43 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

As the title suggests.
This part was already revised in Refinements v1, but it lacked all the documentation, and it had a few technical glitches.

In the meantime Caedwyr released his Pnp Celestials mod, a project that revised good Devas and Planetars and brought them close to their pnp origins. While this mod was a fine touch on these creatures, it left many unfinished parts: it never addressed evil Celestials for example. Also -and this is only a personal opinion- pnp can be nice, but in some cases it is simply unfitting in BG2.

After these, I decided to once again revise Celestials in BG2, using the starting materials and ideas of both Refinements and Pnp Celestials. The aim is to make these creatures clearly as powerful as they should be compared to other creatures(according to pnp), yet retain the classical "BG2-feeling", and try to make them fully synchronized with other parts and creatures in the game. Revised Celestials will include Devas - Fallen Devas, Planetars - Dark Planetars, and even Solars - Fallen Solars.

So much for now, details will follow later.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 26 October 2004 - 05:20 AM.

[Andyr]

I am not sure what happens to an Evil Celestial in pnp - I think they might become Fiends. I think Fallen Devas/Planetars/Solars may be an invention of BGII.

[Caedwyr]

From the True Dweomer Thread (funny place for me to have put it, but *shrug*)

Actually if you are looking on making changes to the evil versions of the Deva/Planetar spells, I'd recommend summoning a controllable, improved version of the Pit Fiend or Balors. The reason I tend to balk at fallen Devas and Solars as being the equivalent of their good counterparts is that by definition, they've lost some of their abilities and are weaker than their non-fallen counterparts. If a fallen-deva/planetar/solar goes far enough, they can turn into a demon/devil. However, a celestial can also fall, if they break from their deities allowed alignments (eg, a Lawful Good deva of a Lawful Good patron god, becomes Chaotic Good means the deva has fallen and loses some of his abilities.)

[Andyr]

Gotcha.

Since a Good character would presumably summon a non - fallen Celestial, and a Celestial who falls too much can become a Fiend, I'd question the need for fallen Celestials to appear in the game at all - why not use a fiend?

Edited by Andyr, 26 October 2004 - 08:20 AM.

[Caedwyr]

Well, whatever TGM decides to "Improve", I'll be interested to see what he does.

[T.G.Maestro]

Huh, finished. It was some massive work for 2 days, but here it is...

And to answer the idea about removing these "Fallen" versions: since they are in, I really don't feel like dropping them. To be honest, I always liked those creatures, no matter if they are not legit pnp monsters. They make sense in BG2, and have their special place in the power-scale of creatures.

Here are the details of the new/modified versions:

1.: DEVA (devagood.cre)General: Humanoid
Race: Planetar
Class: Fighter
Racial Enemy: Demonic
Level: 25
Hit Dice: (HPs): 25D8, 140 HPs
THAC0: 4
AC: -6
Attacks/round: 2
XP value: 15.000

Ability scores:
STR: 17, DEX: 19, CON: 17, INT: 19, WIS: 16, CHA: 20

Resistances:
Magic: 45%, Fire: 100%, Cold: 100%, Electricity: 100%, Magical Fire: 50%, Magical Cold: 100%, Physical: 10%, Poison: 100%

Effects:
- Immune to Petrification, Polymorph, Instant Death and Slay effects, Level Drain, Charm, Backstabs, Poison.
- Immune to +1 and normal weapons.
- Sees invisible creatures.
- Permanent Protection from Evil (+2 AC and save bonus vs. evilcreatures)
- Regenerates 1 HP/second.
- Walks at 150% of the normal movement rate.
- Protected from Critical Hits.
- Mastery in Maces.

Weapons:
- TG#DEVAG: +3 mace with all the powers of a Mace of Disruption, uncounsciousness on hit for 3 rounds (save vs. spells to avoid), 25% to dispel magic on hit.

Innate powers:
- Bless (at will)
- Cure Light Wounds (5/day)
- Detect Evil (at will)
- Aid (at will)
- Remove Fear (at will)
- Find Traps (3/day)
- Know Alignment (at will)
- Dispel Magic (3/day)
- Remove Paralysis (at will)
- Cure Medium Wounds (3/day)
- Cure Disease (at will)
- Cure Serious Wounds (2/day)
- Lesser Restoration (1/day)
- Cure Critical Wounds (1/day)
- Blade Barrier (1/day)
- Raise Dead (1/day)
- Holy Word (1/day)
- Teleport Without Error (at will)


2.: Fallen Deva (devaevil.cre)
General: Humanoid
Race: Fallen Planetar
Class: Fighter
Racial Enemy: Planetar
Level: 25
Hit Dice: (HPs): 25D8, 135 HPs
THAC0: 2
AC: -4
Attacks/round: 2
XP value: 15.000

Ability scores:
STR: 18, DEX: 19, CON: 17, INT: 19, WIS: 15, CHA: 20

Resistances:
Magic: 40%, Fire: 100%, Cold: 100%, Electricity: 100%, Magical Fire: 50%, Magical Cold: 100%, Physical: 15%, Poison: 100%

Effects:
- Immune to Petrification, Polymorph, Instant Death and Slay effects, Charm, Backstabs, Poison.
- Immune to +1 and normal weapons.
- Sees invisible creatures.
- Permanent Protection from Good (+2 AC and save bonus vs. evilcreatures)
- Regenerates 1 HP/second.
- Walks at 150% of the normal movement rate.
- Protected from Critical Hits.
- Mastery in Bastard Swords.

Weapons:
TG#DEVAE: +3 bastard sword, 50% for additional 5D6 Fire damage on hit (save vs. spell to avoid), 25% to dispel magic on hit.

Innate powers:

- Remove Fear (at will)
- Doom (at will)
- Find Traps (3/day)
- Know Alignment (at will)
- Dispel Magic (3/day)
- Cause Serious Wounds (at will)
- Cloak of Fear (at will)
- Cause Critical Wounds (3/day)
- Blade Barrier (1/day)
- Unholy Word (1/day)
- Hold Person (1/day)
- Slay Living (1/day)
- Teleport Without Error (at will)


3.:PLANETAR (plangood.cre)
General: Humanoid
Race: Planetar
Class: Fighter-Cleric
Racial Enemy: Demonic
Level: 25-13
Hit Dice: (HPs): 25D10, 165 HPs
THAC0: 3
AC: -7
Attacks/round: 3
XP value: 20.000

Ability scores:
STR: 19, DEX: 19, CON: 18, INT: 18, WIS: 21, CHA: 21

Resistances:
Magic: 65%, Fire: 100%, Cold: 100%, Electricity: 100%, Magical Fire: 50%, Magical Cold: 100%, Physical: 20%, Poison: 100%

Effects:
- Immune to Petrification, Polymorph, Instant Death and Slay effects, Level Drain, Charm, Confusion/Rigid Thinking/Fear, Feeblemindedness, Maze, Imprisonment, Backstabs, Poison.
- Immune to +2 weapons and less.
- Sees invisible creatures.
- Permanent Protection from Evil (+2 AC and save bonus vs. evilcreatures)
- Regenerates 2 HP/second.
- Walks at 175% of the normal movement rate.
- Protected from Critical Hits.
- Grand Mastery in 2-handed swords
- Turn Undead as a 13th level Cleric.
- Has major access to all clerical spheres and can cast spells as a 13th level Cleric.

Weapons:
- TG#PLANG: +3 great sword with all the powers of a Silver Sword, 25% to dispel magic on hit.

Innate powers:
- Bless (at will)
- Detect Evil (at will)
- Aid (at will)
- Remove Fear (at will)
- Find Traps (5/day)
- Know Alignment (at will)
- Dispel Magic (5/day)
- Remove Paralysis (at will)
- Cure Disease (at will)
- Cure Serious Wounds (3/day)
- Remove Curse (1/day)
- Greater Restoration (1/day)
- Blade Barrier (3/day)
- Raise Dead (3/day)
- True Seeing (3/day)
- Heal (1/day)
- Holy Word (1/day)
- Teleport Without Error (at will)


4.: Fallen Planetar (planevil.cre)
General: Humanoid
Race: Fallen Planetar
Class: Fighter-Cleric
Racial Enemy: Planetar
Level: 25-13
Hit Dice: (HPs): 25D10, 160 HPs
THAC0: 1
AC: -5
Attacks/round: 3
XP value: 20.000

Ability scores:
STR: 20, DEX: 18, CON: 18, INT: 18, WIS: 20, CHA: 20

Resistances:
Magic: 55%, Fire: 100%, Cold: 100%, Electricity: 100%, Magical Fire: 50%, Magical Cold: 100%, Physical: 25%, Poison: 100%

Effects:
- Immune to Petrification, Polymorph, Instant Death and Slay effects, Charm, Confusion/Rigid Thinking/Fear, Feeblemindedness, Maze, Imprisonment, Backstabs, Poison.
- Immune to +2 and normal weapons.
- Sees invisible creatures.
- Permanent Protection from Good (+2 AC and save bonus vs. evilcreatures)
- Regenerates 2 HP/second.
- Walks at 175% of the normal movement rate.
- Protected from Critical Hits.
- Mastery in 2-handed Swords.
- Turn Undead as 13th level Cleric.
- Has major access to all clerical spheres and can cast spells as a 13th level Cleric.

Weapons:
TG#PLANG: +3 great sword with all the powers of a Silver Sword, 25% to dispel magic on hit.

Innate powers:
- Remove Fear (at will)
- Doom (at will)
- Find Traps (at will)
- Know Alignment (at will)
- Dispel Magic (5/day)
- Cloak of Fear (at will)
- Cause Critical Wounds (at will)
- Blade Barrier (3/day)
- Unholy Word (1/day)
- Hold Person (5/day)
- Slay Living (3/day)
- True Seeing (3/day)
- Symbol: Death (1/day)
- Teleport Without Error (at will)


5.: SOLAR (TG#SOL1.cre)
General: Humanoid
Race: Solar
Class: Fighter-Cleric
Racial Enemy: Demonic
Level: 30-20
Hit Dice: (HPs): 30D10, 215 HPs
THAC0: 1
AC: -10
Attacks/round: 7/2
XP value: 25.000

Ability scores:
STR: 21, DEX: 20, CON: 20, INT: 20, WIS: 22, CHA: 22

Resistances:
Magic: 80%, Fire: 100%, Cold: 100%, Electricity: 100%, Magical Fire: 100%, Magical Cold: 100%, Physical: 30%, Poison: 100%

Effects:
- Immune to Petrification, Polymorph, Instant Death and Slay effects, Level Drain, Charm, Berserking, Horror, Disease, Hold, Timestop, Confusion/Rigid Thinking/Fear, Feeblemindedness, Maze, Imprisonment, Backstabs, Poison.
- Immune to +3 weapons and less.
- Sees invisible creatures.
- Permanent Protection from Evil (+2 AC and save bonus vs. evilcreatures)
- Regenerates 3 HP/second.
- -3 to spellcasting speed.
- permanent Holy Aura (uses the paladin HLA)
- Walks at 200% of the normal movement rate.
- Protected from Critical Hits.
- Grand Mastery in 2-handed swords and long bows.
- Turn Undead as a 20th level Cleric.
- Has major access to all clerical spheres and can cast spells as a 20th level Cleric.

Weapons:
- TG#SOLG: +5 great sword with all the powers of a Mace of Disrption and a Silver Sword, dispels magic on hit.
- TG#SOLB: +5 long bow, 8D6 magic damage (save vs. spells for half), 25% to slay the target (save vs. spells at -2 to avoid), dispels magic on hit.

Innate powers:
- Bless (at will)
- Detect Evil (at will)
- Aid (at will)
- Remove Fear (at will)
- Find Traps (at will)
- Know Alignment (at will)
- Dispel Magic (at will)
- Remove Paralysis (at will)
- Cure Disease (at will)
- Cure Critical Wounds (at will)
- Remove Curse (3/day)
- Greater Restoration (3/day)
- Blade Barrier (5/day)
- Raise Dead (at will)
- True Seeing (at will)
- Heal (3/day)
- Holy Word (3/day)
- Resurrection (1/day)
- Globe of Blades (1/day)
- Summon Deva (1/day)
- Teleport Without Error (at will)


5.: FALLEN SOLAR (TG#SOL2.cre)
General: Humanoid
Race: Fallen Solar
Class: Fighter-Cleric
Racial Enemy: Solar
Level: 30-20
Hit Dice: (HPs): 30D10, 205 HPs
THAC0: -1
AC: -8
Attacks/round: 4
XP value: 25.000

Ability scores:
STR: 22, DEX: 19, CON: 20, INT: 20, WIS: 21, CHA: 21

Resistances:
Magic: 70%, Fire: 100%, Cold: 100%, Electricity: 100%, Magical Fire: 100%, Magical Cold: 100%, Physical: 35%, Poison: 100%

Effects:
- Immune to Petrification, Polymorph, Instant Death and Slay effects, Charm, Berserking, Horror, Disease, Hold, Timestop, Confusion/Rigid Thinking/Fear, Feeblemindedness, Maze, Imprisonment, Backstabs, Poison.
- Immune to +3 and normal weapons.
- Sees invisible creatures.
- Permanent Protection from Good (+2 AC and save bonus vs. evilcreatures)
- Regenerates 3 HP/second.
- -3 to spellcasting speed.
- Aura of Flaming Death.
- Walks at 200% of the normal movement rate.
- Protected from Critical Hits.
- Mastery in 2-handed Swords and long bows.
- Turn Undead as 20th level Cleric.
- Has major access to all clerical spheres and can cast spells as a 20th level Cleric.

Weapons:
- TG#SOLE: +5 great sword with all the powers of a Silver Sword, 50% chance for 5D6 Fire damage on hit (save vs. spells to avoid), dispels magic on hit.
- TG#SOLB: +5 long bow, 8D6 magic damage (save vs. spells for half), 25% to slay the target (save vs. spells at -2 to avoid), dispels magic on hit.

Innate powers:
- Remove Fear (at will)
- Doom (at will)
- Find Traps (at will)
- Know Alignment (at will)
- Dispel Magic (at will)
- Cloak of Fear (at will)
- Cause Critical Wounds (at will)
- Blade Barrier (5/day)
- Unholy Word (3/day)
- Hold Person (at will)
- Slay Living (5/day)
- True Seeing (at will)
- Symbol: Death (3/day)
- Summon Fallen Deva (1/day)
- Aura of Flaming Death (1/day)
- Teleport Without Error (at will)

[NiGHTMARE]

If you're keeping fallen versions of normally incredibly good creatures, why not add in virtuous versions of normally incredibly evil creatures (i.e. baatezu and tanar'ri)? (note to the low of wit: yes, that was a joke!)

[Schatten]

If you're keeping fallen versions of normally incredibly good creatures, why not add in virtuous versions of normally incredibly evil creatures (i.e. baatezu and tanar'ri)?

yeah, i like that. can you make those, tgm? with this face :love: and the body of a bunny? puuleaseeee.



i really dont like the solar creatures. too powerfull and gamebreaking as summons. not to mention 25k is not enough for those powerhouses.

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually -though not according to pnp- "fallen" celestials could possibly serve as transition between Celestials and Fiends...

[T.G.Maestro]

i really dont like the solar creatures. too powerfull and gamebreaking as summons. not to mention 25k is not enough for those powerhouses.

They are not available as summons, at least not in a normal way: there is a 5% chance/ Divine Interventions that one of them appears. And that is completely reasonable for that ability.
About the XP: it can always be increased to 30.000, but not more.

[Caedwyr]

One thing you should probably remember. Some of the work done on the mod was by Galatygon.

From the Readme:

The scripts, Anti-Magic Shell graphics and sounds, and the Dimensional Door graphics and sounds are by Galactygon and he should be contacted for permission before using either in your mod.

So make sure to get his permisson before going ahead with using them.

[Jinnai]

Well if the fallen versions of the creatures were only summonable by neutral characters i could see them being okay...but....

[T.G.Maestro]

The scripts, Anti-Magic Shell graphics and sounds, and the Dimensional Door graphics and sounds are by Galactygon and he should be contacted for permission before using either in your mod.

- We will use entirely new scripts;
- Anti-Magic Shell was dropped (it was for the Astral Deva, AFAIK);
- And about the DD graphics: they are not Galatygon's product, they were simply "stolen" from IWD2...

So hopefully this part is already OK.

Well if the fallen versions of the creatures were only summonable by neutral characters i could see them being okay...but....

I don't understand you here Jinnai. You mean that only neutral characters should be able to summon EVIL celestials...?

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 27 October 2004 - 01:22 PM.

[Caedwyr]

Actually I was refering to some of the rebuilding of the Teleport Without Error spell. That was done by Galatygon, including the some of the sounds, and visual effects integration.

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually I was refering to some of the rebuilding of the Teleport Without Error spell. That was done by Galatygon, including the some of the sounds, and visual effects integration.

To be precise, that wasn't done by him either - he used an EXISTING ability, one that is present in BG2 SoA (or copied the concept), and added the IWD visuals. (I'd like to note here though that his versions contain some bugs with the visuals)
Of course I can ask for a permisson, if that is needed here.

Wow...

That Fallen Solar .cre is going to make the first part of the final battle really hard (Iren, Bodhi, Immy, 2 Fallen Solars). Unless the new .cre's are only for Divine Intervention, and you're keeping original FS .cre for the ones in Ascension Final Battle.

Undecided yet. We haven't done anything to Ascension yet - although we have the full permission to alter it as we see fit. Since we still lack our main scripter (The_Bigg), we wasn't able to progress with the Five Revisions component as we planned. If we get him back and will be able to resume the work on that component, there is a good chance we will slightly mess with the final battle - and in that case we will definitely replace the (completely cheesy) Ascension Fallen Solars.

Things would get really complicated if Mel ended up summoning 2 of the new solars ;0

I'm not sure about this part - I think I won't allow Mel to summon these, max Fallen Planetars. There will be 2 Falen Solars at the first battle at the Throne of Blood though.

BTW, was it just me, or did the fallen solars sword in nearinfinity have 2d10+20 or something like that damage?

Yes, their damage value is very very cheesy in that version.

[T.G.Maestro]

A question towards the community:

What do you think about Solars and Wish? Normally they should be able to use this 9th level spell, yet I dropped it because of balancing reasons.
Do you think it would be acceptable to grant a Wish for a Solar/Fallen Solar, or lets just forget the idea? Or maybe add Limited Wish instead?

Opinions are welcome.

[Feanor]

A question towards the community:

What do you think about Solars and Wish? Normally they should be able to use this 9th level spell, yet I dropped it because of balancing reasons.
Do you think it would be acceptable to grant a Wish for a Solar/Fallen Solar, or lets just forget the idea? Or maybe add Limited Wish instead?

Opinions are welcome.

"Wish" only with the effect which this spell has in BG2 (I ask because I've seen in a thread that the Wish spell could also have other effects besides those already used by the BG2 version of it) ?

A second observation : your deva is planned to use a mace. But the avatar used for this creature has a sword (the animation I mean)...

[Feanor]

On the other hand, Wish seems too powerful, especially due to the high wisdom of the Solars, which leaves almost no place for bad effects. Maybe Limited Wish in my opinion is acceptable.

[T.G.Maestro]

Wish seems too powerful, especially due to the high wisdom of the Solars, which leaves almost no place for bad effects

You know what, I gave it a try, and created an innate Wish for Solars. To my surprise, they always get the "medium-success" result, meaning there will be good and bad choices too. Also, it is worth to note that the triple length Timestop effect is disabled for them .
It seems it can be added after all, far from unbalancing at that point.

"Wish" only with the effect which this spell has in BG2

Of course, the original BG2 effects are used here.

A second observation : your deva is planned to use a mace. But the avatar used for this creature has a sword (the animation I mean)...

To be honest, it ALWAYS used a mace, even in the original version - but the creators haven't added the mace animation. You can only assign a sword and a long bow weapon animation to these creatures. A shame, but I'd like to keep the original weapons of Devas, as they use maces of Disruption in pnp.