more like a paladin of Ilmater (what with relieving the suffering of undead, and choosing the less violent path, even allowing himself to be bullied fits the Ilmatari profile).

He actually sounds like a fairly standard paladin (actually, on second thoughts, he sounds more like a cleric). Is there something that sets him apart? It could be a quirk or flaw of his personality, it could be an unusual event or experience from his past... Like... You could say he had an encounter with a unicorn at dawn and took it to be a sign that Lathander (especially if Dante was a worshiper of Lathander prior to him taking up the mantle of paladin - and given that pretty much all Realmsians (with few exceptions) have a patron deity, I'd say that's the odds are good that he worshiped the Morninglord) was calling him to service - for instance... (Like he saw him/her from a distance, or even that the unicorn came right up and touched Dante's forehead with his/her horn.)

Hope this makes sense... :)



#144278 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 21 August 2004 - 03:53 PM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

About elelmental lovers -- there are genazi you know... they have to come from somewhere.



Genasi are actually decended from Genie - the Dao, Marid, Efreeti, and Djinni. They're elementally based creatures that live in the elemental planes - they are definitely intelligent (more so than most humanoid races), and quite powerful (which is why Genasi get an ECL in 3rd Ed). Genasi are more common around Calimport, since that region was ruled by Djinni and Efreeti ages ago.

Genie are definitely humanoid creatures. :)



#143729 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 20 August 2004 - 05:19 AM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

You might be interested to check this message out about attitudes towards non-standard sexualities in the Realms: Ed's Comments

The author of the message is Ed Greenwood (via Jeff Thetford, one of the list mods), the creator of the Forgotten Realms, and the relevant section is where he's addressing me (Alexandra/Zandilar)... For brevity, here's the bit:

Alexandra (or Zandilar; which do you prefer?), yes, the "original" Realms had many lesbian, gay male, inter-race, and multiple-partner unions (as a matter of calm, everyday norm), but these were simply omitted from the printed version because of TSR's standards (which even forced the change of the word "brothel" on my maps to be changed to "festhall"). And no, to everyone, I'm not a lust-fixated man, I was merely taking the National Geographic approach: "I'm merely reporting what the natives are, and do..."


As you can see by that, there would be no issue with a paladin being gay. :) No deity specifically denounces/demonizes homosexuality in the Realms. We are not dealing with Real World Religions here. Don't make the mistake of confusing Abeir-Toril with Earth.

I can also point you in the direction of references to homosexual and polyamorus liasions in FR print, though these are usually kind of hidden and only refered to in passing or implied - if you're interested. (They're mostly 3rd Ed references, though, since somehow things seem to have been relaxed, despite Hasbro being stricter with their "family friendly" policy! (In computer games, the opposite has happened, though, with the Festhall in Waterdeep being eliminated totally from NWN:HotU!))



#111383 Dante NPC Mod planning

Posted by Zandilar on 20 April 2004 - 11:50 PM in IE Modding Discussion

Heya,

:lol:

Well, here's a small sample flirt-bit.

(You felt as though you were being watched--you instinctly turned to where you thought it was coming from, only to peer into Dante's azure eyes)
Dante: oh... hello... <Charname> (he ducked his head as he turned away suddenly -- if you didn't know better, you would swear that he was blushing!)


Erm.. No offence, but you should be using present tense not past tense... Since you are describing what the player sees as they see it, not describing what they saw after they saw it... (ie: You need to write like a DM. :P)

If that makes sense at all. :)



#110713 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 18 April 2004 - 06:33 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,


The original male NPCs from BG2 I have seen called gay/bisexual or had associated slash fiction were Anomen, Haer'Dalis, Valygar and Keldorn. From modded - Solaufein and Kelsey. I would not call either Valygar or Keldorn handsome - personal opinion only, please, no need to argue about that.


Oh, I put "handsome" in inverted commas for a reason. :) There does seem to be a pattern to the types of males who are slashed. Usually they're the most desirable to their female authors for one reason or other. ;)

What is femme slash? Women writing lesbians? It wouldn't occur for the same reason men don't write homosexual males.


Technically the term "slash" only refers to m/m pairings. Femmeslash (also femslash) is used to distinguish f/f.

Oddly enough, I think the authors of slash in general are women - slash or femmeslash... This might have something to do with the fact that good slash (IMHO) generally deals with relationships, and not just smut. :)

My attempts at serious fiction have included homosexual males, as have a few of my less serious pieces (I don't write erotica). Of straight male authors of Science Fiction and Fantasy, I can recall sexually active gay male character treated well by Robert Heinlein, Jack L. Chalker, Philip Jose Farmer, and others. The point being, male authors do include gay male characters when the story calls for it, both in erotic and mainstream fiction.


I write erotica when the mood moves me, I just don't write about men (and I'm female if you hadn't guessed, and lesbian). There are always exceptions, I was merely noting that the majority of slash seems to be written by women. :) This isn't to say that males couldn't write Slash, just that they don't do it very often.

At any rate, I wasn't talking about professional mainstream fiction or erotica... Slash (in general) grew out of Fanfiction. By it's very definition, all slash is amateur -

"Taking two MALE characters, from a television series, movie, comic, anime, book, etc., and "pairing" them together, usually for sexual acts." (from UrbanDictionary.com)

"Slash fiction is fan fiction, describing homosexual pairings between media characters, often in explicit detail, and very frequently outside the canon of the source. The name arises from the use of the "/" character in phrases such as "Kirk/Spock" to describe the stories. ("Kirk/Spock" is widely thought to be the first type of slash fiction, first appearing in the 1970s in Star Trek fanzines.)" (From Wikipedia)

I don't exactly see stories written about copyrighted and/or trademarked characters being published professionally, except without express permission of the owners of the copyright and/or trademark... (And usually they have creative control over what the characters may or may not do, and homosexuality isn't exactly accepted... yet.)



#110626 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 17 April 2004 - 05:45 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Isn't it interesting that the majority of BG2 female NPCs have either been depicted as bisexual or lesbian in fan-fic or created as sexually agressive bi- or lesbian women by modders, yet poor Minsc, Korgan and Jan are never depicted as randy gay men on the make?
;)


Oh it IS very interesting, actually. Did you know that the majority of slash authors are women? I am not sure if this also applies to femmeslash, which is a good deal rarer than just straight slash.

However, those characters that tend to get slashed are the "handsome" ones... I could see Anomen and Keldorn subject to slashing... Interesting that you didn't mention either of them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the majority of modders be male? This might be a factor.

Oh well, interesting thoughts. :)



#110894 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 19 April 2004 - 03:01 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

Zandilar, you've written female erotica but no femslash?  Wait, I don't really want to know the answer.  Has any of this erotica seen the light of day?  At your discretion, I would certainly be interesting in browsing a piece or two.

I suppose slash is unappealing to me because it defies the image I have of the male NPC's in question and, ultimately, because most of what I have seen is spoof.  I do know that it is not because I have anything against homosexual sex (as it is, in fact, quite arousing... probably for the same reasons lesbian sex is arousing to men).



In fact, I do write femmeslash... I have some publicly published, and some privately published (private mailing list's archive, in fact)... It's Knights of the Old Republic (PC/Bastila) and Alien Ressurection (Ripley/Call). :) I have other things - Baldur's Gate (PC/Imoen, Jaheira/Viconia), Xena (guess who), Babylon 5 (Ivanova/Talia Winters), Neverwinter Nights (PC/Aribeth), general Forgotten Realms (The Seven Sisters (various parings and not with each other, except for one story), Alusair/Caladnei) - that were either never completed or just never saw the light of day online... The  NWN fic was actually posted to the Bioware boards back in the day, but I never did complete it. :(

As for just erotica? Hmmm... I have one piece of a rather BDSM nature that probably won't see the light of day since I'm pretty conflicted over it, and it deals with a pair of characters who are in a novel I've been working on for a while. :)



#110246 is it a question of taste

Posted by Zandilar on 16 April 2004 - 05:22 AM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,

**Warning, mild spoilers for NWN: Hordes of the Underdark, the Return of the Archwizards trilogy of Realms books, and the Baldur's Gate novel trio are contained within this message.**

Please... While the Realms do have some areas that bear a remarkable resemblance to several parts of our world, Abeir-Toril is not Earth. :)

Here is what Ed Greenwood himself had to say about sexuality in the Realms (you'll have to scroll down - but it's the bit specifically addressing me), and here is another post from Ed (the second one on the page) about marriage, including religiously sanctioned one night stands.

Now, before you all go "pooh pooh, isn't that randy old goat Elminster this guy's mary sue (or is that gary stu?) and therefore he's incapable of making a comment, because he's just this horny old guy?" You also need to remember that Ed Greenwood is the guy who made the Realms in the first place!

TSR, WotC, and now Hasbro have had rather strict "Family Friendly" policies (the latter being the strictest), which means that aspect of the Realms has been scrupulously kept out of print - though sometimes this gets by-passed by particularly clever writers. So you'll probably never see an openly gay, bi, lesbian, or polyamorus person in print, even though there should be. (There are four exceptions I can think of off the top of my head, 1) The description of Elversult in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (pg143), for an example of "clever" (blatant IMHO!) wording... Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklin, both women. At the time the FRCS first came out, Sean K Reynolds on the Realms-L list would not comment beyond "read it however you want"; 2) The implied polygamous relationship at the end of the Return of the Archwizards series... I don't know how they missed that one; 3) The portrayal of Imoen in (godawful) Philip Athans and (not-so-godawful-but-still-fairly-painful) Drew Karpyshyn's Baldur's Gate trio of books; 4) the implied polygamous relationship at the end of Hordes of the Underdark if the male PC has romanced both Nathyrra and Aribeth.)

The fact of the matter is, Abeir-Toril is nothing like Earth. For a start, they don't have certian real life religions that have dominated Earth society for thousands of years... Instead they have such deities as Sune, who is the goddess of passion, beauty and love...  Lliira, the godess of joy, festivals, and dancing. The original party deity! Sharess, who is the goddess of sensual pleasures, festhalls (a nice way of saying brothels), and patroness of courtesans (a nice way of saying prostitutes)... In fact, Sharess's main temple is in Calimport - make of that what you will!

Ironically enough, Zandilar is also another name for Sharess... Zandilar was a Yuirwood deity, worshiped by elves who lived there long ago. She was kind of like a more pleasure centered love deity, very fickle... At one point, these deities were at war with the drow gods, and they were loosing. So in an attempt to help distract Vhaeraun, Zandilar went to him and tried to seduce him. Unfortunately he saw through her ploy and was able to subdue her. He was about to absorb her when Bast came along, and basically together Zandilar and Bast were able to fight him off. Unfortunately she had been severely weakened in the battle, and basically allowed Bast to absorb the last of her divinity... (Zandilar is not the first deity Bast/Sharess has absorbed, by the way)... This being done, Bast continued on hspellholdstudios.neter way, having a strong bout of wanderlust... At some point she came under the sway of Shar, and people started to equate her to the Harbinger of Shar... and started to call her Sharess accordingly. Sharess became darker and she seemed to loose some kind of spark that had been in her, in many ways she was slowly fading. Eventually she would have become just another aspect of Shar (absorbed by the greater power), but then the Time of Troubles occured. Sharess took on the Pasha's favorite concubine as her Avatar and partied hard... Until Shar arrived, fresh from fighting her sister Selune in Waterdeep. As she was about to absorb Sharess once and for all, Sune arrived and poured a goblet of water over Sharess. The water in the goblet had come from the Evergold (a magical fountian that is shared by Sune, Aphrodite, and Hanali Celanil among other beauty/love deities), and it seemed to restore the joy and beauty Sharess had lost in her time under Shar's sway. Sharess was finally able to be rid of the taint of Shar, and has made quite a come back as far as popularity is concerned.

Well... I guess that doesn't have much to say about the proposed mod, and more to say of the treatment of sex and sexuality in the Realms (and the history of Zandilar and Sharess)... I must say I like the idea of this mod. :)



#135408 Improved Aerie romance

Posted by Zandilar on 25 July 2004 - 05:12 PM in IE Mod Ideas

Heya,


I think the "Wish" spell could do it. Of course, if the player has low wisdom and gets the words of the wish wrong, it could lead to an interesting quest  (do you remember Malicant the chicken :P ?)

This would be a fair add-in to the Unfinished Business mod; the original Aerie plot offered you a chance to turn her into a bird and let her fly away, as life on the ground was so unbearable.

Personally I think it was a bad idea and best dropped (a "romantic" mercy killing as a solution to an emotional problem), but it would be very easy to put back in the game


Why bother with that? Aerie has the ability to heal herself at some point. :) So can Jaheira (not sure if Viconia actually gets this spell). Of course, any caster who can cast Wish can simulate Regenerate!

Regenerate (Necromancy)
Reversible


Sphere: Necromantic
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 3 rounds
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Saving Throw: None

When a regenerate spell is cast, body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even the heads of multi-headed creatures), bones, and organs grow back. The process of regeneration requires but one round if the severed member(s) is (are) present and touching the creature, 2d4 turns otherwise. The creature must be living to recieve the benefits of this spell. If the severed member is not present, or if the injury is older than one day per caster level, the recipient must roll a successful system shock check to survive the spell.

The reverse, wither, causes the member or organ touched to shrivel and cease functioning in one round, dropping off into dust in 2d4 turns. Creatures must be touched for the harmful effect to occur.

The material components of this spell are a prayer device and holy water (or unholy water for the reverse).


For those wondering, yes... Wings are limbs, they are concidered members. They would be restored by this spell.



#152904 3E vs AD&D

Posted by Zandilar on 15 September 2004 - 10:36 PM in Delusions of the Mind

Heya,

Hmm... I have done some "in depth" study of the Raise Dead line of spells in 3.5e, and come to some interesting conclusions - even in the Forgotten Realms, someone able to cast Raise Dead is not easy to come by...

Raise Dead is a 5th level spell, which means that a cleric needs to be at least 9th level to cast the spell. The Priest or the person requiring the Priest to cast the spell must provice 5000gp worth of diamonds as a spell component that will be consumed in the casting!!!

The 5000gp worth of diamonds is not a cost, it's not what the priest charges, it's actually a spell component - think of it as a sacrifice directly offered (and taken) by the god granting the spell.

Now, lets use Baldur's Gate as an example. Baldur's Gate is a metropolis with a population of 42,103 people.

The rules in the 3.5e DMG suggest that at a minimum, the highest level cleric for that sized community would be 13th level, while at maximum, the highest level cleric for that sized community would be 18th level... But because this is such a large community, there are actually four clerics of the highest level. Now, if the highest level clerics were 15th level...

Beneath those four are 8 7th level clerics, 16 4th level clerics, 32 2nd level clerics, and a whopping 64 1st level clerics. So, out of a city with a population of 42,103 people, we can see that there are a grand total of... 4 clerics capable of casting Raise Dead (they are also capable of casting Ressurection, but not True Ressurection)... of course, this is not taking into account any special residents that may also make Baldur's Gate home.

(Of course, if the four highest clerics are 18th level, there'd be 8 9th level clerics, which would mean that there would be 12 clerics in Baldur's Gate capable of casting Raise Dead or better - however, I'm just using static numbers, there could be 1 18th level cleric (2 9th level clerics), 1 16th level (2 8th level clerics), 1 14th level (2 7th level), and 1 13th level (2 6th level) as the highest clerics in the city - for a total of just 6 capable of casting Raise dead of better)


I hope I haven't lost you in all that. :)

On top of that, you then have Role Playing concerns. How many of those clerics are available to a person off the street? Have the PCs done something that would make that church think positively of them? Are some of those clerics involved in churches that the PCs have offended or are opposed to? What kind of service or cost will the church impose on the PCs who have requested their help? Raising the dead should never be easy.

I can see doing without the monitary cost for raise dead (but not for Gate or Imprisonment).  The way I would handle it is that the character comes back with 1 hp, and 1 constitution, and regains constitution at 1 point per day of bedrest.  In addition, the cleric must roleplay out the request and give a convincing prayer.  The deity also has every right to refuse the request if the raised character is of the wrong alignment or ethos.  A badly done request or too many raise dead spells in the same campaign can result in the deity slapping the priest back a few levels or the priest falling out of favor.


A quick look in the Players Handbook reveals that Temporary Ability Damage comes back at a rate of 1 point per full night's rest (8 hours), or 2 points per day (24 hours) of complete bed rest.

Also imposing that penalty goes against the established rules for the spells concerned. Raise Dead has the following penalties: You loose a level, or 2 points of Constitution (permanently) if 1st level. A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its hit dice (so 1 point if 1 HD or level 1, or 2 points if 2 HD or level 2 etc). Magical diseases and curses are not undone by this process (though normal poisons are neutralised and ordinary diseases are cured). Any missing parts from the body, such as lost limbs, are not restored by this spell. Raise Dead can't bring back to life those who have been made into Undead (even if killed again), or those who were killed by a death effect (such as Finger of Death). Constructs, Elementals, Outsiders, and Undead can't be raised by the spell, and it cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Which is one of the balances on clerical spells that frequently gets lost.  High-level clerical spells are requests for aid from the deity. The spell must be cast to aid the ethos of the deity. It is quite possible that Lathander might not want the Lawful-Evil Necromancer in the party to benefit from Heal. An evil deity might prefer to let the Good paladin or ranger die.  Mages don't have to worry about being in anyone's favor so they can cast what they want, when they want, and how they want to with impunity.


The philosophy for 3rd Edition is that a numerical benefit (or penalty) cannot be balanced by a role playing penalty (or benefit)... For the game to be fairly balanced, it needs to be based on cold hard rules. Spells work regardless of whom they are being cast on - the god might have a few words to say to their priest later (in the form or a vision or an omen), but I seriously doubt they'd hold back a spell they'd already granted. (That's why priests pray for spells at the same time each day - it's the same as a wizard memorising a spell, which is why clerics don't cast spells like sorcerers.)