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After the End Fooling around


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#41 Rabain

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Posted 11 August 2005 - 11:09 AM

What about a different start area for different races: dwarves start in an underground dwarven complex, elves in a forest city, halflings in a halfling village (a la Gullykin), Hlaf-orc's in an Orc tribe-tent-town-type-thing etc The area's could still be used later in the game if not used as start area's.

Might as well think big if you are talking TC!
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#42 -Ashara-

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Posted 11 August 2005 - 12:19 PM

Might as well think big if you are talking TC!


I think it's the 'thinking big' rather than remaining realistic that kills TCs. Furnishing one path with areas, creatures and quests is already more than a modding team can handle up to date; it can be tried though. Handling six is definetly in the realm of fantasies.

#43 jester

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:02 AM

Nevertheless to see at least some variations would be nice. ToEE tried that a bit at least IIRC.
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#44 Rabain

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 04:39 AM

It might be possible to use the same start area's for humans, elves and half-elves. Is it possible to simply change all the animations of creatures to elves or human in the village as necessary on creation?

Or even just to have 2 or 3 random start area's so that replay is not monotonous.
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#45 -Ashara-

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 06:43 AM

And tripple the workload? An area is not just a backdrop. It hosts non-joinable NPCs and quests. And lumping the elves with the humans, while doing something gnome-specific, you'd get an outcry from anyone like me who is an elf-fan: 'where is my tree-city'?!

Note, that the mighty company BioWARE with a dozen + of artists and writers on staff had only decided to do different starting locations and mingling story lines depending on PC's background on its what? Fourth major game?

Edited by Ashara, 12 August 2005 - 06:44 AM.


#46 Adder

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 08:41 AM

And, of course, there is also an obvious approach: a group of young and eager adventurers is going to research the paths of the Bhaalspawn wars.


Is there a chance for them to meet some of the original NPCs? Because IMO it would be fun to meet the old crew and listen to their versions of the events  ^_^
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#47 Rabain

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 10:10 AM

Note, that the mighty company BioWARE with a dozen + of artists and writers on staff had only decided to do different starting locations and mingling story lines depending on PC's background on its what? Fourth major game?

Bioware had a schedule , with deadlines they had to meet and a budget most likely too. None of which apply to any mod. That alone is not a good enough reason to not have different start areas.

And tripple the workload? An area is not just a backdrop. It hosts non-joinable NPCs and quests. And lumping the elves with the humans, while doing something gnome-specific, you'd get an outcry from anyone like me who is an elf-fan: 'where is my tree-city'?!

It would involve some work yes but take a look at Candlekeep, Easthaven, the Morgue (PST), all of which are small enough area's with what (?) four or five quests to get the player used to how to play? You won't have that problem with After the End anyway as anyone installing it would most likely have played through BG2. It would be something that would at least make the mod different to others and let the player feel as though his choice of race has some effect in game.

The only really good reasons for not including something are either (A) the mod maker doesn't like it and doesn't want to include it or (B) it is simply not possible to do.
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#48 Delight

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 11:08 AM

How about continuing the game from the point it ended?
...

#49 Rabain

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 12:20 PM

How about continuing the game from the point it ended?

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This is exactly what is being discussed here. You do have choices at the end of the game that make it end differently. Depending on those choices you would have a different continuation from that point, you have played BG2 to the end right?
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#50 -Ashara-

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 02:36 PM

Bioware had a schedule , with deadlines they had to meet and a budget most likely too. None of which apply to any mod. That alone is not a good enough reason to not have different start areas.


I believe that for a mod to be successful, and not choke on itself, it has to have schedule, plans, do-lists and keep to them. Otherwise, you will just spend time dreamimg and doing this and that, but never reach the completion. Yes, it sounds boring. But I do belive in reason C, appart from your reasons A and B, which are perfectly valid:

C: a component is too complex and requires too much writing and coding for what it accomplishes.

I have included such a component in BG1NPC - the challenges - I am sure the players will enjoy it, but looking back, 20+ cutscenes with a dozen of new actors, pages of dialogue, hours of work put in by Jastey and myself was a huge overkill for letting a player chose if s/he wants to romance Ajantis or Coran. I learned my lesson. I will not commit to a grandiouse plan or try to outdo paid BioWARE staff in my spare time, and neither I would advise anyone to try to do it. It will end up in a burn out and abandonned material.

In this case, starting in an inn where PC was summoned solves the problem without creating six completely diffrent scenarios. Both creative and coding workload then can be transfered to making that one path an excellenyt one, instead of doing six half-ass, or spending months.

It always the trick to balance effort, speed and quality.

#51 Mongoose87

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Posted 12 August 2005 - 08:24 PM

Perhpas, as to the startign areas, you should design a somewhat generic one that ftis humans, but could work for the other races. This would serve until th mod is done, or nearly so, and if it is deemed appropriate, the other areas could be made.

#52 Rabain

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 07:04 AM

@Mongoose87- I had thought about that but then I thought what would be the point of having different area's if all the dialogue/quests were the same?

@Ashara-I get the impression that the "fooling around" in the topic title is quickly becoming "I am seriously considering this as my next project". :)

I won't argue the point, I understand your point of view. I'll outline what my idea would have been:

Each race specific area would be small, smaller than candlekeep, say four or so buildings/tents/rooms:

Dwarves: small underground complex, dwarves are leaving because the seam of metal they have been following has abruptly ended. You take this opportunity to let your father know you won't be going with the Clan.

Humans: small rural village, a visitor at the inn tells you a tale of your father that leads you to want to follow in his footsteps...adventurer.

Elves: small forest camp, on a routine patrol you meet a ranger with a story to tell, a group of Goblinoids is fortifying an abandoned fort just beyond your borders. You are sent to take a look.

Halflings: small halfling town (like Gullykin). You have spent your life prying into business that is not yours, in a friendly way mostly. You are told to fetch this, carry that etc..you are bored. You take the opportunity to slip away in the night.

Half-Orc: small orc tribe. You have always been an outcast, half-breed. Now your tribe is under attack by a larger band of orc's..your only option...run or die!

Gnomes: Your merchant caravan has stopped to make some repairs. Your father is going to the city on business and you wanted to go too...ambush and separation follow leaving you in the wilderness alone.

---

Each of these area's would lead to the same wilderness area, allowing all races to follow the same path from there. Creating 3 or 4 fetch and carry quests for each area wouldn't be big deal in my opinion. But yes it would involve more work than just one generic start area. Perhaps you could even meet the first new npc in the wilderness area...randomly either a Human (looking for adventure), an Elf (on patrol), a Gnome (injured and lost)...you get the idea.

Edited by Rabain, 13 August 2005 - 11:23 AM.

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#53 -Ashara-

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 11:15 AM

I get the idea, but I still just don't see the point - all that backstory neatly fits in Biography file and a unified starting area is the first one... say that very glade where ToB starts, or Sigil, or the Nine Hells... At any rate, you are right, I am taking it waaay too seriously. I need to do Shilmista first to see if I can handle areas, which ever scares the living shit out of me. If I can't do it for Kivan, I can't do it for anything else. And the way I see my modding future it is that I either upgrade my skills to handle area editing or retire.

Edited by Ashara, 13 August 2005 - 11:18 AM.


#54 Rabain

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 12:02 PM

If you are ever thinking of actually doing this I would be interested in getting involved in the area art side of things.

Doing new outdoor area's is something I actually enjoy and do from time to time just for the fun of it! Check out the few I have given away HERE..

These are just the background images but I can do the full area with walls, search regions, doors, containers etc if needed. The only thing I dislike doing is all the dialogue involved in populating said area's!
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#55 -Ashara-

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Posted 13 August 2005 - 01:07 PM

Wow, that outdoor area with the standing stones and a walkway is very neat. It starts sounding more and more tempting and frighteningly real. A bit more and I will start considerng it as a viable alternative for my life after BG1NPC :blush:

#56 Sir BillyBob

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 06:28 AM

I find the areas to be the hardest to do just because of my crappy art skills. I don't have a problem with wallgroups, containers, dialogs, or any other part of mod making. Rabain, I may have a need for the red walled dungeon, though without the dragon. Great work and the idea of different starting points is not a bad idea.

The only issue may be that the game uses a 2DA file to tell it where to place your new PC. So you may have to script an area file that moves the player to one of the other locations. The areas do not have to be on the Worldmap, but at some point, you need players to see the map. So moving everyone to a common area could be the first location on the map.

Tired of Bhaal? Try some classics mods instead:
Classic Adventures
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#57 Kulyok

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 07:23 AM

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Edited by Kulyok, 14 August 2005 - 07:23 AM.


#58 Rabain

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 07:56 AM

The only issue may be that the game uses a 2DA file to tell it where to place your new PC.  So you may have to script an area file that moves the player to one of the other locations.  The areas do not have to be on the Worldmap, but at some point, you need players to see the map.  So moving everyone to a common area could be the first location on the map.

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Yeah my idea would have been to have a small blank area as the start area and then a script that transports the PC to relevant starting area.

Any of the area's in the link above are free for use as you see fit! Small mention in your readme is all I ask :)
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#59 -Ashara-

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 06:25 AM

Huh, I gave it a thought, and I decided that I'd rather try to start small and do Shilmista after all, since I have a relatively strong story-line in mind, some maps accumulated for it already, and it is has a higher chance of success.

#60 -Ashara-

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 08:52 AM

And still, how's that for a hook? PC here is the namesake of the PC of old, and completely identical stats etc, and can be justifyably either lower or equal in levels.

For a few weeks, you, an adventurer of some repute, had been drawn to ride onward and onward. You come to Boyderski Bridge (or Sigil) and there, there stands a small chapel. You enter it, and under your feet, an unadorned plaque starts weeping. An old priest/esse walks toward you and asks, ?What is your name, stranger??

CHARNAME you say, and so you are whisked away by the priests of the Lord/Lady of Murder, CHARNAME, to become their champion, the very image of CHARNAME in flesh. Only by escaping the priests, and finding out what it is that tied you to the deity and breaking this bonds you can become free again.