Older versions archive part 5: Shadow Thieves

kozand:

We should have a common data base for all WeiDU mods.

A wonderful idea, I'm all for it!

Longinus:

I confirmed in another forum that Weimer didn't improve the three thieves you fight before exiting Irenicus' dungeon. Someone wrote that they were still wimps. Haha.

Strange...I seam to recall some poster arguing that Weimer's thieves in Irenicus' dungeon were too powerful...I guess he meant some other group. Anyway, I really think Wes should handle the improved fights and restored vampire war. He is so much better at scripting than me and far more experienced. I still wince when I have to script a few lines of dialogue for some character and it often takes me hours to get it right OTOH, I can do AI scripting and creating or rebalancing items and abilities with relative ease.

You could always ask Wes to include the missing vampire/thief encounters in his next revision of 'Tactics'.

Out of all the shadow thieves you see in BG2 only renal bloodscalp is official printed in a book. The true leader of the shadow thieves is Iltarch Rhinnom Danniyr grandmaster of the shadow thieves and is one of council of six that control amn.

Interesting...so he is considered 'canon' in FR books then ?

P.S. I fixed your other post. BTW, nice avatar !

If you want to find out more about amn and the surrounding lands the go to this link D&D dragons classics for download and download the lands of intrigue book because that has detailed info on the shadow thieves, the council of six, and practicaly every thing you need to know about amn.

I got my avatar from hellkitty's picture site I think.

It looks good. I'll check it out if my modem can handle the 16MB download that is

Strange...I seam to recall some poster arguing that Weimer's thieves in Irenicus' dungeon were too powerful...I guess he meant some other group. Anyway, I really think Wes should handle the improved fights and restored vampire war. He is so much better at scripting than me and far more experienced. I still wince when I have to script a few lines of dialogue for some character and it often takes me hours to get it right  OTOH, I can do AI scripting and creating or rebalancing items and abilities with relative ease.

You could always ask Wes to include the missing vampire/thief encounters in his next revision of 'Tactics'.

Ok, I'll see if Weimer will restore the fights. I found a topic asking for suggested improvements for the random encounters mod (which is a part of the tactics mod).

A new crime boss in the shadow thieves is not something that go unnoticed, even among independant operators(Which would normaly be few, but would make some sense considering the war). If you consider the options you have when assigning your thieves, you're pretty much in charge of the city operations and the surrounding lands. Seeing that the death of Mae'Var is a pretty major thing in itself... well, word travels quickly, it makes no real sense that the muggers wouldn't be aware of it. Besides, it

There's lots of reasons the muggers would attack you. . .
Maybe they were loyal to Mae'var. . .
Maybe they don't think you are a worthy guild boss and want to kill you. . .
Maybe other things. . .getting tired and not thinking well of them now. No reason they definitely would not attack you.

Strange...I seam to recall some poster arguing that Weimer's thieves in Irenicus' dungeon were too powerful...I guess he meant some other group. Anyway, I really think Wes should handle the improved

I think if "Improved Ilych" is installed it also has Shadow Theives spawn when you try to rest in that dungeon. That may have been what you heard about.

Im sure there are alot of very lovely reasons for the muggers to attack you, but: 1. They all feel forced. 2. It still boils down to bioware not having time or motivation to make the strongholds more interesting.

You can make up fantastic stories about why those lowlevel muggers would be stupid enough to take on the people who killed Mae'Var all day. It's still silly.

I'll probably have to live with minor things like this cause fixing them is not a high priority(heck, if I could fix it, I'd probably be too lazy). I just think it'd be nice to have more stuff reminding you that your char is not just his destiny. I never did like this whole Bhaalspawn thing myself, but that's just me.

I'll also restore the Artemis Entreri encounter which you mentioned a while ago if I can, but this probably won't happen until I finish rev 3.00...

I was thinking about this: you could make the dagger an item Aran Linvail gives to the player for siding with the thieves, or as a reward for defeating Bodhi's guild. It would make sense since it is a dagger.

Improved Shadow thief allies in CH6


As Longinus pointed out a while ago (and many other players noticed as well) the assassins which come to your aid against Bodhi (if you convince the Shadowmaster) in Chapter Six are pretty weak, not to say pathetic. *Sigh*, and to think they are supposed to be some of the best that the Shadow Thieves have to offer...

An interesting thing to note, most of these characters had weapons of +2 enchantment or less which is certainly not too shabby, but it was still not good enough to damage some of the tougher Vampires in Bodhi's Lair. I decided to replace these weapons with undroppable (yes I too hate doing this!) versions of generic +3 weapons which will make them able do deal out some damage but they will still drop their former +2 loot. The group leader, Arkanis, is the only exception to this and he will drop a (generic) +3 Short Sword along with the Shadow Armor which he is wearing.

When I checked out the scripts and creature files of this group I noticed many mistakes. Apparently, they were all spawned from a single .cre based on a lvl 16 Swashbuckler which was then randomly modified to *approximately* fit the desired characters. Thus most of the characters' saving throws were incorrect, and in some cases the hit points and AC were abnormally good. The classes of the rogues were incorrectly defined as well, so most of them could not backstab even if they had the chance (which BTW they did not since they were utilizing the generic WTASIGHT.BCS script). This was corrected, and the four rogues are now somewhat more defined:


1) Arkanis (group leader) - CN Human Fighter 13 / Thief 16 (Dual class)
STR 18/77, DEX 18, CON 18, INT 12 WIS 12, CHA 10 AC 0 Hit Points 131

The infamous leader of the group had some pretty good natural AC, but since he is not an ankheg or some such beast I changed this back to default values. In the process I have equipped him with undroppable versions of Shadow Armor, Thief's Hood, Boots of Speed and the Girdle of Bluntness. He also has an undroppable Ring of Invisibility placed there by Bioware devs for some reason (possibly to allow his first and only backstab). He is now dual wielding an undroppable (Improved) Short Sword of Backstabbing (primary hand) and a generic Dagger +3 (secondary hand). He should act similarly to Venduris from my Chosen of Cyric mod, which means backstabbing then drinking invisibility potions (of which he has 10). Also, at the start of the battle he will quaff a Potion of Absorption.

2) Kachiko - CN Human Fighter 7 / Thief 13 (Dual class)
STR 15, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 12 WIS 10, CHA 13 AC -3 Hit Points 98

SHE was erroneously classified as a male thief and had the respective avatar, although all characters in the game referred to her as a female, so I fixed that first. Kachiko is now single-wielding a generic Short Sword +3 with which she'll try to backstab. Her inventory contains the undroppable versions of the Thieves' Hood, Armor of Deep Night and Girdle of Bluntness plus another undroppable Ring of Invisibility placed there by Bioware devs for the same reason as with Arkanis. She also has (and will use) 5 Potions of Invisibility and one Potion of Hill Giant Strength.

3) Yeanasha - TN Human Kensai 9 / Thief 13 (Dual class)
STR 18/55, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 10 WIS 12, CHA 10 AC 2 Hit Points 108

This rogue was supposed to be part Kensai judging by his override script which suggested the usage of the Kai ability which was, alas, never assigned to his .cre file. This was corrected and he is now a properly dual classed Kensai/Thief and will occasionally employ his Kai. Also, I noticed that he was wearing armor and since that is not allowed for Kensais I removed it as well. He is now dual wielding undroppable versions of a (generic) Katana +3 and a (generic) Short Sword +3. He is wearing an undroppable Girdle of Bluntness, a Cloak of Protection +1 and a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone. He also has 5 potions of Invisibility and will try to backstab using them to aid him. At the start of the battle he will gulp down a Potion of Defense to improve his week AC.

4) Gofus - CN Human Swashbuckler 16 (Single class)
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 10 WIS 12, CHA 10 AC -5 Hit Points 92

I believe that he was the original model for this entire group, for only his saving throws and hit points were correctly implemented. His dexterity was a bit too high though 19 points, and I lowered it back to 18 since he is a mere Human after all He used to spawn in a very narrow corridor sometimes wondering off instead of helping the group, but I hopefully corrected that. BTW, Gofus is now dual wielding a (generic) Long Sword +3 and a (generic) Short Sword +3 and wearing undroppable versions of The Night's Gift, the Thieves' Hood, and the Girdle of Bluntness. He also has 5 potions of Invisibility and one Oil of Speed which he will quaff down at the start of the battle. He will go for hit and run attacks while occasionally hiding in Invisibility to throw off incoming opponents.

I have been testing this component for a while now and it seams to work ok. The improved rogues are not too powerful at least IMO, so the player still gets his fair share of the action. Nonetheless I decided to change their Allegiance to 'ALLY' so they are now considered friendly, and you will get the XP for any kills which they might make while helping you (although you still can not control them). As a side effect of this, the allied thieves can only backstab from the err...rear position just like normal players and very unlike Venduris Too bad I can't script them to do that, so you'll have to rely on a bit of luck.

In the end, please share some opinions on this new component as it was basically just an offspring idea of my intent to transfer the Improved Short Sword of Backstabbing to Chapter 6. From v2.35 you no longer get the Short Sword of Backstabbing from Renal Bloodscalp after completing his ques. He will now *merely* award you with a generic Short Sword +3. I have transferred my improved Short Sword of Backstabbing to Aran Linvail in CH6. The shadowmaster will now give you the blade if you successfully convince him to grant you his aid against Bodhi. Just FYI, the only other way to get the Short Sword of Backstabbing (aside from Aran) is to kill Renal. I believe this can only be legitimately accomplished if you are siding with Bodhi in Chapter 2.

aVENGER, once again I have to congratulate you - nice improvements!
There is only a small but very vital thing where I don't share your ideas: why SHOULD those thieves be able to damage the Elder Vampires? I think it VERY WELL balanced the way they were equipped by weapons in the previous version. Since they are much more of a threat to the Vampires (whose AI hasn't improved a bit, and will eventually fall against a "Venduris-like" group. I strongly suggest that limit them to (droppable) +1 and +2 weapons ONLY. This is quite important to keel up game balance - do not forget, those thieves should originally FALL against the vampires, with the sole exception of Arkanis.

I hope you understand my point. Either "buff" some of the Vampires (for example give a few spellcasting type, like the one in chapter 3 when you face Bodhi the first time), and simply give the Vamps some better targeting - they just lack the intelligence , or reduce the arsenal of the attacking thieves.

There is only a small but very vital thing where I don't share your ideas: why SHOULD those thieves be able to damage the Elder Vampires?

Heh, well I assumed that by CH6 the thieves would finally figure out the whole Vampires are immune to +x weapons thing and that they would invest in some better equipment Ok, now honestly, I did give them the +3 weapons because it was annoying that they weren't even aware of doing no damage to a particular vampire, but than again I could balance it out a bit by giving some thieves both +3 and a +2 weapons (for dual wielding).

BTW, in my testing the thieves did pretty well...until a vampire scored a critical hit and drained them of 4-5 levels, ouch. In that weakened state their Thac0 and HP drop significantly and they rapidly become less of a threat. Such a situation can easily occur since the thieves have no anti-leveldraining equipment.

and simply give the Vamps some better targeting - they just lack the intelligence sad.gif , or reduce the arsenal of the attacking thieves

Eh? Didn't Weimer's Tactics mod already handle this ?

No. In words it did, but that component is buggy. It won't install the correct components. (see at the "Other Weimer mods" section)

Small Update:

I have added one scroll of Lesser Restoration to Arkanis, and in case he gets level drained by a Vampire he will use it on himself. Also, I have toned down the levels of the helper rogues a bit so most of them now have less than 1 million XP.

@T.G. - I forgot to address this before, the thieves are actually not supposed to fail against Bodhi's Vampires all the time. Here's a line from Arkanis' original script which proves this:

Well done, rogues! You may go. I shall continue with [CHARNAME] to face Bodhi.

This is supposed to happen if they manage to kill the two stronger Vampires (Tanove and Hareishan) but since they had no +3 weapons...

Awesome improvements. I'd still like that life stealer dagger unless you've put it somewhere else in your mod.

Ok, one thing about the Kensai/thief: since he'll now be using an unhooded avatar couldn't you give him some leather armour that doesn't grant an AC bonus so that he still seems like a rogue?

The Shadow Thief elite should be equipped with the most expensive magical weapons known to them; I don't disagree with this.

Btw, when you side against the Shadow Thieves, Renal disappears. This was intentional I believe.

*Starts testing Avenger's latest mod*.

@ Longinus:

Thanks! The next on my list will probably be the Improved Shadow Thief Guild / Aran Linvail battle. Your Kensai suggestion sounds reasonable, and I'll create a 'cosmetic' leather armor for Yeanasha to wear in the next revision.

BTW, the Life Stealer dagger is currently not in my mod, but if I do implement it will only be available in a restored Artemis Entreri encounter.

Man, I really wish you were working for Bioware when BG2 was in development.

Heh, thanks although I'd rather work for BIS

BTW, here are some more details on the latest mod plans (already mentioned on the other thread):

I'll try to keep most of the 'standard' thief guards in the guild at relatively low levels (total XP There will also be some lower level Thief/Mages and Cleric/Thieves for support but the most important areas will be guarded by high level Assassins, Fighter/Thieves and Priest's of Mask.

Also, I'll probably add more guardians for both Aran and Renal and I'll disable Arkanis Gath, the (almost) invulnerable plot savior, after Chapter 6.

Cool.

You actually fight a weaker version of Arkanis Gath at the docks for Bodhi's first quest. He is tough with 3 attacks per round thanks to 5 short sword proficiency points but you could still improve him as you have done with his chapter 6 counterpart.

I also feel that Gaelen needs a few guards; you fight him all on his own normally. Maybe Gaelen could get some bodyguards too. I find it hard to believe that someone holding the key to the Shadow Thief guild lower levels would be unprotected.