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PST for a female Nameless One


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#41 -Guest-

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:55 AM

First off, I'm sure you've heard of how bad the marketing was for PS:T, right...?

For the casual store browser like I am, a box with a big wrinkly face on it and with the words "You have a raw animal magnetism that drives women wild" on the back isn't exactly going to get on a must buy list.

Yet, I did end up trying out the game when others claimed it was good, so before you accuse anyone of being superficial and shallow, you should put more thought into your rantings.

Somewhere along the way you managed to forget I am straightish female. I had no idea that Yuna was showing her butt on the FFX-2 cover, but hey... since you obviously took a good look what does that make you?

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It makes me an average consumer. One of my female friends was put off by the front cover of Sudeki, and that was tame in comparison with FFX-2's cover. While games continue to be developed with teenage boys/men in mind, a large majority of women won't feel welcome at all. But now I'm contradicting myself because as long as third party developers et al continue to view the female (console game) market as too negligable to be worth their time, nothing will change.

If most women are "straightish" like you claim to be, the mere sight of games that predominently cater to male tastes won't be enough to drive you away when they are shoved in your face. Did you know that when it was implied that Raiden in Metal Gear Solid 2 might be a repressed homosexual, male players went absolutely berserk? I wonder when we will see anyone like him again?

The failure of PS: T to take off is, in actual fact, the symptom of a far deeper problem. What RPG introduced you to the genre? For most so-called modern-day RPG fans that RPG would have been Final Fantasy 7 even though RPGs far more worthy of anyone's time were available at the time of its release.

PS: T simply didn't meet the requirements set out by the casual gamers who have taken over the games industry. Beyond Good & Evil also flopped despite being one of the best Action/Adventure games in recent years starring none other than a female lead character.

As a hardcore Sega fan myself, I've watched the games industry change over the years, and I' almost sad to say that I hate the direction it is now going in. Ever wondered why the God-awful Final Fantasy games have become so popular? They are interactive soap operas which cater to the casual gamer's every whim. That's why.

Baldur's Gate succeeded where Planescape: Torment failed simply because Baldur's Gate balanced huge amounts of easily accessible combat with limited branching dialogue where PS: T did the complete opposite. Casual gamers generally don't have the patience to read through one branch of dialogue after another; they'd rather be hacking and slashing their way through one horde of fanged creatures drooling with venom after another instead. Even if Interplay advertised the hell out of PS: T (like Ubi Soft did with BG&E) it would have flopped anyway. We may never see anything like it again because games publishers aren't in the business of making games that don't sell. Even if PS: T sold well, there's a much larger market for Diablo-clones like Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance.

You could argue that making the Nameless One a female in the beginning would have drawn more attention to the game, but men generally don't want to role play females characters (with very few exceptions like FFX-2 where the female lead characters are barely dressed porn stars), which is why the main characters in most Japanese RPGs are almost always male.

PS:T was written for a male Nameless One. But that doesn't mean that the immortal can't be a female...

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As you are no doubt already aware, aside from obvious physical differences, men and women think differently. For example, men tend to be innately aggressive which gives them all the incentive they need to wage war on each other, while women tend to be innately compassionate. I can see a woman doing everything the Nameless One did, but it simply wouldn't be the same.

Could you see Tyler Durden as a woman? Would a female Fight Club be believable?

In the game world itself, I didn't see the streets littered with male prostitutes, did you?

As far as I'm concerned, the now defunct Black Isle Studios shouldn't have to make apologies for not giving players the option to play as a female character.

One final point: Longius please MODIFY your language. Calling people shallow on a public forum, with no real knowledge of them, or a true understanding of their opinions, is not only wrong, but disgraceful. Please add a little RESPECT to your language, because even if you aren't offending others, you are offending me. It doesn't take much. Your views are as valid as anyone else's, and posting them is fine, but don't drag the character of those who you disagree with into the debate, please.

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My choice of words is actually rather subdued when compared to the violent language some posters have unleashed on others here in the past.

Personally, I feel that the Infinity Engine modding community has always been way too liberal for its own good. The people here take pride in it being a diverse community, but truth be told, you have to lean quite far to the left of the political spectrum to tolerate the vast majority of ideas that are conceived in this place.

Yes, let's make the Nameless One a woman, and make all of his female traveling companions bisexual! Jesus, what's the point? I can understand not wanting to role play a male character, but not all female players will want to role play a gay/bisexual female character either.

#42 Longinus

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:57 AM

Oops, the above post is mine, but I posted it when I wasn't logged in. :(
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#43 -Ashara-

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 11:45 AM

You know, I started replying, explaining why I wanted to do it and how it was not intended as offence to anyone sort of thing, and then it suddenly donned at me: I do not have to and I already did. I can simply do as I please, and what my writting ability, technical sophisitication and time allow. And the very last thing I want to spend all three of these very valuable to me things on - is on arguing about other people's moral stands on homosexuality.

Edited by Ashara, 24 February 2005 - 11:49 AM.


#44 Longinus

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 12:39 PM

You know, I started replying, explaining why I wanted to do it and how it was not intended as offence to anyone sort of thing, and then it suddenly donned at me: I do not have to and I already did. I can simply do as I please, and what my writting ability, technical sophisitication and time allow. And the very last thing I want to spend all three of these very valuable to me things on - is on arguing about other people's moral stands on homosexuality.

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So, would a female Tyler Durden be just as believable?

I couldn't empathize with Jade in Beyond Good & Evil, but I enjoyed the game for what it was nonetheless. How is Torment any different? You may not be able to relate to the main character, but that doesn't mean you still can't enjoy the ride.

How did you manage to endure playing as Tidus in Final Fantasy X, or do you avoid most Japanese RPGs whose main characters are male as well? Other than being given a voice with which you can steer the course of the story, again I ask, how is Torment any different?

I'd rather create my own character in an RPG setting instead of playing the role of someone else, but most gamers feel differently. Would female gamers like to play more games with female lead characters who aren't intended to be eye-candy for sex-starved male gamers? Of course. Will we ever see that day? Unless more women stop obsessing over their appearances and start playing more games, the answer is no.

Edited by Longinus, 24 February 2005 - 12:47 PM.

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#45 -The Real Slim Ding0-

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 01:58 PM

Personally, I feel that the Infinity Engine modding community has always been way too liberal for its own good. The people here take pride in it being a diverse community, but truth be told, you have to lean quite far to the left of the political spectrum to tolerate the vast majority of ideas that are conceived in this place.

What Longinus means here is that he hates fags.

#46 -Ashara-

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 02:24 PM

You may not be able to relate to the main character, but that doesn't mean you still can't enjoy the ride.


You presume too much. Now, if you are done with venting your frustration with modders and female players who dare to do play/mod the way it suits them, and have nothing better than a snide 'let us do all characters lesbian' to contribute, please, move along.

Edited by Ashara, 24 February 2005 - 02:26 PM.


#47 Child

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 03:29 AM

Just leave off her Longinus. In some ways i agree withyou..in that i think its a bit of a waste of time, simply because the effort needed doesn't really seem to tally with the result. But thats only my view, and its ashara thats making the mod, so it doesnt affect me. And tbh id be interested to see it work. Because if that works, then the possible expansion of the idea is brilliant. :)

The fact is that you aren't gonna change her views, and honsetly why would you want to? You can't make the world believe all your own views. I think, apart from anything, the sheer challenge of this makes it worth it. Modding to change chars around, and change big bits of dialogue....its crazy but if she can pull it off, i would d/load the mod, despite having no real desire to play as a female Nameless One, just to see the work she put in.

Besides, if you dont like the idea, don't download it. Its very simple. No-one if forcing you to take part.
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#48 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 04:00 AM

The fact is that you aren't gonna change her views

Her views cannot be changed - ever. :)
This is not a problem of course, at least not for me - I have my very own clashes and conflicts because of my attitude when it comes to arguments, so in part I can agree with both sides:

I agree with Longinus, as I stated long before: this mod (and even the idea of it) sounds quite offending to me.
And I agree with domi (or Ashara.. :rolleyes: ) about her Iron Will...

PS.: oh my, this whole pointless argument reminds me on how I laughed at Charlie's Angels and it's whole concept... :mellow:
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#49 Child

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 06:00 AM

[quote name='T.G.Maestro' date='Feb 25 2005, 11:50 AM']
[quote]
PS.: oh my, this whole pointless argument reminds me on how I laughed at Charlie's Angels and it's whole concept... :mellow:
[right]View Post[/right]
[/quote]

LOL....which bit of the argument is pointless tho? The whether this is offensive/unoffensive, the whether her views can be changed argument, or the whether Longinus is being offensive, or the whether the mod should be made? LOL...

:D

Um...also....i think i ought to change what i said slightly...U MIGHT change her views (i dont know her so maybe its possbile :P ) BUT its unlikely, andyou're far more likely to cause offense than anything...so surely it simply isnt worth it... LOL...T.G.M has the right idea :) :mellow: (mellow :P )
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Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya

#50 Suluku

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 01:35 PM

Having recently finished the game I think that reworking the game with female Nameless One could be feasible with the aid of a little imagination. In the original game we know that TNO undergoes several reincarnations in the same old battered and scarred body, but we also know that the body itself regenerates to some extent because we find a severed arm from a previous incarnation at one point and meet other incarnations at the end of the game. So there is scope for the idea that some incarnations of TNO are female, if not necessarily all.

Furthermore, a female TNO might have other strategies for self-discovery than wandering around in a loincloth. Several characters in the game are not what they appear to be - for example, the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts has one apprentice who is an automaton and other who seems to be a medusa in disguise. A female TNO might want to use her brains rather than brawn and so take on any number of disguises, whether by means of a spell or some kind of armature. So you could have plenty of scope for chosing an animated figure. I would not use FFG, because the relationship between a female TNO and FFG would be interesting to explore, epecially as the original game reveals the TNO/FFG relationship in nothing better than hints yet suggests there is more at work in it than mere romance (there is in fact no romance to speak of).

You would definitely have to replace Annah with a male character, unless you change her love for TNO into some kind of mother/daughter/sister/Imoen thing (which is still a change of nature for a snarling and cynical street urchin). You could also have fun with Morte, who could be re-cast as a former lover/betrayer no longer useful for anything much except talking. Ravel could stay the same because it could be said she fell in love with one of the male incarnations of TNO. Same with Deonarra.

Anyway, good luck with the project. I know little of coding but I think the challenge is as much a matter of reworking the story so all the parts fit anew as in technical issues. With that in mind, it might be a good idea if you played the original game through at least once, or got hold of a good walkthrough. :)

#51 SimDing0

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 01:43 PM

Having recently finished the game I think that reworking the game with female Nameless One could be feasible with the aid of a little imagination. In the original game we know that TNO undergoes several reincarnations in the same old battered and scarred body, but we also know that the body itself regenerates to some extent because we find a severed arm from a previous incarnation at one point and meet other incarnations at the end of the game. So there is scope for the idea that some incarnations of TNO are female, if not necessarily all.

I don't think that really works as an explanation. He's still the same person, regardless of his immortality or amnesia, so he's no more likely to wake up as a female than he is an abishai or cranium rat. It makes better sense if you just say "right, TNO has always been female now".

Edited by SimDing0, 25 February 2005 - 01:44 PM.

Repeating cycle of pubes / no pubes.

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#52 -Ashara-

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 02:08 PM

Yes, it is the Nameless always been a woman in my version and Deonarr is a male. I have to warn immediately that I will not be revising anything in the game, but line-by-line text editing adapting the dialogues for a female PC - as far as I know Torment will not take free-style editing that BG1/2 will. It will be the same game, only the protagonist will be a female. The same applies to the body swap - the animations will have to be swapped for protagonist with the mainchar.

I was thinking female friendship for Annah, which people can interpret as a romance if they so wish; I see no problems with Ravel being in love with a FNO and FNO using her feelings and pride just the same way the male one did, with a little bit more rivalry perhaps added to the mix. My take on FFG will surprise pretty much everyone, I fear, so I'd keep my lips sealed till I am actually working on it, free of my other obligations. :)

Posted Image

I have a walk through that I read, plus I was going to go sector by sector after readapting the main NPC dialogue sets to find the CRE's that need their dialogues rewriten and see anything that does not make sense. That's all.

#53 Aion

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 02:23 PM

Nice screenshot. It's a start, it's a start. I completely support this idea. ^_^

#54 Erephine

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 02:52 PM

Two things:

1st: PST dialog style. "Spoken text goes here" <---

2nd: Morte knows TNO for a long, long time.

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#55 -Ashara-

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 03:16 PM

It was my first not entirely serious edit and yes, quotes shalt be inserted everywhere once I am at it :)

#56 Barren Fischa

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 09:55 PM

What animation will you be using for Deonarr? There's no other ghostly BAM, AFAIK...

(Ashara is Domi? Wow, now I really feel like I've been out of the loop! :lol:)
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#57 Child

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 12:30 AM

It was my first not entirely serious edit and yes, quotes shalt be inserted everywhere once I am at it :)

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LOL...looks cool so far :D
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Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya

#58 Child

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 03:39 AM

Actually. Do u want/need any help :P This looks like it might be entertaining, and i cant pretend i havent got loads of free time :D
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#59 -Ashara-

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 07:47 AM

There was an animation of a 'male ghost' in the game, but I did not like it; So it will be just a hooded cloaked figure - a dustman's animation, unless i run into a better one. Not as ghostly as Deonarra, but on the good side much less ugly :).

Child, this is the question I dreaded - for I am working on BG1NPC atm. But if you think you are interested in rewriting say Annah's file for female friendship, and do not mind the possibility that I would never get to it after all, we can chat about it over PM. :)

#60 Child

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Posted 26 February 2005 - 11:26 AM

Child, this is the question I dreaded - for I am working on BG1NPC atm. But if you think you are interested in rewriting say Annah's file for female friendship, and do not mind the possibility that I would never get to it after all, we can chat about it over PM. :)

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Dreaded why? Becoz lazy and not actually working on it? :P ;) LOL its spawning enough debate to continue to be entertaining even so :P Sounds cool :D

LOL...hmm..oh come on...BG1 vs PS:T....T wins hands down :P
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Dovienya se sagain tovya

Sene sovya caba'donde ain dovienya