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Magical Armor discussion


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#1 Hety

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 08:29 AM

BTW about the armor mentioned. In original BG1 and in BG2 you can put on dragon/ankheg armor + migical rings/amulets/cloaks. Why cant we do it anymore? Yes, all those armors are +2-5 and so on. But its not magic that give's em such properties, but the material itself. The ankheg plates are better than plain steel/iron and the suit is better. I see no reason why it should be magical.
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#2 masteraleph

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 08:57 AM

Hety-

IIRC, in vanilla BG2 only the red dragon plate was non-magical. Regardless, that's a TOB change- the designers specifically felt that such items were magical and should not be stackable.

At least in BG2, there are some limited solutions. Ring of Gaxx and Cloak of the Sewers, for example, both add to armor class but are stackable with each other and with magical armor.

#3 Hety

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 09:14 AM

Ring of Gaxx and Cloak of Sewers are not intended to be 100% protective items, while rings/cloaks of protection are. Their bonuses to AC are ... side effects. They also dont give + to saves.
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#4 Promilus

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 05:16 AM

Also ring of earth controll, balduran cloak and few others items were stackable...why? Because they uses another AC modification (AC shield, AC dodge, AC natural, AC deflection...and i.e. helmets/swords/boots/bets with AC modifier uses the only stackable modifier which is dodge-the same modifier can be used in rings, cloaks end others items...like bracers and amulets)
Generic magical items like ring of protection uses deflection modifiers...It is ALMOST the same system as in 3rd AD&D edition...

#5 Ascension64

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 05:19 AM

So what are we suggesting?

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#6 Hety

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 05:38 AM

In DnD3 all AC modifiers, exept natural, are non-stackable. Thats all. We cant make em non-stackable here, but i see no reason why cant we put on ankheg armor(NON magical, its just from good material) along with ring of protection?
There are no "deflection modifiers" on that armor(imho). Its just BETTER.

I suggest to make all armor from "natural"components non-magical. All Ankheg and Dragon Scale armor. Human Flesh armor should still be magical(because we use dragon blood to enhance it).

Edited by Hety, 15 August 2005 - 05:41 AM.

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#7 Promilus

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 06:16 AM

Well...dragon blood is magical...the same as dragon scales used to create armor.
There are several types of armor with basic AC...i.e. Full plate armor have AC0 and full mithril plate armor would have -2 (as the mithrill give+2 basic enhancement)...All about it was in the player manual of 2nd edition...
At the 3rd editin only DODGE modifier is stackable...that is why monk boots/robes gives stackable bonuses...and the TUMBLE AC bonus is propably also dodge (or maybe natural...but it would be weird-natural is not stackable)...
Expample for 2nd edition:
Natural armor of playable characters are always 10...they can get DEX modifier (15 dex=+1AC...). Monk starts with natural armor of 10 and the "virtual" armor at 9 which decrease with level. All other classes use robes/armors to decrease AC value..if wear Full Plate Armor with AC 0 and have 18 DEX your total AC would be -4 (gauntlets with AC have also Armor AC...exceptions are gauntlets of extraordinary specialization...they SHOULD have dodge modifier but they don't have it)..back to the topic...your -4 AC can be decreased by using Ring of Gaxx which gives +2 to AC (it is dodge so stackable)...so ur AC is now -6...u can also use ring of protection+3 which gives deflection modifier (non stackable)...so that is why u can't use ring and cloak of protection at the same time...and also magic armors. Magical helmets with AC bonus (Balduran helmet) and cloak of sewers use dodge modifier and that is stackable...with all those equipment the AC would be around -11. If somehow the natural AC would drop from 10 (i.e. by using Shadow Keeper) the total AC would drop also...All the things about cloak of sewers, ring of earth controll or ring of gaxx are not bugs or side effects...only minor bug was the ST bonus from earth control ring...and as I know it has been fixed.
ALL THE MODS THAT MAKE MAGIC ITEMS STACKABLE JUST TWEAK MODIFIER TYPE TO DODGE!
This topic is about Ring of Free Action so I will not spam here anymore...Hety-for more info visit the WotC site and/or download their manuals.

#8 Hety

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 07:00 AM

Well...dragon blood is magical...the same as dragon scales used to create armor.
There are several types of armor with basic AC...i.e. Full plate armor have AC0 and full mithril plate armor would have -2 (as the mithrill give+2 basic enhancement)...All about it was in the player manual of 2nd edition...
At the 3rd editin only DODGE modifier is stackable...that is why monk boots/robes gives stackable bonuses...and the TUMBLE AC bonus is propably also dodge (or maybe natural...but it would be weird-natural is not stackable)...
Expample for 2nd edition:
Natural armor of playable characters are always 10...they can get DEX modifier (15 dex=+1AC...). Monk starts with natural armor of 10 and the "virtual" armor at 9 which decrease with level. All other classes use robes/armors to decrease AC value..if wear Full Plate Armor with AC 0 and have 18 DEX your total AC would be -4 (gauntlets with AC have also Armor AC...exceptions are gauntlets of extraordinary specialization...they SHOULD have dodge modifier but they don't have it)..back to the topic...your -4 AC can be decreased by using Ring of Gaxx which gives +2 to AC (it is dodge so stackable)...so ur AC is now -6...u can also use ring of protection+3 which gives deflection modifier (non stackable)...so that is why u can't use ring and cloak of protection at the same time...and also magic armors. Magical helmets with AC bonus (Balduran helmet) and cloak of sewers use dodge modifier and that is stackable...with all those equipment the AC would be around -11. If somehow the natural AC would drop from 10 (i.e. by using Shadow Keeper) the total AC would drop also...All the things about cloak of sewers, ring of earth controll or ring of gaxx are not bugs or side effects...only minor bug was the ST bonus from earth control ring...and as I know it has been fixed.
ALL THE MODS THAT MAKE MAGIC ITEMS STACKABLE JUST TWEAK MODIFIER TYPE TO DODGE!
This topic is about Ring of Free Action so I will not spam here anymore...Hety-for more info visit the WotC site and/or download their manuals.


You got me. Only dodge modifier stacks.

Full Plate mail got AC1(in BG). Ankheg plate mail got AC1. I see no armor modifiers here. Thats why it can stack with whatever it wish, imho.

Ok. Lets assume that dragon scales are magical itself and thats why they give + ar modifier.
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#9 Promilus

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:22 AM

Ok...but ankheg armor is a plate type, not a full plate...that is why it has +2 enchantment. The mithril chainmail+4 from Drizzt has AC 1...normal chainmail has AC5...so the component from which the armor is made has nothing to do with it (in dnd3 it gives additional properties...but not enhancement)...Mithrill full plate+2 from Bruenor has AC -1 so the mithril is only funny name...but really even Stell Full Plate+2 has -1 AC...so the Red Dragon Scale Armor if considered as FULL PLATE has +2 enchantment...and if considered PLATE has +4 enchantment.
In the manual however enchantment on armor *should* affect both AC and ST-the same way as it is with ring/cloak/amulet of protection...this was on early 2nd edition rules...It was changed to only AC bonus. ST stacks always...AC only when dodge modifier is used...natural AC is rare other than 10...Kensai propably have natural AC 8 (it is impossible to check which modifier he is using)...
making a point: there is no differance between Ankheg armor and plate armor+2...both are using the same enchantment...the same: there is no difference between elven chainmail+4 (bladesinger chain) and mithril chainmail+4 (Drizzt chain)...both have the same enchantment and both are chain...so the base AC5 and +4 enchant gives as resault armor with AC1...however all elven chainmails and all drow chainmails allow to cast spells when wearing armor-it is unique and set propably as proper flag/effect.
gauntlets with AC has considered just like the armor...wearing gloves with AC3 and chain with AC5 give only gloves AC Armor modifier...wearing gloves AC5 and plate with AC 3 gives only plate armor modifier...however if ANY glove/helmet/shield/belt/boots have +X AC enchant it is ALWAYS dodge (it can be made to be Armor...or deflection, but what for? )...the rings/amulets/cloaks of protection always give deflection modifier...few rings/cloaks/amulets give dodge modifer...also Ioun stones give dodge.
It's nice to chat with you...but this section is about BGT-WeiDU...I don't want to made moderators angry :)

#10 Hety

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 08:50 AM

As soon as there are difference in BG1/BG2 behavour its ok in this section i believe :)

Actually i always thought that Ankheg PM is actually a FPM with decreased weight. I was wrong ;)

Also i see your point ;) I wont EVER see my beloved tanks in Ankheg armor + rings again... *sob*.. j/k :)

Anyway i think that discussion is over, Thx Promilus, was great to hear your opinion *bows*
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#11 Ascension64

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 11:41 PM

I am thinking to keep the way as it is because allowing such a thing would make the game more 'unbalanced' than it already is. I can't remember who it was, but he had an uber party that smacked everything that it came across, so just making that kind of thing more accessible would be rather stupid I believe. Also, on light of this topic, I am even thinking of REMOVING the Taerom's extra Ankheg Armor feature just for this purpose - therefore, only one ankheg armor can be retrieved and that is hard to find in itself. Comments?

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#12 Promilus

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 01:30 AM

Uhm...don't change anything...the start of the game is really hard (annoying) because of armor/shield/weapons shattering...one hit on a rat can brake a weapon...one arrow from a Kobold can shatter armor...wihtout those 2 Ankhegs plates it is really difficult (one from hidden stash and one made by smithy). U can disable hidden stash armor but in exchange shattering chance should be lowered (this is far too high for me)...

#13 Hety

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 02:33 AM

Shattering chance is based on damage or strength, right? My orc warrior had lots of trouble with those two-handers... Anyway 2 ankheg armors are just as much as we need. Usual party - 2 tanks and priest. 2 ankheg armors and one bought from smithy. Good enough for me.
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#14 Ascension64

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 02:53 AM

Shattering chance is based on damage or strength, right? My orc warrior had lots of trouble with those two-handers... Anyway 2 ankheg armors are just as much as we need. Usual party - 2 tanks and priest. 2 ankheg armors and one bought from smithy. Good enough for me.

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Shattering chance is based entirely on random numbers actually. I see your argument, but you get Ankheg Armors late in the game right, in Chapter 5 before you enter Baldur's Gate. This means that by then, you should already have full plate and magic weapons that don't ever shatter. To me, it seems that Ankheg Armor makes a tank a bigger tank and does not help the unfortunate at the start of the game.

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#15 Hety

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 03:04 AM

Ankheg armor, actually, is the only good armor for low strength NPC's(like Viconia, Branwen). For main tanks i prefer Full Plate because in never(or almost never) shatters and i can put rings of protection also.

And i(BAD BAD CHEATER) get Ankheg armor from stash in Nashkel. So it helps alot in the beginning.

Anyway to decrease uberness SimDing0's xp patch - best thing possible. Items wont help much.
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#16 masteraleph

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 12:28 PM

I see your argument, but you get Ankheg Armors late in the game right, in Chapter 5 before you enter Baldur's Gate.  This means that by then, you should already have full plate and magic weapons that don't ever shatter.  To me, it seems that Ankheg Armor makes a tank a bigger tank and does not help the unfortunate at the start of the game.

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Actually, you can get Ankheg armor at pretty much any time, as you can wander north from the Friendly Arm Inn as soon as you get there. Whether you can kill the Ankhegs at that point is another question entirely.

Also (as has been pointed out), there's one of those 3 pixel stashes in Nashkel (IIRC it's out on the left of the screen, in the farm area; TAB to highlight with TOB). It contains a suit of Ankheg armor.

#17 Ascension64

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:36 AM

I see your argument, but you get Ankheg Armors late in the game right, in Chapter 5 before you enter Baldur's Gate.  This means that by then, you should already have full plate and magic weapons that don't ever shatter.  To me, it seems that Ankheg Armor makes a tank a bigger tank and does not help the unfortunate at the start of the game.

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Actually, you can get Ankheg armor at pretty much any time, as you can wander north from the Friendly Arm Inn as soon as you get there. Whether you can kill the Ankhegs at that point is another question entirely.

Also (as has been pointed out), there's one of those 3 pixel stashes in Nashkel (IIRC it's out on the left of the screen, in the farm area; TAB to highlight with TOB). It contains a suit of Ankheg armor.

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So why do we even need Taerom to smithy one for you? It seems a waste of time and space... :D

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#18 -grogerson-

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 04:16 AM

Not to be too troublesome, but it *is* in the BG1 game. And as has been pointed out, there are only two that can be gained.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the ankheg armor is also wearable by druids. It's one of the few armors they can wear that gives them decent protection.

BTW, how did we get on this when the original topic is the problem with boots of speed and ring of free action interactions?

My two cents.

#19 Marupal

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 06:49 PM

It'd be a shame to see BG1 lose it's only smithy(that I've found, anyway.) With TOB having Cesspenar and Kerrick, and SOA having Cromwell--BG1 would be the ugly duckling :P

If changing from traditional BG1-my two cents-more minor unique items would be appropriate. But that's a job for a mod.

#20 Ascension64

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 08:24 PM

I mean, looking more from a 'faithful' conversion perspective: Ankheg Shells of course can be seen to be useless, but isn't it up to an actual item mod to introduce some kind of use for it? And surely, BioWare never seemed to intend to put the Ankheg Shells to a smithy role, rather as an item that could be sold to some punk at Baldur's Gate for a certain amount a piece. From this view, BGT-WeiDU should not include such a 'tweak'. However, I could be hypocrisizing because a number of other features in BGT-WeiDU can be considered 'tweaks' as well.

To 'tweak', or not to 'tweak'? That is the question, and drawing the line between 'tweak' and 'fix' as well is the most difficult issue I have come across. Feel free to comment on the utility of things like item shattering, custom items for Sarevok and Semaj, and Kagain's Entar Silvershield son quest, and any other features in the readme that you would like to praise/slam/smack :fish: .

Edited by Ascension64, 17 August 2005 - 08:25 PM.

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