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DA, NWN and BG


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#1 Feanor

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 02:33 AM

What good things from BG and NWN would you like DA to keep ? What bad things to drop ?

Let's take it in order.

BG1 :

1. The Area Style. In BG2, for instance, all the areas are somehow related to your quests and also you can't reach them unless someone gives you the proper task and marks the location on your map. That was a dumb idea. For instance, you should have been able to travel to Umar Hills or Trademeet even though you did not meet their emissaries. The fact that you are able to go only where you have a task to carry out is quite annoying. On that map from BG2, if Bioware had respected the AD&D geography, there should have been some other cities where you could have gone. Adding wilderness areas will also be nice.

BG2 :

1. NPC's personalities. The BG1 NPC's acted just like dumb dummies.
2. The party (that's together with BG1 :D )

NWN :

1. The perspective. I found that aerial view from NWN far better from that "over-the-shoulders" view from his competitor, Morrowind.
2. Henchmen personalities (original NWN and HotU). Maybe it sounds strange, but I shall explain : the NPC's interaction had a problem. They had comments to your decisions and between each other, but there was nothing revealed about their past (except for the romance, because their stories were part of flirts). There are some NPC which we don't know almost anything about : Minsc, Yoshimo, Korgan, Haer-Dalis, Mazzy, Nalia, Valygar and Edwin. Exception are Keldorn (due to his banters with Anomen), Cernd and, of course, Jan. But again there are only general things. Although you can't control them, you can get a far better insight into the henchmen's history from NWN.

To drop :

Well, here NWN has the most flaws. Obviously, the henchmen idea, the linearity and the map style (the maps in NWN give the impression of a table for toy soldiers).

Edited by Feanor, 20 December 2004 - 02:35 AM.


#2 Shed

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 05:12 AM

What good things from BG and NWN would you like DA to keep ? What bad things to drop ?

    Let's take it in order.

    BG1 :

1. The Area Style. In BG2, for instance, all the areas are somehow related to your quests and also you can't reach them unless someone gives you the proper task and marks the location on your map. That was a dumb idea. For instance, you should have been able to travel to Umar Hills or Trademeet even though you did not meet their emissaries. The fact that you are able to go only where you have a task to carry out is quite annoying. On that map from BG2, if Bioware had respected the AD&D geography, there should have been some other cities where you could have gone. Adding wilderness areas will also be nice.


On the other hand, allowing the player to roam the whole landscape gives a feeling of being lost and confused. It also means they are less likely to find all the exciting things in the original areas before spending lots of time aimlessly wandering the world. Also it points towards the includion of in-between areas, largely empty. I have no objection to limiting the player's range of movement, as long as a good reason is given.

    BG2 :

1. NPC's personalities. The BG1 NPC's acted just like dumb dummies.
2. The party (that's together with BG1  :D )

Yup :D .

    NWN :

1. The perspective. I found that aerial view from NWN far better from that "over-the-shoulders" view from his competitor, Morrowind.
2. Henchmen personalities (original NWN and HotU). Maybe it sounds strange, but I shall explain : the NPC's interaction had a problem. They had comments to your decisions and between each other, but there was nothing revealed about their past (except for the romance, because their stories were part of flirts). There are some NPC which we don't know almost anything about : Minsc, Yoshimo, Korgan, Haer-Dalis, Mazzy, Nalia, Valygar and Edwin. Exception are Keldorn (due to his banters with Anomen), Cernd and, of course, Jan. But again there are only general things. Although you can't control them, you can get a far better insight into the henchmen's history from NWN.


One hopes that we can have interesting believable NPCs with history and banter, yes :). I couldn't stand henchmen.

#3 Feanor

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 06:17 AM

A curiousity, Shed, about this statement of yours, because it's a little bit too general : "I couldn't stand henchmen." What exactly could you not stand about the henchmen ? It annoyed me the fact that you can't control them (and the result = 0 tactics), but some of their personalities were more developed even than those of BG2 NPC's.

#4 Archmage Silver

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 07:55 AM

What good things from BG and NWN would you like DA to keep ? What bad things to drop ?

Approximately the same things you posted.

#5 Shed

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 08:41 AM

I didn't play with many henchmen, but they could not be controlled (even their inventory in orig nwn). Their AI was poor. Perhaps I got unlucky with my choice of henchmen -_- , but those I had were very boring (e.g. Tomi Undergallows).

#6 Tom

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 12:11 PM

Good things from BG:
1) A cool storyline
BG2:
1) The many and varied unique items/spells
2) Good party interaction, character development of NPCs and cool characters.
3) A cool, large city to explore.
I didnt mind the restirctions on the places you can go for the reasons Shed stated.
NwN:
Not much at all from the NwN story, I thought it was weak, artificial and that they took the easy route when making it (all the quests seemed generic)
The henchmen were alright for interaction, but I would have preferred more interaction with them, and I definately didnt like the fact that you had very little/no control over what they did. I think the BGII style NPCs were far better.
Perhaps the ability to mod the game to the extent you can in NwN.
IWD: havent played the game really, so nothing from here.

Edited by Tom, 20 December 2004 - 12:13 PM.

Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.

#7 -Quiet Lurker-

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Posted 20 December 2004 - 06:39 PM

It's not included in the choices, but in my opinion, Planescape Torment has the best party system.

Unlike Baldur's Gate, you can interact with your party outside of banters, allowing your main character to develop a relationship (both romantic and non-romantic) with his party. Like Baldur's Gate, there are actually banters between party members.

Unlike Neverwinter Nights, you actually HAVE a party. :rolleyes:
Seriously though, the ability to properly coordinate tactics (as opposed to telling your henchman: stay, follow, fight, defend) allows a low level party to take on much tougher opponents. The henchmen system of Neverwinter Nights reduces the game to mere power-leveling instead of roleplaying.
Of course, when your group is reduced to one henchman (two henchmen for HotU) there isn't much tactics to be implemented anyway. :P

The over-the-shoulder view of Neverwinter Nights is nice, but it makes it difficult for party management (i.e. you can't see your party if they are behind you), and it is something that I am more than willing to sacrifice for a proper party. <_<

#8 Feanor

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 12:12 AM

The over-the-shoulder view of Neverwinter Nights is nice,


I think you meant Morrowind, because in NWN you can move your camera anyway you like. :huh:

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 12:59 AM

The over-the-shoulder view of Neverwinter Nights is nice,


I think you meant Morrowind, because in NWN you can move your camera anyway you like. :huh:

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Of the three views: top-down, chase, and over-the-shoulder, only the top-down view is suitable for party management.

#10 Feanor

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Posted 21 December 2004 - 01:20 AM

The over-the-shoulder view of Neverwinter Nights is nice,


I think you meant Morrowind, because in NWN you can move your camera anyway you like. :huh:

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Of the three views: top-down, chase, and over-the-shoulder, only the top-down view is suitable for party management.

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Oh, you are right, I forgot that because I never considered using anything else than the top-down view.

#11 Archmage Silver

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 06:06 AM

Heh heh. I never used any other either.

#12 Shed

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 08:23 AM

Do you believe camera selection should be manual or automatic?

I rather like the idea of a chase view, which snaps to top-down when combat begins :).

#13 Archmage Silver

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Posted 22 December 2004 - 08:25 AM

Both auto and manual would be the best, so that players could choose which one to use.

#14 Feanor

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 02:17 AM

Do you believe camera selection should be manual or automatic?

I rather like the idea of a chase view, which snaps to top-down when combat begins :).

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Manual. I prefer to control myself the camera. The camera movements from PoP: Sands for time, for instance, drove me crazy.

#15 Shed

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 03:14 AM

I have seen automatic cameras work well (always helped by the option of manual override). Since the player will have the option to to control just one character, leaving his party to fight for themselves, a chase, isometric or cinematic cam might be a nice touch.

When in party combat, however, top-down is the only way to go ;).

#16 Archmage Silver

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Posted 23 December 2004 - 11:07 AM

When in party combat, however, top-down is the only way to go wink.gif.

True, I tried once to use chase camera mode in battle, but that was it.

#17 Vita Muerte

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Posted 24 July 2005 - 06:28 PM

Dragon Age will have real-time, party-based combat. The player explores the world with an over-the-shoulder camera view as seen in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, but when combat begins, the camera can be switched to a top-down tactical view similar to that in Baldur's Gate. Combat will be in real time but will allow the player to pause the action ('pause and play') and assign commands to his party members.

:( I was hoping BioWare would keep the BG top-down camara angle altogether. I get terrible motion sickness if the camera control is not stable. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to get used to it. :rolleyes:

#18 Delight

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 03:42 AM

BG1: Area style
Planescape: Torment: Party interaction and interaction with NPCs
...

#19 -Quiet Lurker-

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 08:38 PM

Dragon Age will have real-time, party-based combat. The player explores the world with an over-the-shoulder camera view as seen in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, but when combat begins, the camera can be switched to a top-down tactical view similar to that in Baldur's Gate. Combat will be in real time but will allow the player to pause the action ('pause and play') and assign commands to his party members.

:( I was hoping BioWare would keep the BG top-down camara angle altogether. I get terrible motion sickness if the camera control is not stable. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to get used to it. :rolleyes:

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Heh, just the motion-sickness caused by camera movement during change to combat mode should be enough to deter any chaotic evil players from slaughtering random civilians.

Very devious of Bioware, very devious indeed. :devil:

#20 Vita Muerte

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Posted 25 July 2005 - 10:06 PM

Dragon Age will have real-time, party-based combat. The player explores the world with an over-the-shoulder camera view as seen in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, but when combat begins, the camera can be switched to a top-down tactical view similar to that in Baldur's Gate. Combat will be in real time but will allow the player to pause the action ('pause and play') and assign commands to his party members.

:( I was hoping BioWare would keep the BG top-down camara angle altogether. I get terrible motion sickness if the camera control is not stable. Oh well, I guess I'll just have to get used to it. :rolleyes:

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Heh, just the motion-sickness caused by camera movement during change to combat mode should be enough to deter any chaotic evil players from slaughtering random civilians.

Very devious of Bioware, very devious indeed. :devil:

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Ack, they're only almost succeeding in deterring me from buying DA. But then again, I admit I'm biased; I'm one of those who favor the old school IE over the newer ones. I doubt BioWare would want to receive any flak from critics and most gamers for using an obsolete engine instead of using flashier, state of the art graphics. -_-

I rarely play CE characters- and no, I don't play goody two shoes either. (Not very often, anyway.) :naughty: