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Trias/Vhailor: The Good Option


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Poll: Trias/Vhailor: The Good Option (31 member(s) have cast votes)

What is the best way to resolve the missing Good option in the Vhailor/Trias exchange?

  1. Do nothing. (3 votes [9.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.68%

  2. Absolute minimal impact. (4 votes [12.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.90%

  3. Balanced impact with choices and consequences, see below. (24 votes [77.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.42%

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#21 Qwinn

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Posted 08 June 2009 - 02:48 AM

At this point, I'm interpreting the third-option votes as a vote for the minimal method (which just adds meaningless but not-as-evil responses) in the fixpack, and the actual expanded options in UB. If someone intends something -other- than that by their vote, please do let me know in a post.

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#22 Gumby

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 12:20 AM

At this point, I'm interpreting the third-option votes as a vote for the minimal method (which just adds meaningless but not-as-evil responses) in the fixpack, and the actual expanded options in UB.


Sounds good to me. ;)

#23 Tassadar88

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Posted 09 June 2009 - 08:39 AM

At this point, I'm interpreting the third-option votes as a vote for the minimal method (which just adds meaningless but not-as-evil responses) in the fixpack, and the actual expanded options in UB. If someone intends something -other- than that by their vote, please do let me know in a post.
Qwinn

What I was going to suggest. And I am curious if the "Just die already" will still be present in the minimal fix? That aside, I think that most people who are going to play with the FP are going to use the UB as well anyway.
The Mind is its own place and in itself - can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. -John Milton, Paradise lost

#24 Qwinn

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:41 PM

What I was going to suggest. And I am curious if the "Just die already" will still be present in the minimal fix?


Yes. I won't be removing it, I will just be adding an option so you aren't -forced- to act evil after redeeming Trias.

That aside, I think that most people who are going to play with the FP are going to use the UB as well anyway.


Considering "most" as "> 50%", I agree, but actually UB has a significantly lower download count than the Fixpack. It seems that around 28% of people who enjoy the Fixpack aren't interested in UB, for whatever reason.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 12 June 2009 - 11:47 PM.


#25 Kung Fu Man

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 09:58 PM

Wow I'm...really quite surprised nobody suggested it, but having a scenario where, no matter what, if Vhailor's in an earshot of the conversation you end up stuck with a dead Trias, the player is effectively being punished for having him in their party. Strictly speaking giving an option to fight Vhailor to defend Trias seems kind of the same.

The best outcome? Shouting at Vhailor something like "Vhailor, WAIT!" would be enough to distract the Mercykiller long enough for Trias to teleport out of there. Trias teleports out of there pretty quickly after your conversation ends naturally, doesn't he? So most likely, and reasonably, he's just about ready too before Vhailor's on top of him. As for the aftermath, chrome dome would probably not be too pleased, but wouldn't kill over it: he's aware of TNO's own quest.

Cons:
-No real proof this was the intended option

Pros:
+Cleanest method, minimal work
+Vhailor doesn't die, party doesn't hate themselves for having him along

Edited by Kung Fu Man, 16 June 2009 - 09:58 PM.


#26 Qwinn

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 03:57 AM

Kung Fu Man:

It's an interesting idea, but by the standards I've adopted it's nor really a very clean method. To me, "clean" means not having to write new dialogue. I think your idea here would require more new dialogue than my plans for either the Fixpack or UB. Or, if not -require- it, if we didn't add some dialogue to explain what happened it would be a very abrupt ending.

As for whether the game "punishes" you for bringing Vhailor, I think in the original game most people consider it -rewarding- you. It lets you get both the Tattoo of the Redeemer and Tattoo of the Betrayer, both of which are exceptionally good tattoos. Too rewarding, really, if you ask me, heh.

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#27 Kung Fu Man

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 09:18 AM

At most, it'd require one new entry: Vhailor pauses, Trias takes off. The alternatives of "let Trias be killed or kill off Vhailor to protect him" still seem like punishing the party in a game that emphasizes brains over brute force.

At the moment the only choice given to people to keep Trias alive with chrome dome in their party is to shove him well beyond the door. It does come across something more as an optional UB addon to modify that, but an out option just makes more sense to me than "kill ally".

#28 Qwinn

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 09:33 AM

*nod* Okay, I see what you're saying about not needing too much new dialogue, I suppose it could be done that way. Still, I'm not liking it.

I justify the way I've envisioned it in this way:

The problem with the vanilla game isn't that Vhailor or Trias are acting "incorrectly", it is that it is restricting TNO's options. The game makes it clear that, if you do nothing, Vhailor can interrupt Trias from leaving. I don't see Vhailor on the warpath as interruptable with a mere yell. Vhailor on the warpath is not "distractable"... you certainly can't stop him with a yell in any other dialogue where he goes hostile (including at the beginning of the Carceri Trias encounter). He operates along the lines of "unstoppable killing machine"... well, not unstoppable maybe, but certainly unpersuadable. Vhailor generally isn't interested in appeals to mercy. He'd judged Trias at that point, and his whole nature is going to be pretty single-minded about delivering his punishment for that verdict.

As for the aftermath, chrome dome would probably not be too pleased, but wouldn't kill over it: he's aware of TNO's own quest.


I disagree. Vhailor doesn't give a fig for TNO's quest. Nor is he even properly an "ally". Vhailor cares about *JUSTICE*, and that's it. You derail his quest for JUSTICE in any way, and he's going to punish you for it.

I realize you're looking at the consideration of what would make the player feel good about the encounter. I'm not interested in that, except insofar as providing the player the option to do -something- in character, which is lacking now for good TNO's. Doesn't mean the outcome has to be beneficial to the player. I think it is in character for everyone involved that, in those circumstances, there is no "great" option, there is only the option to let Vhailor kill Trias, or to kill Vhailor. What you're suggesting would "soften" Vhailor in a way that I don't think is appropriate to his very single-minded character.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 17 June 2009 - 09:40 AM.


#29 Qwinn

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 03:57 PM

Alright, good news and bad news.

Bad news is, I probably won't be doing the fight-Vhailor mod. Or, maybe I will someday if there's a lot of desire for it, but right now it's a lot lower on my priority list.

The good news is that this is because I got a hold of, and got the scoop, from Colin McComb, original PS:T designer and the guy who actually coded up the whole Trias dialogue :) So this is pretty much canon as far as I'm concerned, heh :)

Turns out, it -was- an error that the good dialogue was left out, and he has tendered his apologies for it. He's given me permission to quote some of the email exchange regarding what actually went on with this bit and how it should be fixed, and I will post it soon, so stay tuned.

In the meantime, what I will reveal for now is this: It's going to be pretty much the "minimal" option, mainly a non-functional "Stop, Vhailor!". Regardless of the option taken, if Vhailor kills Trias, then you will only get the Betrayer tat, you will no longer get the Redeemer tat. (His argument for that is one I can comfortably agree with).

I sent Colin a proposed dialogue to fill the gap, and gave him the total option to rewrite it as he sees fit... like I said, I'm considering whatever he decides here to be canon. One way or the other, I'll be posting his explanation of what went on there and his explanation for how it should be (which I will implement) soonish.

Qwinn

#30 Qwinn

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 06:39 PM

Ok, so here's what Colin had to say about this issue.

On why a good option was missing in the first place:

So: not a technical issue, but a design/story issue. As to why we didn't build out the "hey, leave him alone!" option... I'll take the blame for that, since I was responsible for Trias's dialogue. You're right, I should have done more with it - that was an obvious hole that should have been covered. Looking at my original docs, I see that I even have "Stop, Vhailor!" in the dialogue options... and then, apparently, I finished the doc at work, and didn't keep a copy for home, because the linked dialogue goes to an empty box in my dialogue sheet.

Whoops.

So this is officially a ten-years-overdue apology for that part.

I don't mind being named for this argument. People are also free to disagree with the logic behind it, if they want. :)


And how it should go now:

Personally, I'd go with the "Stop, Vhailor!" option (but not the Stop Vhailor, if you see what I mean), have Vhailor ignore the player's command, and then kill Trias. Following this, include Trias's "some day my cause etc" line, and then he dies. TNO gets the Betrayer tat (yeah, I know, there's the death stroke argument - but Trias is dead, and the player is directly responsible for it by bringing Vhailor to the Betrayer).

Letting Trias escape... well, I don't like it. The player makes a choice to have the unstoppable judgment of Vhailor in his party, and sometimes the choices people make prevent them from obtaining optimal solutions.


Personally, I've no wish to argue with his logic here. It seems a perfectly reasonable argument to me... and I'm happy that it allows me to resolve the Can Get Both Tattoos issue in the Fixpack as well.

There's really no place for me to insert the "some day my cause shall be honored" line, since the dialogue specifically denotes his every word from Vhailor's stroke until "the light vanishes from his eyes". I've sent Colin my most recent writeup for the dialogue following the "Stop, Vhailor!" and given him full opportunity to flesh that out as he sees fit. No response yet, but we had some email delivery issues earlier, so might just be he didn't get it... I'll follow up in a bit, but if he declines to do any dialogue writing himself, I'll go with the plan as I sent it to him.

Which, for the record, is this:

Trias: He opens his mouth for an angry retort... and pauses, reflecting. He bows his head. "You speak convincing words, mortal, and their wisdom pierces me. I shall seek the forgiveness of my fathers, and accept any retribution they choose. Take this, and farewell, mortal. If we meet again, it is my hope that I will be redeemed."
TNO: "Best of luck, Trias. Farewell." (no other option)
Vhailor: "*The deva shall NOT walk free. No matter your vow, JUSTICE must be SERVED.*"
TNO: "Watch." or "Attack the deva." or "Vhailor, stop!" All lead to same result.
Trias: Vhailor strikes him down, shattering the bones of his proud face, bloodying his immaculate form. With his dying strength, Trias says, "Know that you have damned yourself. In killing me, you have shattered the last shield that you have against the horrors that will consume you. The fiend I tricked... he is now free..." His weak chuckle trickles off, and the light vanishes from his eyes.
TNO: "Just die already." or new dialogue line: ~"Dammit, Vhailor! Do you realize what you've done?"~
Vhailor: ~Vhailor turns from Trias's corpse to face you squarely. *The HAND of JUSTICE shall NOT be stayed.*~ (Voiced... this is also his last line in the Fortress if you merge with TO, but it seems a particularly appropriate line here, good enough to justify reusing it. Might as well be his motto anyway.)
TNO: ~"We'll discuss this some other time. Let's move on."~ (Existing line I found elsewhere in the dialogue file)


Since we now know that a more developed Actually Stop Vhailor branch was never planned, I'll probably not do a UB version of it. Maybe if I ever do a "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" mod, but that won't be until the existing mods have gone stable and finalized, most likely.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 23 June 2009 - 06:44 PM.


#31 Gumby

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 02:40 AM

And how it should go now:

Personally, I'd go with the "Stop, Vhailor!" option (but not the Stop Vhailor, if you see what I mean), have Vhailor ignore the player's command, and then kill Trias. Following this, include Trias's "some day my cause etc" line, and then he dies. TNO gets the Betrayer tat (yeah, I know, there's the death stroke argument - but Trias is dead, and the player is directly responsible for it by bringing Vhailor to the Betrayer).

Letting Trias escape... well, I don't like it. The player makes a choice to have the unstoppable judgment of Vhailor in his party, and sometimes the choices people make prevent them from obtaining optimal solutions.


Personally, I've no wish to argue with his logic here. It seems a perfectly reasonable argument to me... and I'm happy that it allows me to resolve the Can Get Both Tattoos issue in the Fixpack as well.


Agreed. It's like talking to Sigil prostitutes while having Annah in party... ;)

Good job for getting in touch with Colin, btw. *thumbs up*

Maybe if I ever do a "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" mod,


LOL!

#32 gothemasticator

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 01:10 PM

Qwinn,

Great job figuring out a solution!

The "Dammit..." line and Vhailor's voiced follow-up are perfect.

gothemasticator

#33 Tassadar88

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Posted 25 June 2009 - 10:13 AM

Cool work, Qwinn !

Your work on PST is my dreams come true, *know* that if you needed assistance with whatever I could help you out with, IŽll be more than happy to.

Since we now know that a more developed Actually Stop Vhailor branch was never planned, I'll probably not do a UB version of it. Maybe if I ever do a "Qwinn's Totally Original and Highly Unofficial Little Mods Pack" mod, but that won't be until the existing mods have gone stable and finalized, most likely.


The Mind is its own place and in itself - can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. -John Milton, Paradise lost

#34 Hannibal

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:37 AM

Skimming through this, I'm very much for the minimalist option to be included like you proposed, and also the tattoo fix.

That said, one option I wish there was in that dialogue would be to convince Vhailor to back off. (with a fairly high CHA check) I mean, you can convince him that Justice is meaningless too, so why not that?

Trias himself says: "I shall seek the forgiveness of my fathers, and accept any retribution they choose." Letting his punshment be decided by his peers seems pretty just to me, and it isn't farfetched to assume TNO could convince Vhailor of that too. Naturally, Big V would make an ominous threat to Trias that he'll hunt him down if his punishment turns out to not be severe enough.

#35 gothemasticator

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 12:30 AM

That said, one option I wish there was in that dialogue would be to convince Vhailor to back off. (with a fairly high CHA check) I mean, you can convince him that Justice is meaningless too, so why not that?


I think it's too much a heat-of-the-moment situation with Trias for TNO to pull off some high CHA dialogue trickery. Just standing around discussing stuff, sure, but Vhailor isn't going to halt a death charge to listen to anybody's rhetoric.

gothemasticator

#36 Arakhor

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 03:40 PM

I think I agree with Gothemasticator. I always disliked Vhailor for being the worst sort of Mercykiller there is and ruining my subtle game with his mechanical hanging justice, but even Nameless probably can't persuade the incarnation of blind justice itself to drop this matter in less than a few seconds.

#37 -LrdDimwit-

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 08:46 PM

I can think of a couple other things I would have liked to see there, that would fit -- however, Word of God from the script authors is probably better than mine. Too bad :( but I will list them anyway.

1) TNO can already deal with Vhailor when he inquires into TNO's background by saying "I have already suffered for my actions". Surely Trias has suffered for his?

2) It is already established that TNO has power over Vhailor (you can make him believe his 'detect injustice' scan worked, when in fact, you fool it) and also that TNO is responsible for imprisoning Vhailor in the first place. It seems reasonable to me to suppose that when TNO vows to let Trias go, the nature of Carceri means Vhailor could be bound by TNO. (I can see good arguments for this being CHAOTIC GOOD, or EVIL)

This would still turn into Vhailor attacking you -- once you had done this to him, he would immediately attack you as soon as it was over and done with.

3) What about allowing the use of the Wish scroll to resurrect NPCs who have been killed as a result of things you have done? (Per the rules for what is reasonable in 2nd, of course.) Wish is supposed to be powerful enough to do that kind of thing. But then, this seems like going a bit too far, it would undermine too much of the story. I mean, with a Wish scroll TNO could just rez Deionarra -- this would make large parts of the story meaningless. What use is an endless chain of Torment if Wish spells make it better? (On the other hand, numerous people DO say that 'only very potent magic' can bring back the dead -- surely Wish is that potent?)

#38 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 10:25 AM

I'm very glad I found this thread before I progressed past Vhailor with my current playthrough. Guess I'll do like I typically did before - get rid of Vhailor fast as an uncontrollable maniac, just as I tend to do with Ignus.

Not having an option to stop Vhailor was always annoying to me, to the point that I rarely chose to take Vhailor with me. I tend to play my NO as a man who intends to dispense his will on a situation rather than watch helplessly (let's just say, Ignus never survives long after he's recruited when I'm playing like that ;) ). So when Vhailor decides to kill Trias after NO promised him life, that is an outrage my NO shouldn't have to just stand for, no matter what the Word of God is on the situation. It's also outrageous to think that my 25 Wis 24 Int NO would not see this coming to react in time...

As for whether the game "punishes" you for bringing Vhailor, I think in the original game most people consider it -rewarding- you. It lets you get both the Tattoo of the Redeemer and Tattoo of the Betrayer, both of which are exceptionally good tattoos. Too rewarding, really, if you ask me, heh.

That's a weird standard of what is "rewarding" to use on Planescape:Torment of all games (as compared to, say, Diablo II) ;) For me, "rewarding" means unlocking different possibilities, dialogues and discoveries. So yes, the game "punishes" you here for taking Vhailor, because it limits your options, your ability to affect the overall outcome of the confrontation with Trias. Who gives a damn about tattoos...

I think I agree with Gothemasticator. I always disliked Vhailor for being the worst sort of Mercykiller there is and ruining my subtle game with his mechanical hanging justice, but even Nameless probably can't persuade the incarnation of blind justice itself to drop this matter in less than a few seconds.

Oh sure he could. With a lightning bolt to the head.
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#39 -Dalehound-

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 01:48 PM

Of course, the issue with redeeming as well as killing Trias in my opinion is that both lead to the same effect:

The freeing of Fhjull Forked-Tongue.

Spoiler


Spoiler


What I always found odd was that even if you don't have Vhailor with you and Trias Phaneshifts back to Celestia, that Fhjull is freed.

Does Trias betray /you/ in turn and free Fhjull even though he is redeemed? Does he returning to good see it as the only option to pay you back for all the deaths you, TNO, caused?

Of course, that is what leads to the end of the game, and that obviously can't be changed.

Spoiler


I honestly don't mind Vhailor killing Trias for that reason and getting both options. In the end, Vhailor punishes Trias for something you don't know about and what he will do even if you do redeem him.

#40 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 02:47 PM

Spoiler


This is interesting, actually. How do we know this?

As to the rest of your post, well, argumentum ad consequentiam ;)
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