90 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

Just to assure you that I do take input seriously -- after reading EMT comment I removed all modifications to JI stats that I saw as an overkill... He however will stay his level 30 self, for the purpose of the storyline. His stats are that of the final stand in SoA (with dexterity 20 and in 19) I am not the one who made these -- I am not the one to remove these.

By this argument, you should be treating Irenicus as a chaotic good cleric/mage, because that's what he was originally coded as. I'd say it's more important to go off what seems to make sense, rather than Bioware's coding, which was frankly rubbish. Now, if you think those stats are appropriate, then that's fair enough, but if you're keeping them purely because Bioware said so, then I'd strongly suggest you consider the chaotic good cleric/mage model.

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Just to assure you that I do take input seriously -- after reading EMT comment I removed all modifications to JI stats that I saw as an overkill... He however will stay his level 30 self, for the purpose of the storyline. His stats are that of the final stand in SoA (with dexterity 20 and in 19) I am not the one who made these -- I am not the one to remove these.

lady... I'm not saying that Irenicus is a total diminisher of the challenge of the game. I'm just saying that his intelligence stat is a little bit overstated. so my advice as a beta-tester remains that: just to lower a bit the effect of the mask. 22 is much. 20 is enough...

By this argument, you should be treating Irenicus as a chaotic good cleric/mage, because that's what he was originally coded as. I'd say it's more important to go off what seems to make sense, rather than Bioware's coding, which was frankly rubbish. Now, if you think those stats are appropriate, then that's fair enough, but if you're keeping them purely because Bioware said so, then I'd strongly suggest you consider the chaotic good cleric/mage model.

And he has a point...

Edited by Elan Morin Tedronai, 20 August 2004 - 09:24 AM.

[dorotea]

Now, if you think those stats are appropriate, then that's fair enough, but if you're keeping them purely because Bioware said so, then I'd strongly suggest you consider the chaotic good cleric/mage model.

Question - have you seen this stats or him being a CG c/m yourself? Because I can assure you -- this is an urban legend. Irenicus has about half a dozen cre's in the game -- for various cutscenes and other mysterious purposes. Neither one of these is CG or has a c/m template. Well, maybe there is one cutscene cre hastily put together for some reason, but it is actually never used in the game.

The last Suldanesselar fight JI is what I used -- NE level 30 mage and his stats are pretty consistent for most of the other cre's made for Irenicus in the game.

In any case, I feel that the argument is taking a 'you are a moron' , 'no it is you who are a moron' flavor, and I suggest you wait till the mod is out and then play it or not, same goes about critique. At least EMT tested one of the earlier versions before starting this thread.

[dorotea]

22 is much. 20 is enough...

Hey -- I removed the modifier. He now has int 19. And I removed the alacrity. The fight is now over level 30, and this stays.

[SimDing0]

From Baldurdash:

It corrects Irenicus' alignment to Neutral Evil as it supposed to be (and his race to elf) as he was listed as a Chaotic Good human due to his files being based on those of Elminster, as his stats are exactly the same.

So it gets even better, because you're actually using Elminster's stats.

[SimDing0]

I'm seeing one Irenicus who's chaotic good and has Elminster's exact stats. I'm seeing another who's neutral evil with Elminster's exact stats. I'm also seeing one neutral evil one with the exact stats except dexterity, which is raised by two points, and a final chaotic good one with dexterity raised by a further point.
So we've got two neutral evil and two chaotic good, all with stats identical or so-near-identical-that-it-doesn't-matter to Elminster. Dorner's right... they copied the CRE file.

Ascension JI will just be copied again from one of the above. I very much doubt Gaider would ever have felt the need to look at the stats, because they'd never show up ingame.

[SimDing0]

I should clarify that I haven't listed ALL of the Irenicus creatures, but that seems like a reasonable enough cross section to prove my point.

Oh, and sticking to the more consistent incarnations of his stats doesn't take away the fact that they're Elminster's.

Edited by SimDing0, 20 August 2004 - 10:00 AM.

[Arcalian]

I just want you to know, Dorotea, that you have my full support in this argument.

Most EVERY npc's stats in the game are "unrealistic" compared to the pen and paper game they were based on; they'er supposed to be, so you don't die hundreds and hundreds of times.

But you know what? That's irrelevant. You don't need to agree with the way Dorotea's put the mod together to play it. I don't think Jon has *any* chance of redepmtion, any more than Dorotea thinks Melly or Bohdi does. Will that stop me from playing the mod? No. Will it stop me playing a game where I redeem Jon? No. Why? Because the BG saga is *over* kids (don't get me started on the supposed BG 3, which has about as much to do with the BG 1/2/TOB saga as Temple of Elemental Evil does). Longer Road is a way of adding something fresh and new to TOB--and a way to have an all-evil party for those of us who want one, finally! Jon is *supposed* to be overpowered, that *is* keeping it "in character". If if bothers you that much, use him sparingly until you REALLY need him for a particular fight, then only use those powers that you find to be "balanced". Problem solved.

I am a powegamer and I don't apologize for it. I look forward to siccing Jonny Boy on Draconis and the Master Wraith, and the final seal guardians in WK, and the third fight with Melly and those damnable Slayer Shadows, without having to use spike trap cheese. Quite frankly, I need him!

I think Dorotea has already bent over backwards to accomodate some balancing requests regarding Irenicus. In her place I would've simply said "if you have that much of a problem with it, then dont download it". But she's been more accomodating than she needed to be. But remember ultimately the *player* decides what Jonny does and doesn't do. That should be all the balance you'll ever need.

Let it go, folks.

[SimDing0]

"If you don't like it, don't play it" is never good justification for design decisions.

[Arcalian]

And whining about a game or mod *before it even comes out* becuase you *think* you *might* dislike part of it is frankly pathetic.

Besidse which, Dorotea already made some accomodation to the opposing argument.

Edited by Arcalian, 20 August 2004 - 11:31 AM.

[SimDing0]

Thank you for letting me know how pathetic I am. I obviously needed to be told.

Wait, yeh, it was pretty unnecessary really.

But anyway, I don't see how playing it would make me any more qualified to say what I have. Please point out anywhere I'm making an assumption that might be changed by playing the game.

[SimDing0]

Um. I have never said anything about altering the subplot, and suggesting that altering his stats equates to rewriting the mod is fairly ridiculous. The stats are not a genuine representation of Irenicus, either as Bioware intended him, or indeed as is appropriate to fit ingame, so I am questionning Dorotea's reasons for keeping them as they are. As far as I can tell, the only scenario in which playing the game could make any difference to this is if the mod introduces a plot twist whereby Irenicus is Elminster in disguise.

Does it?

[Arcalian]

By your own admission, Dorotea is using the most "consistent" version of Irenicus. By that logic she is using an "Authentic" Irenicus. Your argument trips over itself. What you are really saying is, you want a weaker Irenicus. Dorotea has already accomodated you and others that feel as you do to as much of an extent as she feels she can. What more do you want?

It seems that what you want is "your" version of an Irenicus mod, as Domi said. Expecting Dorotea to create a mod to your specifications is worse than "if you dont like it, dont play it"; it was, in fact "if it isn't the way I want it to be, it's automatically wrong". Which is, yes indeed, pathetic.