41 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

Some recent news say that Bioware consider adding more visual content to the romances (hugs and kisses). I remember this problem was adressed once about BG2, whose romances were considered by some to dry. In fact, they ressembled with some therapy sessions until near the end. Such things would make the romance more interactive and Jade Empire proved it can be done. Of course there is the problem of the animations : if one of the partners has a spikey armor a la Thibbledorf Pwent or are wearing helmets, there will be some problems. The main point of such an addition would be not to make the party member appear like static droids.

[Archmage Silver]

Sounds kool, if they actually do that I won't mind some clipping issues.

[Alandrea]

So in this one will actually have the option to say, for example: "Wow Anomen, I don't care!" and be able to salvage the romance? That sounds wonderful.

Of course, the kissing animations could present a bit of humour. I'd love to see a visor slipping down during a kiss. And any attempt to hug someone with spiked armor could get quite interesting, imagine taking damage every time you showed your S.O. physical affection. Fun.

[Feanor]

Of course, the kissing animations could present a bit of humour.  I'd love to see a visor slipping down during a kiss.

That would kill the romance.

[Vita Muerte]

I wouldn't put so much emphasis on the kissing animations. I am more interested in seeing the story development. If having such animations means that the game is going months, let alone take 2+ yrs, I'd rather use my imagination just as I did when playing the old IE games.

After all that's what a few movie genres are for.

[Feanor]

I just lifted this from David Gaider. Since most of the mods for BG2 consist of romances, I bet you would be interested :

Okay, after listening to some opinions, let me express a few of my own in regards to what has gone right or wrong with past romance stories and what my thoughts are for DA.

For starters, I really don't think the issue is needing more time for the romance to evolve over. If we were talking about a committed relationship, then it would be more of an issue, perhaps... really I think it's having the player "buy into" the romance. There are 2-hour movies, after all, that can present very believable romances, aren't there?

I think part of the problem with recent shorter games is that we've been too quick to jump the gun and get right to the "I love you" stage. The person is talking to you, telling you about their life and then BAM! Suddenly they're expressing their love for you, and you're left wondering when THAT occurred. That doesn't mean we have to stop at flirtation and never explore anything deeper, but it should require some work on the part of the player... the NPC shouldn't suddenly love you by default, there should be a reason for it if it goes that far.

We've probably also relied too much on having the NPC initiate everything. I remember we went away from that in HotU and went half-half... half the dialogues were initiated, half required the player to initiate them, and that worked better (the problems there were more the above BAM! factor, I think). I think it's likely we'll go further in that direction... at the very least I think it should require the initiation of the player to express their interest or indicate that a romance might be possible to get the ball rolling. People don't put their hearts on their sleeve without knowing that there's at least some chance of reciprocation.

As well, instead of timing the progress of the romance according to level-ups, we tie it to things that the player can initiate. Asking them questions, giving them gifts, solving their personal quests, performing actions that are compatible with their personality and motivations... these are the things that should warm them up to you and progress the romance (who didn't feel as if they'd earned the love of their party member in BG2 when they saved them from vampirism?) It shouldn't just require time and the patience to listen to them talk; there should be the chance for failure.

Finally, as was mentioned in a post above, there will be a difference between romance and comraderie. Carth and Bastila didn't have non-romantic dialogue, and this made it nearly impossible for members of the same sex to have any sense of comraderie with them. Both of them were important characters, yet the opportunity to provide them as potential close friends... a bond that can be just as strong as any romance... was lost. I would love to explore writing a male character who can become a male player's brother-in-arms and be right there and be cool. I also think that it's a good idea if such characters didn't have just the romance or nothing... either you romance them or there's nothing to talk about (or they're mad at you). What about the woman who would have been just fine with having Carth as a friend? What about the possibility of letting them down easy? Maybe the player's not really interested in moving beyond the flirtation stage, and it doesn't need to come to a head. It's worth exploring, anyway.

Whether all these things will make it into DA, I'm not really sure. But these are some of the things I've learned from all the previous whacks at the ball, and I'm eager to apply it here once again... and while BG2 had the luxury of time to use to get the players to buy into a romance, I don't think that's the only reason they worked nor an absolute requirement.

I think David Gaider hit the ball here.

[Tom]

You said it.

I think part of the problem with recent shorter games is that we've been too quick to jump the gun and get right to the "I love you" stage. The person is talking to you, telling you about their life and then BAM! Suddenly they're expressing their love for you, and you're left wondering when THAT occurred.

I think this is the main problem, in my opinion at least, with the romances since BG2, and it stems from as he said the timespan of the games. Unfortunately is leaves you with a romance which consists of the NPC talking at you about their life story and then saying they love you...

Its good to know that they have learnt from all the past games, and his description of what he wants sounds excellent, but as he said, whether or not it will be in DA is another thing. And how it will be implemented too...

[femalepaladin]

Does anyone know how restricted the romances will be? I mean male/female only or will it depend on your character?

[Feanor]

Does anyone know how restricted the romances will be? I mean male/female only or will it depend on your character?

Do you mean same sex romances ? If yes, the Bioware staff was ambiguous on this matter (you can easily guess why - there where around 4-5 topics about homosexuality in DA who end up locked because of the flame wars ensued), but I think there are not high chances for this. If it will be such a romance, then definitely it would be player-initiated.

[Kulyok]

Some more information about romances:
( http://forums.biowar...forum=84&sp=120 )

By David Gaider:

If you and a party member hit it off well enough (meaning that your interactions have been positive ones and that your actions have been ones that the party member approves of), your relationship will proceed to the point where there's friendly banter and then a bit of flirting. This is the party member indicating to you that they're interested, but they won't proceed past this point without some reciprocation from you.

If you're playing it shy and never give them any indication of how you feel, then yes... that means the romance will never get off the ground. As it should be. And you can also shut down any notion of attraction, gently or not. There is a "comrade" path which you can switch back to if you're nice.

Should you, however, give some reciprocation (this is the "initiation" that was mentioned) that you're interested in them, that's the go-ahead for the romance path to begin. This is still largely player-driven... the party member is not going to fall in love with you just because you let them talk to you, you have to actively pursue it.

Edited by Kulyok, 29 November 2005 - 09:38 AM.

[Kulyok]

I hope that not all romances will go like that. It reads like a shot in the other direction: Why should now the NPC only be brought to love by the PC. It sounds like there won't be any flirting or somesuch from the NPC to the PC any longer. I want to be romanced and addorred, and not have to fight for evey glimps of affection.

I think so, too. Going to the extremes never ends well.

I am trying for middle ground, myself: I think that having a large amount of PC-initiated conversations and having *some* steps initiated by PC, and PC only does not hurt.

If PC has an opportunity of being forward/to ask for support/to tease/to try to change their relationship - that's also great. (And that's what I am trying to provide in the moment, btw.)

But having PC initiating *everything* in every single romance, be it male or female, denying female PC the opportunity of surprise, of being showered with affection, the opportunity to be passive and to let her lover be dominating in *every* romance - it's no-go with me.

[Shed]

David Gaider never said romances would be entirely player-driven. I doubt the Bioware team is going to do the exact opposite of everything they've previously done, either.

[Archmage Silver]

David Gaider never said romances would be entirely player-driven. I doubt the Bioware team is going to do the exact opposite of everything they've previously done, either.

Yep, I agree. BioWare has done some good romance tracks before, and I too doubt they would change the pattern, not extremely much anyway.

[Kulyok]

No, it's one little thing in the script they're changing, I think: after a certain lovetalk the romantic sequence shuts down and will continue only after PC's encouragement. I am not happy with this little thing at all. Shy girls do get romances in real life, contrary to what David Gaider says, and I do not see a reason to deprive them of the same thing in Dragon Age.

[Shed]

Maybe there will be (non?) dialogue options for shy girls too .

[Kulyok]

*Breaks out laughing*

Man, you are reading my thoughts! Yeah, some of these... er, options will definitely work for me. (But that may increase the game's rating a great deal, mind you.)


Though there're also characters (some of which I play) who wouldn't use either dialogue or non-dialogue options. That might be a problem. Well, perhaps Bioware will make at least one character who will pursue PC no matter what? One can only hope...

[Archmage Silver]

I just hope they don't go all elven this time - all BG original romances for male PCs were with elves (except Jaheira, Half-Elf... yeah, not too different either). But I wouldn't want female players to have to stick with some pompous knight we all know *cough ano cough*.

Edited by Archmage Silver, 30 November 2005 - 08:29 AM.

[Delight]

So, every romancable NPC will be passive?
That sucks.