Picking (a) god(s)

Okay, as some of you may know I am working on the Mod for the Wicked.

Kido has got his god. Now I request help for the other. I thought I rather post it here then at MftW as I reckon this to have more viewers Realist here.

Okay, so first one up (with three questions actually):

Ariena. NE Pit Fighter. There is a dialogue where she says she spits on gods, cause they never helped her. However, I do not know if there is something like an evil version of 3E god Kord in AD&D. (1) If there is she might pay homage to him being a pit fighter. Thus is there such a god?

(2) If not, what god you reckon for a ferocious pit fighter who feels left behind. Loviatar perhaps? Maiden of Pain, agony and such. Ilmater is too soft for her, if you know what I mean.

(3) Then last question regarding Ariena. Is it possible that a god still may protect a mortal not ending up the wall of the faithless even though that mortal did not really pay homage to this deity? Like Valygar still receiving spells though being quite agnostic.


Second one up. Quite delicate matter. I will keep going on with the numbers to make clear later on what people are answering to.

(4) What gods were there about 500 years before the Times of Trouble present that supported paladins? I know Amauntor, but are there any more?

(5) Ian is betrayed by his own friend in the order, due to love (yes he won't like romancing types). He wishes to avenge his death. He realizes all are gone, but the descedants might be there. Perhaps even children of the love he now probably lost to his (fallen) paladin friend. He is bend on revenge. Thus fallen he has become, corrupted during all those 500 years. He needs a new god to fuel his powers, something Blackguard like. Which god his a good choice. He will become LE as to oaths he will still hold.

(6)Just to check. The Bleak Academy has no real history record. Is it save to assume that it was at least possible that necromancers where already then in existence and that there were a school for all dark souls, about 500 years before the the Time of Troubles?

Thanks, for all replies and comments

Ariena. NE Pit Fighter. There is a dialogue where she says she spits on gods, cause they never helped her. However, I do not know if there is something like an evil version of 3E god Kord in AD&D. (1) If there is she might pay homage to him being a pit fighter. Thus is there such a god?

(2) If not, what god you reckon for a ferocious pit fighter who feels left behind. Loviatar perhaps? Maiden of Pain, agony and such. Ilmater is too soft for her, if you know what I mean.

I would think Bane would be an appropriate god for your Neutral Evil pit fighter as he has a following among evil fighters, and not likely to be put off by Ariena's disrespect for the gods in general.

Loviatar, is as much representative of psychological pain such as political and romantic betrayal, than physical suffering. She doesn't seem as likely a choice for your pit fighter.

Has Bane not died during the Time of Troubles? What does Bane promote? Is it possible for her to have heard of him, while fighting in pits near Luskan?

Sorry for the many following up questions

Bane died during the Times of Troubles, he was killed by Torm and vice versa IIRC. Sorry, I don't know what he promotes though.

Bane died during the Times of Troubles, he was killed by Torm and vice versa IIRC. Sorry, I don't know what he promotes though.

So replace Bane with Xvim...

[quote name='Deathsangel' date='Apr 24 2005, 01:41 PM']
Okay, as some of you may know I am working on the Mod for the Wicked.

Ariena. NE Pit Fighter. There is a dialogue where she says she spits on gods, cause they never helped her. However, I do not know if there is something like an evil version of 3E god Kord in AD&D. (1) If there is she might pay homage to him being a pit fighter. Thus is there such a god?

(2) If not, what god you reckon for a ferocious pit fighter who feels left behind. Loviatar perhaps? Maiden of Pain, agony and such. Ilmater is too soft for her, if you know what I mean.

(3) Then last question regarding Ariena. Is it possible that a god still may protect a mortal not ending up the wall of the faithless even though that mortal did not really pay homage to this deity? Like Valygar still receiving spells though being quite agnostic./quote]

It's possible that Tempus (CN) would do. However, I believe there is a CE god of fighters and berserkers, who might be what you want. Although I only play FR PnP one of my friends regularly DMs a game, so I'll check with him to find out the name, domains, and other information.

[quote]Second one up. Quite delicate matter. I will keep going on with the numbers to make clear later on what people are answering to.

(4) What gods were there about 500 years before the Times of Trouble present that supported paladins? I know Amauntor, but are there any more?

(5) Ian is betrayed by his own friend in the order, due to love (yes he won't like romancing types). He wishes to avenge his death. He realizes all are gone, but the descedants might be there. Perhaps even children of the love he now probably lost to his (fallen) paladin friend. He is bend on revenge. Thus fallen he has become, corrupted during all those 500 years. He needs a new god to fuel his powers, something Blackguard like. Which god his a good choice. He will become LE as to oaths he will still hold.[/quote]

I think Jergal was the LN god of death, but whether he had paladins and blackguards I'm not sure. Again, I'll check if my friend knows of any.

If she is a halforc why not any of the Orcish pantheon (e.g. Gruumsh)?

Bane died during the Times of Troubles, he was killed by Torm and vice versa IIRC. Sorry, I don't know what he promotes though.

So replace Bane with Xvim...

Bane promotes tyranny, strife and destruction.

From the book Forgotten Realms: Faiths and Panthenons regarding Bane and Xvim:

On Midwinter night of 1372 DR Xvim burst in a conflagration of diabolical green light.  From the smoking husk of his remains emerged a newly reinvigorated Bane, his right hand ablaze with green fire. Xvim, it appeared had been little more than a sentient cocoon, a shell in which grew a festering larva that would, in time, become Bane. Within days, the Xvimlar clergy had converted to the worship of Bane and a great evil once again cast it's calculating stare across the face of Faerun.

Worship of Bane vs. Xvim would depend on chronology, I suppose.

Death seems to be very relative as it pertains to Bane, however, I would interpret from this that Ariena, or a dedicated follower of Bane could still worship Bane during the period of his "death", and still recieve favorable attention from Xvim.

Hopefully, this hasn't gotten too complicated.

@Thorium Dragon. No, it is not too complicated. It is very clear. However, the Domains I quite wrong for Ariena. Ariena hates being dominated, thus also tyranny. Strife and destruction.

@Celestine Torm also dead? Hm... He is still worshipped (ie Keldorn) and those people receive power.

@Andyr. Ariena has grown up at human settlements. She has no knowledge of the Orc pantheon

@Bluenose. Tempus... I am not quite sure. The other sounds good for Ariena.

Jergal god of death? That portfolio is of Cyric I believe. The god also needs not to have and paladins and blackguards. He must support blackguards. A god(dess) of revenge would be an interessting option, but whom it is?

@Thorium Dragon. No, it is not too complicated. It is very clear. However, the Domains I quite wrong for Ariena. Ariena hates being dominated, thus also tyranny. Strife and destruction.

@Celestine Torm also dead? Hm... He is still worshipped (ie Keldorn) and those people receive power.

@Andyr. Ariena has grown up at human settlements. She has no knowledge of the Orc pantheon

@Bluenose. Tempus... I am not quite sure. The other sounds good for Ariena.

Jergal god of death? That portfolio is of Cyric I believe. The god also needs not to have and paladins and blackguards. He must support blackguards. A god(dess) of revenge would be an interessting option, but whom it is?

This is the one for Ariena.
Garagos the Reaver
CN/E Demigod
Portfoloi: War, skill-at-arms, destruction, plunder.
Domains: Chaos, Destruction, War and Strength.
The goal of every worshipper of Garagos is to be covered in their enemy’s blood at the heart of a conflict they initiated. Garagos is a being of idiot rage, a violent six-armed whirlwind of carnage that seems to exist only to destroy.
Dogma: Peace is for weak fools. War makes all participants strong, and only in head-to-head conflict is honour satisfied. Any who strike from ambush or from behind demonstrate cowardice. Retreat is never an option, even in the face of a greater foe, for if a warrior’s heart is focused on Garagos, the deity wo;; provide strength enough to conquer any enemy.

Jergal was the god of death before Myrkul, and continues acting as a sort of assistant to the god of death till the present day (Realms time). I suspect not really what you want though. Perhaps Shar would do, as patron of loss and oblivion, but I don't know whether she has Blackguards. Otherwise perhaps he could be devoted to a demon or devil lord from the lower planes? There is a god of revenge, I think called Hoar, a N? demipower who is currently being influenced both by Shar and Ilmater to change his alignment. I'll see what else I can find out.

@Celestine Torm also dead? Hm... He is still worshipped (ie Keldorn) and those people receive power.

Torm was killed in battle with Bane during the Time of Troubles. They killed each other actually. However, Torm was later returned to life by Ao whileas Bane wasn't since Ao found out he stole the Tablets of Life (i think) with 2 other evil gods.

However, at a later stage, Bane actually came back to Life. IIRC, he was reborn through his son. I think Nightmare will know that more, my memory's fuzzy on the actual details.

This is the one for Ariena.
Garagos the Reaver
CN/E Demigod
Portfoloi: War, skill-at-arms, destruction, plunder.
Domains: Chaos, Destruction, War and Strength.
The goal of every worshipper of Garagos is to be covered in their enemy?s blood at the heart of a conflict they initiated. Garagos is a being of idiot rage, a violent six-armed whirlwind of carnage that seems to exist only to destroy.
Dogma: Peace is for weak fools. War makes all participants strong, and only in head-to-head conflict is honour satisfied. Any who strike from ambush or from behind demonstrate cowardice. Retreat is never an option, even in the face of a greater foe, for if a warrior?s heart is focused on Garagos, the deity wo;; provide strength enough to conquer any enemy.

Jergal was the god of death before Myrkul, and continues acting as a sort of assistant to the god of death till the present day (Realms time). I suspect not really what you want though. Perhaps Shar would do, as patron of loss and oblivion, but I don't know whether she has Blackguards. Otherwise perhaps he could be devoted to a demon or devil lord from the lower planes? There is a god of revenge, I think called Hoar, a N? demipower who is currently being influenced both by Shar and Ilmater to change his alignment. I'll see what else I can find out.

Garagos number 1 at the list on Ariena. Especially those 'weak fools' and 'thief-like fighting is bad' is akin to Ariena. She destroyed a lot and she also plundered during her travels. Thus Garagos is with head and shoulders number 1. He sounds somewhat alike the 3e god Erythnul.

Uh... Cyric has death. Does Myrkul also have the same portfolio. Or did Cyric not take it from Myrkul?

It also seems you have knowledge like NightMare and Andyr about older gods. Can you also search for an old Paladin god. Not being Amauntor. If the god lives it is nice, but if (s)he is dead it is also okay.

Hoar sounds nice. Shar doesn't sound... right somehow. He has lost his love, but he is also mad at her. So that loss is nihil in that sense.

@Celestine. Bane's rebirth was through his son Xvim. However, I have decided them unfit, as portfolios are wrong and such. Thanks for the help though, as well as Thorium Dragon who also came with Bane.

Edited by Deathsangel, 26 April 2005 - 03:42 AM.

Aumanator had faded to mostly nothing more than 500 years before the time of troubles. His decline begain pritty much at the fall of Netheril.

Jergal was orignially a Greater LE power whose portfolio included all the areas encompased by Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He eventually divided his portfolio among those three.

From TSR1147 "Netheril: Empire of Magic",

2) Another possibility is Hoar, lawful neutral god of revenge and retribution. Then there's Malar, chaotic evil god of hunters, marauding beasts and bloodlust. Or perhaps Gargauth, lawful evil god of outcasts and betrayal.

3) It's possible, but if the mortal in question didn't really worship them, what would the deity's motive be?

4) The major differences between the pantheon of gods 500 years before and after the ToT occured during and shortly after the Time of Troubles - i.e. Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul and the old Mystra dead, Cyric and Midnight (and later Kelemvor and Finder) ascended.

Amauntor died considerably longer ago than 500 years. I don't think there's an official date for his death, but it's somewhere between -339 DR (the fall of Netheril) and 400 DR (the last possible date for the Dawn cataclysm), or in other words 958 - 1697 years before the ToT. I'd personally place it at least into the negative DRs.

The only other god of Netheril who had paladins was Jannath (still around but now known as Chauntea), though being a goddess of nature she didn't have very many.

5) Cyric, Gargauth, Iyachtu Xvim, Loviatar, or Shar could all make interesting choices.

6) Absolutely. The Netherese were studying and practising Necromancy several thousand years before the ToT, so 500 years is no problem .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 27 April 2005 - 06:56 AM.

Amauntor died considerably longer ago than 500 years.  I don't think there's an official date for his death, but it's somewhere between -339 DR (the fall of Netheril) and 400 DR (the last possible date for the Dawn cataclysm), or in other words 958 - 1697 years before the ToT.  I'd personally place it at least into the negative DRs.

I assumed that there was something left of him for longer, as he shows up In BG2, but you are right with the chronology, and it's not like he capable of much of anything by the time you run into him in BG2. BG2 is hardly canon as far as PnP goes, but concerning the nature of this site, it may as well be regarded as such for CRGPs.

For all practical purposes he probably could not not have been a viable god later than 400DR.

Well, avatars can become almost entirely seperate entites from their parent deity, even in pnp. The gods of Unther and Mulhorand were originally merely avatars, who had knowingly cut themselves off from their greater selves to bypass an ancient and powerful spell that prevented them from reaching their followers (who had been broug to Faerun from another world, via a gateway). Ao finally removed the spell after the Time of Troubles and after thousands of years, the avatars finally merged with their parent selves.

I went with the time of the Dawn Cataclysm for the last possible date of Amaunator's death, since I know many people are fond of the theory that Lathander is a "rebirth" of Amaunator, and if that's the case they can't really both be around at the same time .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 26 April 2005 - 05:20 PM.

Thus to analyse:

For Ariena: 1st choice Gargaros, 2nd choice Malar. Still think Gargaros more appropiate.

For Ian: Hoar is thus of very different alignment to Ian CN-LE and I don't reckon him to support Ian as Blackguard then. Cyric somehow strikes me not well, perhaps because Kido is already his worshipper. His portfolio's do have something to do with Ian, but I rather find something else. Xvim hasn't really got the right portfolio's. Gargauth might be of betrayel, but Ian hated being betrayed, so I don't want him to turn to a god with that portfolio. Ian rather hates him.

Loviatar or Shar sound the best options. Thus I need more info on these two I reckon. What do they do? Which one fits best a betrayed man whom therefor became bent on revenge and thus a fallen paladin. A man feeling bitter lonely, one feels love betrayed him. Thus an emotional pained 500 year old fallen paladin now seeking revenge, though not in bloodlust way, but more cold blooded way.

As for Ian's former god, when he was still a paladin, any idea? I don't quite understand why it has to be a Netheril god, to be honest Nightmare. Where this the only worshipped gods back then? Which god would let his order attack a Netheril Bleak Academy?

Once again thanks for all the help! :thumb:

Edited by Deathsangel, 26 April 2005 - 11:51 PM.

Thus to analyse:

For Ian: Hoar is thus of very different alignment to Ian CN-LE and I don't reckon him to support Ian as Blackguard then. Cyric somehow strikes me not well, perhaps because Kido is already his worshipper. His portfolio's do have something to do with Ian, but I rather find something else. Xvim hasn't really got the right portfolio's. Gargauth might be of betrayel, but Ian hated being betrayed, so I don't want him to turn to a god with that portfolio. Ian rather hates him.

Here’s some information about Hoar from the 3rd edition Faiths and Pantheons book.
LN Demigod - note that that's different from 2nd edition, where he is CN.
Portfolio: Revenge, retribution, poetic justice
Worshippers: Assassins, fighters, rogues, seekers of retribution
Domains: Fate, Law, Retribution, Travel
Hoar is a vengeful deity of retribution invoked by those who seek to repay an eye for an eye. He is a moody deity, prone to violence and with a penchant for bitter humour.
Dogma: Uphold true and fitting justice and maintain the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. Fitting recompense will always accrue for ones actions. Violence will meet violence and evil pay back evil, but good will also come to those who do good. Walk the line of the Doombringer’s teachings, seeking retribution, but do not fall into the trap of pursuing evil acts for evil’s sake, for that way is seductive and leads only to one’s downfall. Vengeance must be sought for all injustices, and all punishments must fit the crime. Revenge is sweetest when it is sharpened with irony. All attacks must be avenged. Those who do not respond to attacks against their person or that which they hold dear only invite further attacks.

He looks like a very interesting god for a blackguard who believes that he’s doing justice. It looks as if his dogma opposes random slaughter, while allowing pretty much anything against declared enemies. Perhaps the evil followers are more inclined to pick and choose which injustices to take revenge for, while also taking the revenge further than others would. I also wonder if Charname might end up helping with a seduction to break up a marriage or engagement, or trying to frame someone for murder. That, hurting someone so they suffer for a long time, would also seem like a fitting revenge.

Loviatar or Shar sound the best options. Thus I need more info on these two I reckon. What do they do? Which one fits best a betrayed man whom therefor became bent on revenge and thus a fallen paladin. A man feeling bitter lonely, one feels love betrayed him. Thus an emotional pained 500 year old fallen paladin now seeking revenge, though not in bloodlust way, but more cold blooded way.

As for Ian's former god, when he was still a paladin, any idea? Which god would let his order attack a Netheril Bleak Academy?

Once again thanks for all the help! :thumb:

If you want a paladin god as old as Amaunator, there are only a few choices that I know of. Sune would be possible, and a Sunite paladin betrayed in love might well turn to revenge. Chauntea the Earth Mother has a very few paladins, so might be possible. Lathander is also a very old god, and possibly a rival of Amaunator as a sun god. Slightly less old, but still more than 500 years, you have deities such as Helm, Ilmater, Tyr and Torm, and also Azuth. All of these are still active gods in the realms. I’m sure I’ve seen a listing somewhere of lost and forgotten gods of the realms, but I’m sorry to have to tell you that I can’t track it down.

Loviatar is basically the LE goddess of pain, worshipped by torturers and sadists. Shar is NE goddess of night and loss, somewhat nihilistic.

In some way Hoar seems to be rival of St. Cubhert, who is also of retribution. Though St. Cubhert can be moody he is more steadily, if you know what I mean. However, BG2 uses AD&D gods and there Hoar is CN. Though I give in that he does seem rather nice, but Ian is evil and that seems something Hoar doesn't like, just like Clerics of St. Cubhert may not be evil even though rules-wise they normally should be able to do so.

Ian is a soldier with a request to his senior officer at moments. Though his trust was betrayed he still believes in rules. That chaotic love was the end of him. People do strange things in love. That is his opinion, more or less.

Ian feels somewhat numbed and wishes to feel numbed. No emotion and no pain. So in that way Shar is viable. Loviatar is also I believe goddess of emotional pain, but more perhaps inflicting it then suffering it. That is more Ilmater. However, Ilmater is G in AD&D right?

I thougth that Sune is for love for everyone and didn't mind sharing that much... If not so, does she support people who wish to take revenge out of love even if that makes them go evil. Sune is CG and LE is the exact opposite.

I don't even know actually what Tyr and Torm stand for though I know there names and Azuth is unkown to me.

Edited by Deathsangel, 27 April 2005 - 12:58 AM.

In some way Hoar seems to be rival of St. Cubhert, who is also of retribution. Though St. Cubhert can be moody he is more steadily, if you know what I mean. However, BG2 uses AD&D gods and there Hoar is CN. Though I give in that he does seem rather nice, but Ian is evil and that seems something Hoar doesn't like, just like Clerics of St. Cubhert may not be evil even though rules-wise they normally should be able to do so.

Ian is a soldier with a request to his senior officer at moments. Though his trust was betrayed he still believes in rules. That chaotic love was the end of him. People do strange things in love. That is his opinion, more or less.

Ian feels somewhat numbed and wishes to feel numbed. No emotion and no pain. So in that way Shar is viable. Loviatar is also I believe goddess of emotional pain, but more perhaps inflicting it then suffering it. That is more Ilmater. However, Ilmater is G in AD&D right?

I thougth that Sune is for love for everyone and didn't mind sharing that much... If not so, does she support people who wish to take revenge out of love even if that makes them go evil. Sune is CG and LE is the exact opposite.

I don't even know actually what Tyr and Torm stand for though I know there names and Azuth is unkown to me.

What I was thinking of for Ian’s career is that he might originally have been a paladin of Sune. Although she’s CG she does have an order of paladins. She is the goddess of love and beauty, and encourages her followers to preserve these things, so I think a paladin of Sune would be especially concerned with faithfulness in lovers, Then he’s betrayed by his friend and his lover. Now love has failed him, and he turns away from Sune, becoming a fallen paladin. After that he turns to another god. What he’s concerned with now is his loss, and for that reason I think Shar is the best choice for him. Although revenge isn’t one of Shar’s main areas, she is goddess of loss and darkness. Perhaps it depends on how much revenge matters as opposed to being without pain. If he feels “The world has hurt me, I want that pain to stop,” then he has the right attitude for a follower of Shar. If it’s more “The world has hurt me, and I want to hurt it back,” some other god might be a better choice.

Tyr is the god of justice, chief patron of the Order of the Radiant Heart and other paladin orders. Torm is god of duty and subordinate of Tyr’s, who also sponsors paladins (including Keldorn in BG2). Azuth is a LN god interested in wizards, who has a few paladins who concern themselves with destroying magic users who use exceptionally nasty magic.

note to self: register.