70 replies to this topic

[Azkyroth]

Annoying post after the warning has been removed.

Nothing personal about your post, Grim. Sorry to remove it, just did it because it quoted the old one.

Wouldn't removing the quote from the post have sufficed? Anyway, interpreting that ultimatum as applying to quotes of previous posts which are already a matter of public record doesn't really make a lot of sense...

Anyway, Delight, I don't doubt Arkalian will disappoint you on this score, because while the mod does deal with some of the themes you're discussing, your commentary on the intro movie suggests an inordinate attachment to the "sledgehammer to the face" approach to presenting themes and ideas...

But as long as we're removing posts for content reasons, are there any comparable restrictions on hosted mods? Something to think about before applying, since I seem to invariably collide with such restrictions...

Edited by Azkyroth, 01 May 2006 - 11:22 PM.

[AnnabelleRose]

It was a simple matter of posts containing content that was clearly stated by the forum mod for this forum would be removed... well... being removed.

As for public record not every user that visits this forum has seen those posts.

I will say editing the posts with the offensive content would have been a better move in hindsight. I could have had fun editing the offensive one, and Grim did nothing wrong.

My appology is to him alone, and he is the only one who truly has the right to object to my actions.

[Thauron]

To get back on topic... I agree with Grim that some extended cutscenes at the start of the game wouldn't add much to the game.

Also, I think it is near impossible implement 'torture scenes' in a believable way, especially when it is right at the start of the game. And as I said, I don't even see the point in wanting to do so.

Sometimes mere suggestion (like Bioware did) is far more powerful than an attempt to create realistic scenes to show what and how things exactly happened + it allows children to play 'unendangered' it and suggests enough so adults will have an idea of what happened at the same time. In the case of Irenicus' tortures, Bioware did a good job there, IMO.

[AnnabelleRose]

Good post Thauron.

Alfred Hitchcock proved a person's own imagination is far worse then anything a director/writer can produce.

Psycho is an excellent example. Leave it to the viewer/reader to picture scenes of that calibur in their own mind, and they will draw upon what frightens/disturbs/arouses, etc... them the most.

[Azkyroth]

To get back on topic... I agree with Grim that some extended cutscenes at the start of the game wouldn't add much to the game.

On the contrary, for those of us who use new games to test modding changes, ever, for any reason, that would be more torture than charname suffers...

Also, I think it is near impossible implement 'torture scenes' in a believable way, especially when it is right at the start of the game. And as I said, I don't even see the point in wanting to do so.

Is that a challenge? *smirks* Dialogue after the fact works much, much better than cutscenes, I think...

Sometimes mere suggestion (like Bioware did) is far more powerful than an attempt to create realistic scenes to show what and how things exactly happened + it allows children to play 'unendangered' it and suggests enough so adults will have an idea of what happened at the same time. In the case of Irenicus' tortures, Bioware did a good job there, IMO.

I agree, aside from the implication that children won't understand what's going on or would be harmed by it. I think a better argument for the use of suggestion is that it allows the player's imagination to "fill in the blanks" in a fashion that matches the player's personal idea of "horrible" better than the writer's might, with the added weight of The Oldest and Strongest Kind of Fear.

[Delight]

Forcing people to use their imaginations does sometimes cause certain people's skulls to explode (a bonus, if you ask me), but it's a much more effective tactic than hitting the audience over the head with a "one-size-fits-all" explicit "bad" thing.

I don't know. I rely more on information than on imagination, when I'm reading books/playing cRPGs, so I don't understand what you mean by "forcing people to use their imaginations".

Sometimes mere suggestion (like Bioware did) is far more powerful than an attempt to create realistic scenes to show what and how things exactly happened + it allows children to play 'unendangered' it and suggests enough so adults will have an idea of what happened at the same time.

I don't see any reason why kids would have to play the same game as adults.
It only leads to degradation of game content, because it has to be "safe for kids"..

BTW BG2 is 15+ and by that age teenagers have to read drastic novels for school, so I don't get the "protect the kids" thing.

[Sidhe]

I disagree. It would show people what <CHARNAME> and Immy really went through and would help player in roleplaying <CHARNAME> correctly. Of course "0MG 1 JUST W4NT 4DVenTUr3S & QW3STs11!!!11! LOLOLOL!1!1" people wouldn't like it, but they aren't very important to me anyway .

What they really went through in your opinion, which might not press my buttons at all (believe me, I can probably imagine worse things than you can write - particularly as there is no way that you can get into everyone's head and tap into their deepest, darkest fears). Furthermore, I find the insinuation that players need your help to be able to roleplay 'correctly' pretty insulting.

Anyway, back to the point - I think you're just going to have to accept that if you write this mod you'll be doing it for a very select group of people and that a lot of folk are going to find it unnecessary or distasteful.

Still, if you want to write it go ahead... as someone once said: My manner of thinking, so you say, cannot be approved. Do you suppose I care?

[AnnabelleRose]

This should be made into a mod.

Package it with Juna and whatnot.

[Delight]

Juna mod?
I've never heard about it.

Furthermore, I find the insinuation that players need your help to be able to roleplay 'correctly' pretty insulting.

My help? I never said that I will make such mod. I'm just talking about shortcomings of BG2.
Hmm...
Making a mod based on this idea would be an interesting... experiment.

What they really went through in your opinion, which might not press my buttons at all (believe me, I can probably imagine worse things than you can write - particularly as there is no way that you can get into everyone's head and tap into their deepest, darkest fears).

I don't think that scaring <CHARNAME> wasn't the goal of Irenicus .
At least I don't recall him playing with <CHARNAME'S> fears.

Anyway, back to the point - I think you're just going to have to accept that if you write this mod you'll be doing it for a very select group of people and that a lot of folk are going to find it unnecessary or distasteful.

It's their problem, not mine. I find a lot of mods (Tactics for example) unnecessary and distasteful.

[Grim Squeaker]

I find a lot of mods (Tactics for example) unnecessary and distasteful.

I'm disturbed that you consider 'challenging tactical encounters' and 'gratuitous torture descriptions' to be the same level when it comes to what is distasteful.

[Sidhe]

My help? I never said that I will make such mod. I'm just talking about shortcomings of BG2.
Hmm...
Making a mod based on this idea would be an interesting... experiment.

And a lot of people have said they don't think it's a shortcoming. Again - all down to personal opinion. It doesn't change the fact you seem unable to grasp the fact that some people are capable of roleplaying perfectly well without having torture scenes in full technicolour detail

It's their problem, not mine. I find a lot of mods (Tactics for example) unnecessary and distasteful.

It's not a problem. It's an opinion. I'm by no means saying 'don't do it' (trust me, I'm not the morality police) I'm just saying 'accept that it won't float everyone's boat, and stop acting like everyone with an opinion that isn't yours is wrong'



Of course, maybe you don't think that - you're just coming across (IMHO) as a bit... well... holier than thou and elitist

[Delight]

My help? I never said that I will make such mod. I'm just talking about shortcomings of BG2.
Hmm...
Making a mod based on this idea would be an interesting... experiment.

And a lot of people have said they don't think it's a shortcoming. Again - all down to personal opinion. It doesn't change the fact you seem unable to grasp the fact that some people are capable of roleplaying perfectly well without having torture scenes in full technicolour detail

It depends on level of roleplaying that we are talkin about .
I don't think that with current state of BG2 gameplay it's even possible to roleplay a character with PTSD.
A lot of pieces like nightmares or flashbacks are missing.
It's espacially visible in Bioware romances where NPCs act like they were the center of the universe .
I think that such mod would require not only descriptions of tortures and being held in the dungeon but also things like nightmares, flashbacks different dialog options, etc.

Hmm...
Nightmares and flashbacks would be a nice things. PC could see some of events only in nightmares.
I think that the realm of dreams holds has a big potential that is unexplored by game.
Bhaal essence could tempt <CHARNAME> in dreams, offering some special abilities or secret knowledge in exchange for sacrifices.
Maybe PC could do something "only in dream" and discover that it has real life consequences.

I think that BG series have a potential to be as deep and weird as Planescape: Torment .

It's not a problem. It's an opinion. I'm by no means saying 'don't do it' (trust me, I'm not the morality police) I'm just saying 'accept that it won't float everyone's boat, and stop acting like everyone with an opinion that isn't yours is wrong'

The problem is that some people try to act like morality police.

Of course, maybe you don't think that - you're just coming across (IMHO) as a bit... well... holier than thou and elitist

I see "distasteful", "unapprociate", "Package it with Juna", "worthless" attitudes as holier than thou.

I'm just an elitist .

I find a lot of mods (Tactics for example) unnecessary and distasteful.

I'm disturbed that you consider 'challenging tactical encounters' and 'gratuitous torture descriptions' to be the same level when it comes to what is distasteful.

I don't consider torture descriptions in narration as distasteful (if I would consider them distasteful at all) as bastardising the idea of RPG and degrading it to SFL pseudotactical game.

Edited by Delight, 02 May 2006 - 11:19 AM.

[Creepin]

*sigh*

I see "distasteful", "unapprociate", "Package it with Juna", "worthless" attitudes as holier than thou.

If you were asking other people's opinion on such an idea - you get it aplenty. What is there to argue about for so long?

I think that BG series have a potential to be as deep and weird as Planescape: Torment

Don't forget: PST gets it's fame because of it's overall charm, not plain morbidness.

Edited by Creepin, 02 May 2006 - 12:12 PM.

[Delight]

Yes, but attention to details and exploration of PC's psyche (which are practicaly unexistent in BG series) were a very important part of that charm.

Edited by Delight, 02 May 2006 - 01:34 PM.

[SimDing0]

I'm disturbed that you consider 'challenging tactical encounters' and 'gratuitous torture descriptions' to be the same level when it comes to what is distasteful.

It depends on the use of the descriptions. If you recall, one of my proposals for a potential Khalid romance was an extension of the Irenicus torture sequence culminating in him attempting to force the player to choose between Khalid and Jaheira (this was largely shot down on the grounds that it wouldn't allow for a "happy" enough romance). Clearly anyone with any kind of sense would not fill this with any sort of gratuitous bullshit, but it's still likely to be more provocative than the original sequence, because I don't think there are many people out there who can honestly say that Irenicus casting spells at you was anything but a hugely boring cutscene.

[Grim Squeaker]

It depends on the use of the descriptions. If you recall, one of my proposals for a potential Khalid romance was an extension of the Irenicus torture sequence culminating in him attempting to force the player to choose between Khalid and Jaheira (this was largely shot down on the grounds that it wouldn't allow for a "happy" enough romance)

Actually, I believe that was the idea that was generally decided to be best. But yes, such a sequence doesn't need gratuitous descriptions, just well written dialogue.

[Delight]

gratuitous descriptions,

What the hell is your problem?!?

[Grim Squeaker]

gratuitous descriptions,

What the hell is your problem?!?

Was there a point to this post? I mean, is there something wrong with saying the words 'gratuitous descriptions' when I'm having a conversation with Sim about whether gratuitous descriptions would be needed in Khalid mod?

And if you're mocking my previous post when I said those same words, then I'd like to point out that I made that response in reply to someone joking about a topic entirely unsuitable for making jokes about, so I think that response was justified.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 03 May 2006 - 05:14 AM.

[Delight]

I'm refering to your self-righterous contempt toward the description of negative aspects of reality of fantasy worlds.
I'm asking what the hell is wrong with you because I find it damn offensive.

[Grim Squeaker]

I'm refering to your self-righterous contempt toward the description of negative aspects of reality of fantasy worlds.
I'm asking what the hell is wrong with you because I find it damn offensive.

Excuse me?! I do not have any contempt towards descriptions of negative aspects of reality in fantasy. I've written many dialogues on the darker aspects of fantasy including narrative fanfiction involving brutal murder and characters being driven to suicide (in that particular case I indulged in what you're claiming I despise, because I felt it was a suitable implementation for the story I was trying to tell). I've only stated in this thread that I think that in-depth descriptions of Charname's torture wouldn't add a lot to the game, as I feel that the imagination provides all that is necessary.

The section you quoted however was not addressed at you, nor was it to do with your precious little debate. I was referring to the fact that were Irenicus to offer Charname the choice of which of Khalid and Jaheira died (as a form of emotional and psychological torture) it would best be implemented with well written dialogue of the NPCs' reactions as opposed to detailed descriptions of Irenicus performing the act in question.

How can you find that offensive?

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 03 May 2006 - 05:39 AM.