9 replies to this topic

[aigleborgne]

Hello,

I have started my first BG project : a modified shapeshifter kit.
The original one is too weak. Ease2use one is vastly overpowered. I like Refinement Shapefix but again, I have another point of view.

First, my kit is designed for the protagonist. Druid's werewolf form become stronger as he gains experience.
He is designed to become a werewolf deity at 8 million xp. Natural Lycanthropy and divine blood is the explanation of such power. I'm aware it will be *very* powerful, but so is a sorcerer!

Advantages:
- Werewolf form progress with levels (new form at level 1, 7, 11, 13, 14, 15, 22, 27, 31)
- He can change form at will, but transformation takes 2 rounds

Drawbacks:
- No HLA abilities
- Cannot wear any armor, no helmets, no proeficiencies

My main concern is game balance in hardcore mode with these mods:
- ascension
- longer road
- tactics
- solaufein

Also, I want it to be balanced in BG1tutu (in fact, I will play it through all the trilogy)

Current table:

Name Lvl STR DEX CON hp/rnd AC Thac0 Atk Enc Mvt MagicR EleR MagicDR MissileR ClawDmg WeaponImmune Immunities (cumulatives)
Baby Werewolf 1 18/51 15 20 1 2 15 1 1 1 10 0 0 0 1D4 None Slow, Haste
Young Werewolf 7 19 16 21 3 1 12 1.5 1 2 20 0 0 0 1D6 None Fatigue, Disease
Werewolf 11 20 18 22 6 0 9 2 2 3 30 30 0 10 1D8 Non-Magical Sleep, Panic
Adult Werewolf 13 21 20 23 18 -1 6 2.5 2 4 40 50 0 20 1D10 Non-Magical Web, Entangle
Venerable Were. 14 22 21 24 18 -2 3 3 3 5 40 50 10 30 1D12 Non-Magical Mind(confusion,feeble,charm)
Ancient Were. 15 23 22 25 24 -3 0 3.5 3 6 40 50 20 30 2D6 Non-Magical Hold(type), Stun
22 24 23 25 24 -4 -1 4 4 7 50 50 30 40 2D8 +1 Backstab, Petrification
27 24 24 25 30 -5 -3 4.5 4 8 50 50 40 40 1D20 +2 Level drain, Maze
Werewolf Deity 31 25 25 25 36 -6 -5 5 5 9 50 50 50 50 2D10 +3 Wing buffet, Imprisonement

Major problem : dispel on weapon
Solution 1 : immunity to dispel on all forms
Solution 2 : the one used in Refinements

Solution 2 isn't perfect, and need a lot of files (because I will use many different claws)
Solution 1 is good but can be overpowered. My idea is to dispel all buff when morphing to werewolf, so nothing to dispel, it only prevents claws' dispelling. It can also be a good way to balance higher forms of werewolf.

I don't allow proef., the druid can't learn weapons and develop his lycanthropy form. Also, I don't want to "cheat" with single weapon proef. and gain +1 AC, critical on 19-20 when being a werewolf.


I need advices and suggestions about this, before starting to program that.


Sorry for language, i'm french

Edited by aigleborgne, 20 February 2005 - 12:49 PM.

[Child]

no idea about balance with other mods, but doesnt it get very strong quickly? And im sure that ending up with nearly all stats at 25 is a bit silly :S i suppose it is a deity, but surely thats a bit ott?

Also...imprisonment? come on! and wingbuffert? on a werewolf... *doesnt see ne wings*

[Andyr]

I like the idea of changes at will. But I don't know how I feel about the 'no weapon proficiency' idea. Perhaps you could just give them a slower thac0 progression (e.g. the Wizard one) when not in Werewolf form.

Is spellcasting allowed when form is shifted?

Perhaps it could be disabled at low levels but at higher ones (8 or 10 or so) the character could learn to cast while shapeshifted.

[aigleborgne]

Definitly no casting in werewolf form! It would be totally overpowered

About all immunities, they are due to the divine blood and partially to the werewolf form.

I assume that a strong werewolf can't be stop by some web or entangle.
For some immunities, I can find a good reason. After all, a greater werewolf is a beast!

For some like Imprisonement, Wing Buffer... it's due to very high level (so strongest form) and divine blood.

But even then, look at the ravager, he's still be the best melee form! (better thaco, AC, resistances, immunity to death spell also)

I'm looking about saving throw also, maybe do something to prevent easy disintegrate or death spell on higher werewolf.

Concerning proef, no i will see. It might be too difficult to prevent them anyway

[Child]

I can understand why u put wing buffet in but im sure cyric doesnt have it...
Anyway..whatever...I still think that making this thing is just giving u a beast fighter with massive stats, and as u can cahnge at will, u effectively dont need to use the druid class levels at all... :S ITs like changing a druid into a brilliant fighter, but keeping the spells for buffing b4 hand... :S A bit dodgy me thinks....er....But whatever..its a cool idea, dont get me wrong I like it, but i think u need to scale down the power quite a bit :S

[aigleborgne]

Yes, I agree with you.
I need to find suggestions for balancing all this.

I was thinking of:
- Werewolf Bloodrage : become uncontrollable sometimes (as a ravager). But I don't know how to do it properly, because ravager berserk is coded every x seconds.
- Same immunities, but less power (lower str dex, lower regen, ...)

If you have suggestions, post them please

I can understand why u put wing buffet in but im sure cyric doesnt have it...
Anyway..whatever...I still think that making this thing is just giving u a beast fighter with massive stats, and as u can cahnge at will, u effectively dont need to use the druid class levels at all... :S ITs like changing a druid into a brilliant fighter, but keeping the spells for buffing b4 hand... :S A bit dodgy me thinks....er....But whatever..its a cool idea, dont get me wrong I like it, but i think u need to scale down the power quite a bit :S

[Child]

Ok....i like the whole transformation time thing..thats cool. It erases some (but not all of the buff problems). Perhaps you could do a dispel magic on the PC when he shifts? Esp. if u gte some beardy g!t who has dual-classed to a mage or something. Can u imagine that thing stoneskinned? Urgh :S

I would cut down on the bonuses to abilities.... ginving natural 25s in all seems excessive.....and 25 for constituion with 36 hp/round regen is a joke. That woul take hours to kill :S

I misread the wing buffet thing..i thought it was an ability u wee giving, rather than an immunity, so it seems fair enough as an immunity. Maybe get rid of backstab immunity? Or at least reduce it to only obtaining at werewolf deity form...if ure trying to balance it, its gotta be vaguely defeatable by other classes, and otherwise i cant see how any rogue stands a chance...they will get torn apart in close-combat.

How about also adversly affecting the number of druid spells obtained, or limiting the druid spells to hostile? Or limiting druid spells to natural ones....like summon nature's ally, tangle, etc, but cutting things like flame sword, etc?


Im unsure what you are doing about the werewolf weapons....but if ure worried about dispel killing th epowers then make an item that looks like a claw, have it unmovable whilst in werewolf form, and give it powers. Though that would be fun to code :S Dunno how good u r with coding, but me thinks that would be complicated :S

Er......is anybody else gonna helpt his guy with suggestions, or am i doing it all by myself :S

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Well, it's nice idea. I wish you good riddance and good luck . I'll be brief: I propose you to mix up the ideas of the Refiniments and the upgrade of the Werewolf. So, the Shapeshifter will have to choose to Shapeshift in a different animal or form and then he'll upgrade slowly in levels. He'll be able to shapeshift on other creatures like many different animals and elementals. Why can't he be giant hulking Werebear or merciless assassin Wererat. If you are up to the work - I wish you good luck...

Yet I also propose you lower a bit these upgrades and make them between every 6 levels.

Something like that:
Young Werewolf 7 | 19 16 21 3 1 12 1.5 1 2 20 0 0 0 1D6 None Fatigue, Disease
Adult Werewolf 13 | 21 20 23 18 -1 6 2.5 2 4 40 50 0 20 1D10 Non-Magical Web, Entangle
Ancient Were. 19 | 23 22 25 24 -3 0 3.5 3 6 40 50 20 30 2D6 Non-Magical Hold(type), Stun
25 | 24 23 25 24 -4 -1 4 4 7 50 50 30 40 2D8 +1 Backstab, Level drain,
Werewolf Deity 31 | 25 25 25 36 -6 -5 5 5 9 50 50 50 50 2D10 +3 Wing buffet, Imprisonement

Edited by Elan Morin Tedronai, 24 February 2005 - 11:24 AM.

[aigleborgne]

Current table:

Name Lvl STR DEX CON hp/rnd AC Thac0 Atk Enc Mvt MagicR EleR MagicDR MissileR ClawDmg WeaponImmune Immunities (cumulatives)
Baby Werewolf 1 18 15 20 1 3 17 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1D3 None Dispel, Slow, Haste
Young Werewolf 7 18/51 16 21 3 2 14 1.5 1 1 0 10 0 0 1D4 None Fatigue, Disease
Werewolf 10 18/00 17 22 6 1 11 2 1 2 10 10 0 0 1D6 None Sleep, Panic
Greater Were. 11 19 18 22 6 0 8 2.5 2 3 10 20 0 0 1D8 Non-Magical Web, Entangle
Adult Werewolf 13 20 19 23 18 -1 6 3 2 4 20 20 0 0 1D10 Non-Magical Mind(confusion,feeble,charm)
Venerable Were. 14 21 20 23 18 -2 4 3.5 3 5 20 30 10 10 1D12 Non-Magical Hold(type), Stun
Ancient Were. 15 21 20 24 24 -3 2 4 3 6 30 30 20 20 2D6 Non-Magical Backstab, Petrification
22 22 21 24 24 -4 0 4 4 7 30 40 30 30 2D8 +1 Death spells
27 22 21 24 24 -5 -2 4.5 4 8 40 40 40 40 1D20 +2 Level drain, Maze
Werewolf Deity 31 23 22 25 30 -6 -4 5 5 9 40 50 50 50 2D10 +3 Wing buffet, Imprisonement


Morphing into a werewolf dispel every spells affecting the druid.
By its nature, a werewolf is immune to dispel magic and can not be hasted.

A werewolf is a very fast monster, high agility, danger sense (remember wolverine?). Because of that, it can't be surprised, and so backstab.
High constitution makes it immune to spells like fatigue, disease, sleep.
With such speed, weight, and high agility, It can't be caught by web, entangle, or be slowed.
Its animal spirit, animated by a feral rage, makes it immune to mind spells (panic, confusion, ...)

Divine blood adds up for the other immunities : hold, stun, death spells, level drain, maze, wing buffet, imprisonement.
We have seen what a vampiric werewolf can do in a movie (underwold). So I have imagined the result of divine blood+lycantropy = werewolf half-god or deity.

I need to add some major drawbacks without toning down the raw power of these forms.

My suggestions:
- Severe limitations of druids spells, maybe no spells at all
- Can't wear any armor and any weapons
- Rage under werewolf (as slayer form, but without damage)

Maybe it shouldn't be a druid kit, more an evil-fighter kit?
Well, I don't know... need to find some ideas

[Child]

My suggestions:
- Severe limitations of druids spells, maybe no spells at all
- Can't wear any armor and any weapons
- Rage under werewolf (as slayer form, but without damage)

Maybe it shouldn't be a druid kit, more an evil-fighter kit?
Well, I don't know... need to find some ideas

Maybe only offensive druid spells? Which would make it practically useless.....coz then ud have to be druid form to cast them....
Hmm...make armour available as a druid, but limit weapons.
Hmm...the rage is agood idea....beserk would work 2 i think...

Def a druid kit....wouldnt make sense as a fighter really....altohugh u might get away with it....