31 replies to this topic

[MorningGlory]

I'm outlining a story about Gorion, and I'm running into major problems trying to reconcile the Bhaalspawns' timeline with events that are historically canon. That is, the ascension of Bhaal to godhood (am referring to the story of Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal's encounter with Jergal where they won the bulk of his portfolio in a game of chance), then Bhaal rousting about Faerun creating offspring during/before (?????) the Time of Troubles and his death.

The main issue seems to be the age of the PC in Baldur's. If, as most sources indicate, Bhaal did his cavorting with mortal females during the ToT (1358DR), and in-game seems to indicate the year being approximately 1368 (iirc the towncriers shouting updates about the border skirmishes to the south of Amn) then what, if any, do we use to explain the disparity of Bhaalspawns' maturity/age with the ToT timeline of only ten years prior.

Has anyone ever seen an explanation of how the Bhaalspawn could be 18/20 years of age? Not looking for something perfect, just something reasonable.


MG

PS: Mr./Ms. Moderator, if this belongs in a different forum, pls move. Thanks!

Edited by MorningGlory, 11 June 2007 - 05:27 AM.

[Kaeloree]

It's generally assumed that Bhaal 'cavorted' before the Time of Troubles, because he foresaw his own death. And moved to Delusions of the Mind.

[MorningGlory]

It's generally assumed that Bhaal 'cavorted' before the Time of Troubles, because he foresaw his own death. And moved to Delusions of the Mind.

The sources I found seem to indicate it was 'during,' but that would seem to negate the idea of the 'divine essence' being passed on to his offspring, seeing as how he was stripped of his 'godliness' during this time. *scratches head*

[Azkyroth]

The consensus seems to be that it was before, especially given his elven and half-dragon offspring (the variety of his offspring, some pure-blooded on their mortal side, would have necessitated using more than one body anyway, impossible during the ToT). Some of his offspring are of species with extremely long lifespans, like the aforementioned; there are two hypotheses for reconciling this. One is that he was preparing for his death decades or even centuries in advance. Another is that Bhaalspawn all age at human normal rate, which Kae thinks is canon but can't find a source for, and would raise a LOT of questions. Presumably the ritual of sacrifice referred to in the Solar dialogues in TOB took place shortly after the ToT...it would have had to have been at least a few years after conception, too, or there's no way Sarevok could have escaped on his own.

My proposed solution was that the Bhaalspawn were indeed sired over a period of time prior to the ToT. Gorion was a longtime friend of the PC's mother, unaware of her gradual seduction into the cult of Bhaal. When he discovered this and was forced to kill her and save her child, as a tribute to the memory of the person she was, he brought the ten-year old (if human if we're using age option 1, or of any race if we're using age option 2) PC to Candlekeep immediately. Trauma and/or magic erased memory of prior events, so the PC remembers the last ten years at Candlekeep only, prior to rediscovering the past. Being barely able to face the truth himself, Gorion concocted the story he told the PC in his letter about the PC's mother dying in childbirth.

[Delight]

Has anyone ever seen an explanation of how the Bhaalspawn could be 18/20 years of age? Not looking for something perfect, just something reasonable.

Yes, developers from Bioware didn't bother to check if the timeline is logical and consistant. Actually, they changed the mother of <CHARNAME> from a Gorions lover to a priestess of Bhaal, because they didn't bother to check how things looked in BG1 (Domi quoted Dave Gaider's explaination of this on G3).
Simply, there's no logical in-game-universe explaination.

The best solution would be: Bringing back the original BG1 character biography - mother of PC being a Gorions lover that was forced by Bhaal to bear his child and died during birth, ignoring the ToB crap and creating a better, more consistant story.

[Bluenose]

Making things slightly less easy to follow , in one of the recent 3.5 edition books there's a mention of Bhaalspawn beginning to gather armies in 1374.

My own opinion is that Bhaal must have done his begetting before the Time of Troubles. There's some hint of that in the intro movie to SoA (ToB?) when it says Bhaal foresaw his death and walked the land before the Time of Troubles to create his children. I've never really been able to explain how the PC can be 20 in 1368, though.

[Delight]

It would be weird, because the action of BG1 official novel happens in 1368, BG2 in 1369 and ToB in 1369.

I found the post I was talking about. No quote from Gaider, but:

Gaider said that they nobody bothered to check BG1 backstory by the time they were cooking up ToB, and BioWARE happily admits it as a mistake on their part. So BG1 backstory runs on the assumption that neither Charname's nor Sarevok's mothers were willing consorts of Bhaal wanting their children to be sacrificed. They both were rape victims that chose to give birth to the children.

The source

It seems that every part of BG is a separate game telling a separate story - BG2 isn't a continuation of BG1, but a separate game with BG1 NPC and <CHARNAME> in specific configuration (NPCs, items, etc.) and ToB is an alternate universe with PCs different background, just great .

[Kulyok]

My own opinion is that Bhaal must have done his begetting before the Time of Troubles. There's some hint of that in the intro movie to SoA (ToB?) when it says Bhaal foresaw his death and walked the land before the Time of Troubles to create his children. I've never really been able to explain how the PC can be 20 in 1368, though.

SoA movie, yes, that's the official explanation.

I've also been using two popular fandom alternatives "I don't remember much before my time with Gorion, so I do not know how old I am" and "Somehow, it seems that we Bhaalspawn age faster than normal people", when it came to discussing PC's age.

[MorningGlory]

Making things slightly less easy to follow , in one of the recent 3.5 edition books there's a mention of Bhaalspawn beginning to gather armies in 1374.

That certainly muddies the waters. Although it follows the actual cronology and all the 'hints,' that seemed to come before, it certainly doesn't do much to validate the BG storylines.

My own opinion is that Bhaal must have done his begetting before the Time of Troubles. There's some hint of that in the intro movie to SoA (ToB?) when it says Bhaal foresaw his death and walked the land before the Time of Troubles to create his children. I've never really been able to explain how the PC can be 20 in 1368, though.

Game references aside, I would agree that he was 'gadding about' prior to ToT -- the only logical explanation. Is there any mention of 'who,' or 'what,' the referenced Bhaalspawn is gathering armies for?

[MorningGlory]

It would be weird, because the action of BG1 official novel happens in 1368, BG2 in 1369 and ToB in 1369.

I found the post I was talking about. No quote from Gaider, but:

Gaider said that they nobody bothered to check BG1 backstory by the time they were cooking up ToB, and BioWARE happily admits it as a mistake on their part. So BG1 backstory runs on the assumption that neither Charname's nor Sarevok's mothers were willing consorts of Bhaal wanting their children to be sacrificed. They both were rape victims that chose to give birth to the children.

The source

It seems that every part of BG is a separate game telling a separate story - BG2 isn't a continuation of BG1, but a separate game with BG1 NPC and <CHARNAME> in specific configuration (NPCs, items, etc.) and ToB is an alternate universe with PCs different background, just great .

Thanks, Delight. A good thread there you've cited.

Seems to be no way to really reconcile the continuity errors between the games, I suppose. Not with each individual game, or with traditional FR canon.

MG

[Deathsangel]

Actually, if I may, another question about timelines. Now involving Viconia and the War of the Spider Queen and more...

In R.A. Salvatore's first book of Drizzt House DeVir is destroyed except for one son, during the birth of Drizzt. Now it is not hard to believe they would keep silent about a renegade daughter (Viconia DeVir), it may even be the cause why the house was in disfavor as said in the book. It does mean Viconia is quite a bit older than Drizzt and possibly unaware of her house distruction, as well as the involvement of Drizzt's house.
Okay, so we take that for granted. Than we see in game that Drizzt is already quite known and has already some of his friends like Wulgar, Catie-Brie etc. when you meet him when exciting the Underdark.
Logic declares this must be several years after he escaped.
Looking at the book series of the War of the Spider Queen, House Baenre just lost his Matron Mother and considering her age in the first few books that would be around the time Drizzt gets fame.
Now the question based on this. In light of these puzzles, does it mean the War of the Spider Queen is yet to start, already finished in BG2? If it would be ended, how can Charname act as if he comes from Ched Nasad, for that has just been destroyed (2nd book) or being rebuild (5th book) in the books... which actually has no mentioning in 3.5 edition of the Underdark, that there was either a war or that Ched Nasad should now have different leaders and religion...

So what say you, did the War happen or is it about to happen, and how much does Viconia know...



P.s. To the older question, I actually didn't got so much out of the story in BG1 the woman was Gorion's lover... Just that they were friends, which is inconsistent enough if she is Bhaal priestess.
Taken the facts to place it as correct as possible I pressume the following. Raping was before, for there are also many species who need much more time than 20 years to grow up, sages just don't know it and since most are humans they only look from there prespective. As said it was rape and Gorion may have said CHARNAME's mother was a friend as to make it easier on his young pupil, and infact she was a Bhaal priestess... That gets most info correct. And I just skip the date thing in the game, making the start of the Times of Trouble and the gathering of these armies a bit plausible with one another, as it is beginning to gather armies and some may be older as the raping started earlier...

Edited by Deathsangel, 13 June 2007 - 03:54 AM.

[Chevalier]

War of the Spider Queen (1372DR) and BG2 in 1369 and ToB in 1369 so it has not yet happened.

[Ilmatar]

I was just wondering about all these things yesterday, digging up timelines and info on Bhaal and whatnot. As everyone else have said here, the timelines are completely messed up, so I've decided that should I mention some of these things in for example my fanfic, I'll just mold everything so that it makes sense, and say BYE BYE to the official timelines, or change Baldur's Gate's dates, since they simply don't fit in.

About Bhaal though - I am more inclined to see that he foresaw his own death well before the Time of Troubles, and got busy with the ladies. That way even if Time of troubles happened in 1358, PC might have already been 10 years old. ..... oh but then ToB butts in with PC's mom, who told that when <Charname> was only a newborn(?) baby, she was going to kill him/her in order to raise Bhaal. Argh! So Time of Troubles had to be before <Charname> was born.

[Deathsangel]

War of the Spider Queen (1372DR) and BG2 in 1369 and ToB in 1369 so it has not yet happened.

Missed that date. Okay, but this makes the assumption, I assume (), that the times given in BG are correct and that Bhaal got busy earlier.
Leaving out the 1374 for gathering armies... It works out. Bhaal being "busy" before the Times of Trouble, so no ten year old PC.
House DeVir is destroyed though than, that is for sure.

oh but then ToB butts in with PC's mom, who told that when <Charname> was only a newborn(?) baby, she was going to kill him/her in order to raise Bhaal. Argh! So Time of Troubles had to be before <Charname> was born.

Oh, Ilmater... as a funny note. As we know some pregnancies take longer. Most of the times the older the creature can become the longer the pregnancy... maybe offspring of mortal and immortal takes a long time to develop (also in the fact you notice your pregnant) ... Yeah, I know lousy explanation. In my previous post I already explained how more or less I try to fit it together...
I just leave out some dates (and some ToB stuff now)... Still I find my explanation about lover and than suddenly Bhaal priestess a good one

Edited by Deathsangel, 13 June 2007 - 04:37 AM.

[Chevalier]

Who says anyone here is telling the truth (or the whole truth) about Bhaal.

'Luke, your father was killed by a young jedi named Darth Vader.'

Well, that was the truth from a certain point of view.

[Kulyok]

Viconia and Drizzt, a lengthy discussion starting with an Attic quote(by Gaider, of course; who else?):
http://forums.gibber...?showtopic=1470

Bhaal and kids: yep, the beauty of it is that you could interpret it in more than one way. Both amnesia and the aging curse fit ToB explanation.

Personally, I do prefer Gorion being portrayed as a man who slew PC's mother, withheld information about PC's heritage for twenty years, left PC a letter with yet more lies about PC's mother and sent her to other Harpers, possibly being aware of the fact that, should PC stray from "Rep higher, and higher, and higher!" path, PC'll end up being the target of the Imprisonment spell. All based on actual fact.

Edited by Kulyok, 13 June 2007 - 05:03 AM.

[MorningGlory]

Who says anyone here is telling the truth (or the whole truth) about Bhaal.

'Luke, your father was killed by a young jedi named Darth Vader.'

Well, that was the truth from a certain point of view.

Amen, Brother Chev! With so many entities having a vested interest here, the 'real truth' could be something quite... interesting, and something that no one would ever expect. We'll see, perhaps a first-hand pov from Gorion himself when I'm finished.

[MorningGlory]

I was just wondering about all these things yesterday, digging up timelines and info on Bhaal and whatnot. As everyone else have said here, the timelines are completely messed up, so I've decided that should I mention some of these things in for example my fanfic, I'll just mold everything so that it makes sense, and say BYE BYE to the official timelines, or change Baldur's Gate's dates, since they simply don't fit in.

About Bhaal though - I am more inclined to see that he foresaw his own death well before the Time of Troubles, and got busy with the ladies. That way even if Time of troubles happened in 1358, PC might have already been 10 years old. ..... oh but then ToB butts in with PC's mom, who told that when <Charname> was only a newborn(?) baby, she was going to kill him/her in order to raise Bhaal. Argh! So Time of Troubles had to be before <Charname> was born.

You would think that the game devs would have had someone on top of the continuity issues. Heck, even the beta testers should have caught something so obvious. I guess, however, we're 'stuck' with it, but it makes it difficult to write a cohesive story that fits into what's portrayed in-game, as well as the current events (and historical milestones) of Faerun and beyond.

[MorningGlory]

War of the Spider Queen (1372DR) and BG2 in 1369 and ToB in 1369 so it has not yet happened.

Yep, same year that Bane is resurrected.. There will be hell to pay...

[Deathsangel]

My own opinion is that Bhaal must have done his begetting before the Time of Troubles. There's some hint of that in the intro movie to SoA (ToB?) when it says Bhaal foresaw his death and walked the land before the Time of Troubles to create his children. I've never really been able to explain how the PC can be 20 in 1368, though.

SoA movie, yes, that's the official explanation.

I've also been using two popular fandom alternatives "I don't remember much before my time with Gorion, so I do not know how old I am" and "Somehow, it seems that we Bhaalspawn age faster than normal people", when it came to discussing PC's age.

Thanks for the topic thing