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#41 -Ashara-

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:32 AM

Whoa, easy there!  Haven't you ever heard the phrase "it's easier to catch flies with honey than with..." <rereads Domi's post> "battery acid to the face?"  The general consensus is that the character would hog too much of the spotlight, and people are discussing it.  No need to get so aggressive with someone new to the community over it.

O, you should have seen the first version of the post. That is a *very* toned down one.

Yes, there is a need. When I read the post I thought it was a hoax, because I could not believe that anyone who have heard about Drizzt would suggest that drow would adopt a half-breed female child. That's appart from them being happy with here espressing love and being rewarded for failing her mission and helping avariel... :blink: :blink: :blink:

Half-drows are killed on sight - by drow because they despise half-breeds, and by elves - out of pity (that's a sweet way of putting down 'out of racsist instinct). So if the lady here wants a half-drow (and without the celestial part - because it's pretty much impossible to imagine the parents and their meeting, unless they participated in some interplanar sex orgie) that would be a child concieved on the surface, whose mother was not raped (elves have no rape in their culture, even drow I think) and who went into hiding to preserve the child. Obviously no rape scenario leaves one with a renegade drow for a father (males have more reasons to become renegades, than females in drow society) or mother (try to avoid the same as Viconia's story would be a problem) ... not good and no follower of Ellistrae hopefully; Her mother also hopefully is not of shiny good alignment. The character's skin would be some not-pretty shade of grey, her hair and eyes brown, and she'd be a full elf but half-drow. At every step she'd encounter immediate hatred, unless she creates illusions to conceal her appearance. She's would have inherited some of drow weaknesses, such being short compare to other elves, below average strength and low charisma and having blidness cast on her in the hours of high sun (say 4 hours every day). She'd try to be very assertive, but in truth would have had an inferiority complex, and that assertiveness would make her pitiful. Oh, and above all - do not make her beautiful. It would be nice to drop that weird class, and make her an assassin or a wild mage or whatever by trade. Give her some life experiences, that include something more believable than fighting Cyric. Give her motivation to join PC.

That would be very toned down, and still it would have *huge* Mary-Sue potential.

As for the stats, it is very difficult to write a person with 16+ in wisdom *and* intellegence; that would be a Doctor of Philosophy in Philosophy level. Look at people going beserk over Aerie's stats not corresponding to her personality.

If you want her smart and wiser than many, go for something like:

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 8
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

If you want her wise and smarter than many, reverse the wis and int stats in the previous set;

If you want her to be more warrior oriented, increase her dex and strength, but keep her int and wis at about 14 level. That *well* above average.

Edited by domi, 14 October 2004 - 06:41 AM.


#42 Xander77

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 06:54 AM

O, you should have seen the first version of the post. That is a *very* toned down one.

:thumb:
Мы должны как раз дать эту хромающую страну к русским. Они awesome! Идет Nader! Кустик и Kerry имеют придурковатые weasels в их кальсонах!

#43 Yochlol

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 07:57 AM

K, changing things again. ;)

Story: No angelic parentage, resistances removed, but she's got MR now, since she's half drow. Penalty to Str, and she's shorter than other elves.

Stats:

Str: 11
Dex: 14
Con: 8
Int: 12
Wis: 18
Cha: 14

Half drow, half elven, it should get interesting. Ok, her mother (the drow) was granted a pleasure slave (the elf), but she got pregnant, becoming an outcast. The father was killed and she had to flee the Underdark, giving birth to her child on the surface, died when the child was born. Her child was found by elven rangers, and since elven rangers are noble, they spared her life. She grew up in an elven city, but she was treated as an outcast all the time. When a relic of the god Correlon (is that how it's written?) was stolen, she was immediately blamed. They exiled her, only allowing her re-access if she found the relic and brought it back. (She's innocent, of course, and so she's very bitter)

All she had left was her faith in Mystra. (yes, she's a priestess of Mystra now, instead of a witch) The goddess guided her to Athkatla, where she could find evidence to prove her innocence.

She's not ugly, and I refuse to make her ugly. (I've decided to be very stubborn on that point) She's got silver skin, white hair and green eyes.

Edited by Yochlol, 14 October 2004 - 07:58 AM.

L'alurl faerbol zhah mrann d'ssinss - The best magic item is a male lover.

#44 Yochlol

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 08:21 AM

I was being sarcastic, btw. If you thought my idea sucked, why didn't you just say so?
L'alurl faerbol zhah mrann d'ssinss - The best magic item is a male lover.

#45 -Ashara-

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 09:23 AM

Why did not I say it sucked? Well, I did, but then I edited it, because I thought I am being caught by someone's neat joke - because it was sucking so badly, without redeeming qualities whatsoever, which made it very funny. I am still not sure I am not being had. But I will gladly laugh if I am - it is really really cute as a parody on a typical teenage girly angsty Mary-Sue in BG world :)

So you were sarcastic to start with or just now when you posted a revised story? Because I'd understand it in both cases.

On the good side, compare to the first sketch this scenario is a breath of fresh air. Keep working, you are slowly moving to a believable and not common-place Mary-Sue character.

On the bad side, in this scenario you found and brought forward the full Mary-Sue potential of any half-drow idea I warned about.

Firstly.

What in the Seven Hells this fixation people have on orphans?

A drow female that first copulated with a despised, lowly, disgusting elven slave (while many more pure bred drow males were standingh by eager to please her?) and then kept the child... and escaped heavily pregnant to the Surface (it takes a hell of a time to escape to the surface) after her lover, poor soul, was killed... where she had to provide for herself in the unknown world being 2 year-pregnant? How long did the baby live after the birth enabling the troup of uncharacteristically mild elven rangers to happen by? Common... does it sound er... good?

So... tell me true - does she have to be an orphan? 'Cause you know, the angst that go with it is a pretty cheap trick. That's appart from all the improbable adventures of a heavily-pregnant drow.

Why not try a still unlikely but fresher scenario of the drow female who did not belong to a noble house, had no special talents, and the only prospect of being killed when in service of one of the houses. She escaped to the surface with her elven slave, who was a smart ass and managed to convince her to get the hell out of Underdark? They found refuge with his family and after many years of this awkward partnership they gave birth to a child they rised and protected? Who then went adventuring as many young elves do? Because she wanted to?

Secondly

And elven priestess of Mystra... well, actually elves access the magical weave without Mystra as a middlewoman. So why not worshipping an elven diety for an elf? And while we are at it, why not an elven name for an elf too? Right now it sounds like a free-form alteration of name Elena. There is a close root in Quendy iirc, which means 'star' (as in Elendil etc). So add a suffix to it to form a good aold-fashioned two-part elven name.

Even if elven rangers found her, they would be the ones that would have given her a name, so an elven name would be logical choice. Unless of course they have happend upon her mother in her death throws, and she had extended a child to them wishpering with her last breath a drow name for the child... I beg you NOT to do that! Pleaase...

Thirdly

Green eyes are among the commonest color in Forgotten Realms, judging from fanfiction. Do you really want your NPC be just like everyone else? And yes, violet is taken to. Hazel, light-blue, grey and brown - those are the rare colors :)
Would go good with ash skin too (that's what you meant by silvery, you know, cause the live skin is no metal and ash-grey is a non-pretencious way to describe a skin color like that)

Fourthly

Now 'exiled because they blamed her for stealing the artifact'... while she does not possess an artifact and a powerful relic like that which dissappeared without a trace? All the elven ability to tell lie from truth going wrong? If you want her to be blamed for something make her DO that something. Make her the thief who did stole the artifact. And do not invent an excuse like "she was just joking" or she did it because they were mean to her... Because if she'd be a poor victim of unfair abuse, you are again getting into the Mary Sue zone. hey, make her more vibrant than that.

Edited by domi, 14 October 2004 - 09:41 AM.


#46 Yochlol

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 09:49 AM

That's finally the ideas I was waiting for, the creativity I was hoping for. Criticism after criticism when I'm new to everything isn't exactly encouraging, and when someone comes along and wants to change the original idea into something it's not, then I just give up. Plus, period and a huge, horrible stomach-ache isn't making things easier for me either.

How many times do I have to tell you: I'M NEW AT THIS, AND ALL I WANTED WAS TO DEVELOP MYSELF!!!

Is that too much to ask for? Is it really? Yes, I knew the story sucked, I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't satisfied with it. Luckily, there were some people who actually had some good ideas with what I should do without changing it into something it no longer was. I was even changing the idea for the witch class because I thought it was too powerful.

But hey, why not lock this topic before we get nasty and delete me from this forum, and you won't hear from my stupid parodies again, shall we?
L'alurl faerbol zhah mrann d'ssinss - The best magic item is a male lover.

#47 Yochlol

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 10:36 AM

Ok, I've calmed down now.

Elenya:

Race: Half elven, half drow
Class: Priestess of Corellon Larethian (Is that how it's written?)
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Story:
Being the youngest daughter in a lower house in the Underdark had never been beneficial for Elenya's mother. Only the slaves were less worth than her. The only honour she could ever achieve, would be to die for her house. One day she met a male elven slave. They fell in love but had to keep their love secret. He convinced her that their only chance would be to escape, but the chances of that actually succeeding were small. Being as desperate as they were, they seized on the first opportunity they got - and succeeded. Raiding parties were sent to the surface, and she disguised them as male drow. Once they reached the surface, they headed straight for his family where they found shelter.
A couple of years went by and Elenya was born. Her father brought her to the temple of Corellon where she was trained as a priestess. However, the elves there were suspicious of her and she spent many years in solitude. One day a human came by. He presented himself and claimed to be a priest of Helm. She let him in to the temple, where a statue of Corellon stood at the altar. It was made of pure gold and decorated with gems. It had been a gift from the dwarves and had stood in the temple for centuries. When the Helmite saw the statue, his eyes were full of greed. He asked Elenya to fetch him a glass of water, and when she came back, both the man and the statue were gone.
The other priests decided that Elenya was to find this man and retrieve the statue. Asking Corellon for aid, the god told her to go to Athkatla to retrieve it.

Now, there are two ways (as I see it) as this can develop once you've found the statue:

1. You can convince her to keep the statue to herself, melt it down and form something else out of it. Then she can sell it. (Play a lot on the fact that since she's half drow, the elves will never accept her) She will then become evil.
2. You can convince her to give back the statue, and she remains good.

In progress, mind you, but a lot better than all the other crap. Seems like I've developped after all. Keep pissing me off, Domi, and I might actually write something really good one day. :thumb: :lol: :P

Edited by Yochlol, 14 October 2004 - 10:38 AM.

L'alurl faerbol zhah mrann d'ssinss - The best magic item is a male lover.

#48 Yochlol

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 11:02 AM

Ok, now I know how to keep the old idea without making it sound like a Mary Sue. (I hope)

Her mother being a drow, her father being an elf, both of Alfheim(I grew tired of calling it "the Old World"). (Why didn't I think of this earlier, you might ask? No clue, is my answer) The drow and elves of Alfheim both protect the balance. The drow society in Alfheim is nothing like that of Faerūn, and Elenya grew up in the comforts and safety of Alfheim. Her parents went to visit Faerūn, but were attacked and killed by a band of ogres.
Elenya's grand-mother then decided to raise her, teaching her all about different drow societies and the drow tongue. Elenya was trained as a priestess, but also learned about the balance. She was then initiated into a coven of witches, learning to combine cleric training with druidic faith. (Witch capable of casting both druidic and cleric spells and turn undead, no arcane magic involved)
However, she longed for the road and wished to adventure. With the blessing of her grand-mother, she went to Faerūn, in search for adventurers. However, Faerūn's surfacers were not kind to her. She was either met by a wall of ice or chased out of the city, merely because of her parentage.

So she tries a new city called Athkatla, where she meets the PC. As she travels with him/her in the party, there will be the quest of saving Alfheim from the army of undead and so on.

Ok, I'm ready to get my head chopped off. *bows down* :P ;)

Edited by Yochlol, 14 October 2004 - 11:04 AM.

L'alurl faerbol zhah mrann d'ssinss - The best magic item is a male lover.

#49 GreyViper

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 11:15 AM

One day she met a male elven slave. They fell in love but had to keep their love secret.

Woha live elven slave in Underdark and falling love to drow captor! :huh: Ok, maybe if they used each other for their own ends. Slave to escape the other her kinky needs then yes or if he had something that she really needed.
Btw I think the half-drow part can be droped, but if you want dragic char from Underdark, well there are other ways. IF YOU WANT Half-Drow there are few living on surface one of them could be her parent.
Democracy is three Dragons and a Cow voting on what's for dinner!

"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace."

Barracks Graffiti
Sparta Command

#50 Dr.Shaman

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 11:23 AM

You don't need lower your NPC's stats like this, I think. Just look:

Viconia:_____Elenya:

Cleric_____Cleric

Str 10 < Str 11
Dex 19 > Dex 14
Con 8 = Con 8
Int 16 > Int 12
Wis 18 = Wis 18
Cha 14 = Cha 14
(Con,Wis and Cha are the same)
total: 85 > total: 77

Don't give up! ;) :thumb:

Edited by Dr.Shaman, 14 October 2004 - 11:28 AM.


#51 -Ashara-

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 11:42 AM

OK, let us try it from another end.

We scared you sufficiently of the label 'Mary-Sue'. But not enough of the 'essence' of Mary Sue.

However if you are doing it for the first time, without the knowledge of the other people's writing, you keep grabbing for the most over-used concepts (from another world, outsider etc)... For me the only reason I try my best to avoid them, is because it was done so many times before me and I do not believe I am talented enough to breathe fresh air into things like that. I think one can pull one first Mary Sue successfully (Salvatore's Drizzt). Spin-offs would make readers... er would not make readers (who cares about 'another' dual-weilding good drow ranger...)

However, an interesting half-drow is a tough to create character but if done well... oh, my! It could be cool. I did a few. They all sucked big time, the worst of them being a manservant/son-in-law of one violet-eyed orphaned lady who was Valygar's lover (rolls her eyes).

So here is some good reading:

a good, respecting level-headed article about Mary-Sue.

http://enterprise.ma...ma/MarySue.html

here is a test (it is slightly edgy) - and the value of this test is not in scoring the points, imo, but in that it identifies the most common and most sour plot and character flaws when developping a character. So do not try to score your NPC, just read the descriptions of the points.

http://www.springhol...ary/marysue.htm

#52 Yochlol

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 12:28 PM

A half-drow would be cool, you say, if done well, or is that more sarcasm? Is there a point in having a half-drow at all, or shall we just make her an elf from Faerūn?

Or better yet; how about a half-orc? :P :lol:

Ok, serious though, what are your suggestions? I've forgotten the count of all the times I've asked about this, so please just give me an answer...

As for the stats(thank you, Dr. Shaman):

Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 8
Int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 14

Or just out of pure fun, let's make her a male, elven cleric, a priest of Corellon! That'll be the day. The story and quests I'll think of later. Right now I'm going to bed. Good night! :zzz:
L'alurl faerbol zhah mrann d'ssinss - The best magic item is a male lover.

#53 -Ashara-

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 01:32 PM

Integrating a half-drow is a difficult thing. You will have to deal with a few problems:

Parents

Drow Mother Theory:

-a female drow with little hope to advance in the society either seduced into the dreams of better life (and conquest) of the Surface or who have been contemplating the escape on her own, because she sees that her chances of survival are relatively low. In this case, an elven slave (a relatively viable concept) can be a humiliated and imprisoned individual with little goodness/nobless in him, but lots of will to survive and readiness to do whatever for that. Falling in love as a bud of this scenario is unadvisable imo, because it makes for a more viable if they use each other ? she to have a surface link/home once she gets there, and he ? to escape with his life.

Problems with this scenario: difficult to explain why elf lived long enough to get to know the drow. Maybe he was continuously revived and tortured etc, while she was a service girl for the priestesses, and cleaned the torture chambers/temple. Or she actually captured him with the direct goal of making him into her link to the surface. There is also evidence that Thayvians trade with drow normally iirc, so an enslaved translator on a trading mission can be a window of opportunity (but again, the mother has to be willing to escape Underdark);

Drow Father Theory:

Drow already on the surface is the best bet, either a refugee, or one of the Forest of Mir rumored colony;
Problems with this scenario: difficult to come up with the believable scenario for the meeting. Drow on the surface would be of reclusive and hiding folk. Viconia with her near misses is ridiculous. It is possible to use a hermit drow and a colony of wild elves observing him form afar a-la Sojourn; within the game limitations the subplot might easily deteriorate into A! Forbidden Love scenario, which is a bit ?used?. I would rather prefer it as a roguish couple with thieving and having good time motives.

Independent Theory

It can also be a drow slave sold to an evil elf or half-elf. It can work for both cases, mother and father-drow, but there I have a certain reluctance offering it, since it did not work for me in the past ? it ends up mushy.

Conception and Early Survival

It would increase the hypothetical half-drow chances of survival if a stable couple of parents raise him. It also increases his/her chances of getting good solid training in something with people who are not only chancy interested in training him/her. It provides realistic source of money and support. It gives the character knowledge of the world enough to navigate it successfully on his/her own later.

Reasons for starting adventuring and connection to the game events

If parents or at least one parent were presently adventurous, the child can be integrated into his/her parents business. If not, an exile scenario is plausible, but ?blamelessly? is probably better avoided.

The Helm priest scenario you have suggested is unlikely, because elves do not allow humans on their territory easily. Suldanesselar elves interrogated PC in the middle of the battle, and it is small potatoes compare to the treatment a stranger gets in for example Evereska. A non-elf would not be admitted, unless he is a known champion of goodness of the pretty much Elminster?s scale. And the temples would be protected by more than a gullible girl. Much more.

So, while I like most the idea that the character is the thief her/himself, the thief can also be among elves, and the character ? one of the thief-catchers who set out to recover the artifact.

Connect the thief (or the character) to Bodhi and Irenicus (who wanted the artifact to somehow put pressure on Seldarine or needed it for locking Sul ? it might have been that lamp Bodhi had in her layer for example) ? and you get yourself a motive for the character to join PC. Though with Sul it would be Rillifane's Temple, I guess.

Or simply send him/her to find out what Exiles are up to.

Edited by domi, 14 October 2004 - 01:35 PM.


#54 GreyViper

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 02:09 AM

Why not a half-dark elven paladin raised on the surface who wants to prove his/her freinds that he/she can be better and noble then the drow & that skin color does not matter etc.
Democracy is three Dragons and a Cow voting on what's for dinner!

"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace."

Barracks Graffiti
Sparta Command

#55 -Ashara-

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 05:51 AM

yes, but that would be so... drizzt.

#56 GreyViper

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 06:21 AM

Yes and no. Yes because both have similar motives (to be accepted among other surface dwellers or prove somebody he/she is worthy his/her attention. As for no part here is where the divine part comes in him/her being paladin and all. He/she could be an instrument fulfilling some obscure plan for his/her deity or striving to earn deity?s attention/blessing. With good imagination and skill anything would work.
Democracy is three Dragons and a Cow voting on what's for dinner!

"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace."

Barracks Graffiti
Sparta Command

#57 Dr.Shaman

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 06:43 AM

I don't know much about followers of Eilistraee, but:

Her mother/father can be a surface-elf advanturer captured by some drow in the underdark and rescued by the followers of Eilistraee. Then she/he fell in love with a male/female form the group and decide to stay with him/her. Then Enelia was born... drow raid... and Enelia escaped from the Underdark and met PC "somewhere".

This also leave a ravange desire that allow PC to shape Enelia's alignment.

#58 -Ashara-

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 06:54 AM

Still, someone of an 'evil' race striving to be good is a staple; it's ye good old 'Ugly Duckling'; there are tone and a half of characters like that.

For me it would be muh more interesting to see a not completly good or outright evil representative of a precievingly evil race. Because there are pretty much none. Anyone who is announcing that they are doing drow (Solaufein, Ginafae, Ninafer, Yesraena) ends up with a good drow. Same with Half-Orcs.

I would buy that if it would be a bit more of Brienne's scenario (ie big truly ugly woman with a heart of a true knight who is in love with that shiny guy (from existing cast it might be Haer'Dalis, or an OC) who would never return her feelings no matter what and she knows it and only wishes to die in his service and for him), rather than Drizzt's thinggy (ye garden variety 'the abused good guy who becomes a hero').

But that would be fitting for a Half-Orc. The problem is that within the game, you won't have enough 'flight' to work such a thing, ending up with the relatively boring dialogues with NPCs. Unless you are willing to give it a huge development, showing all possible sides, having a large amount of banters with each NPC.

See, you cannot allow the new NPC to 'pull the blanket' over his or her head, and talk only of her/himself to everyone at every banter; you also cannot do these banters repetitive.

Plus you already have a woman of an odd race trying to prove herself as a champion of goodness - Mazzy.

So that's why I won't be interested in the scenario you suggested.

Edited by domi, 15 October 2004 - 07:23 AM.


#59 -Ashara-

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 07:02 AM

I don't know much about followers of Eilistraee, but:

Her mother/father can be a surface-elf advanturer captured by some drow in the underdark and rescued by the followers of Eilistraee. Then she/he fell in love with a male/female form the group and decide to stay with him/her. Then Enelia was born... drow raid... and Enelia escaped from the Underdark and met PC "somewhere".

This also leave a ravange desire that allow PC to shape Enelia's alignment.

To the best of my knowledge, followers of Ellistrae are largely surface dwelling group and hunted and killed off as soon as they are revealed in the Underdark drow communities. After long painful tortures. I do not think they have any significant power to survive and establish themselves as a group, let alone oppose Lolth.

It might depend on a specific drow city though and needs to be researched. Not Ust Natha or Menzzoberanzzan at the time of the Bhaalspawn saga iirc.

If she goes onto revenge drive against drow, she is a candidate for Shevarash's herd. But elf on a revenge drive is not the most pleasent character to tackle, and she/he certainly would not fit in the "lovely" and "perky" and "cheerful" kind joking with the guys.

Edited by domi, 15 October 2004 - 07:04 AM.


#60 Chevar

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Posted 15 October 2004 - 08:41 AM

You know you could make the character mentally ill (delusional) they could BELEIVE that that's their history, while being a completely normal character.

OR if you really want to be cruel I have an 'out' for the 'dragon' thing if you're more interested in dialog options than power. Once again it would be an otherwise NORMAL character.

A viscious dragon had decades dominating the people in nearby villages, and forcing the villagers to worship the dragon, forsaking their old gods. The gods grew angry and sent their servants (paladins, clerics, etc) to slay the dragon.

.... badda bing bada boom, they kill it.

The dragon swore that it would return as a dracolich, and return them all. The clerics banded together to decide a way to prevent this, and a slightly cracked chaotic neutral character decided they should bring it back from the dead themselves, but through the reincarnation spell, not ressurection. The gods which the dragon had angered decided to intervene when the ressurection spell was cast, insuring the dragon would not only remember it's former life, but be forced to live as one of those it hated most.

---------------------------

this allows for the surley dragon dialogs without the cheesy "i'm a dragon" plotline, and game balance issues. It's still a little over the top, but it's the best I've been able to come up with - took nearly a week.

Edited by Chevar, 15 October 2004 - 08:42 AM.

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