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Morality and ethics in Brythe


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#1 Shfelliot

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Posted 08 January 2006 - 04:51 PM

One of the broader subjects which will be be a major focus of this particular character mod, as I have mentioned in the pinned topics, is the ethicality and morality of you, a good or neutral character, taking along a person who was convicted and admits freely to having murdered a large number of people in the past. This particular topic is a more focused conversation to questions and discussion on the difficult implications of taking such an individual along with you. (ergo again why Brythe isn't for evil parties...if you're evil, there isn't such a strong conflict of interest). Here I will answer questions, discussions, and debate the need or utter disgust of taking such a character along. I hope to inspire a little debate, a little interest, and perhaps a few ideas and implications I myself haven't considered.

Take the following points into account:

--Brythe is a former serial killer on a large scale, and one of Tethyr's worst of all time. This is a fact. A large number of people died by his hand in two weeks. He didn't just murder men...he killed women and children...even babies, just as indiscriminately. He admits this much very openly.
--Brythe, by the letter of the law, served his time in Tethyr's prison. Through a series of coincedences and changes in the government that could have only taken place in Tethyr's insane and unstable political climate and current ruler of region, his case was overlooked and forgotten to the point where one day, 63 years later, he was released. In broader detail, he should have been sentenced to be executed, but his murders took place during a rather bloody political civil war, and his case and files were buried for the need to cover up his crimes as there was enough scare in the region at the time, and Brythe was imprisoned, supposedly waiting a quiet execution when things died down. A few years later, a political coup takes place in which the castle which the files are kept is burned to the ground, Brythe's among them. Decades go by and he is simply forgotten about. Years later, the old lord dies and a new lord takes over. A new political uprising is shaping, and the prisons are getting full. The new lord, desperate to get some openings for more pressing political prisoners, absentmindedly gives a full pardon to a certain selection of old criminals to make way for the new. Brythe's release is, in a way, very much a random and strangely seemingly unimportant thing, very much in the vein of the nation he was raised in.

So this brings to mind the questions and topic of conversation. You know his offer from the intro. You are, in this mod, if you so choose to take him along, choosing to bring along a murderer whose acts were equal to or more heinous than those of Neb. Questions I ask you to ask yourselves in the discussion:

1) Can you deal with the ramifications of taking someone like this along? Can *you* coexist with him? How are you going to placate your fellow party members, especially those of good alignment, to coexist with them?
2) Why are you taking him along? Do you believe such a person is capable of redemption? Or do you recognize his offer and see him just as he sees himself, an amoral tool?
3) Has Brythe served his time? He *has* gone through the Tethyrian justice system for his crime, as seriously shaky as it is, and technically he has gone through his sentence and gotten out. Or is thie Tethyrian system just too flawed and should he have been executed a long time ago? Once a murderer, always a murderer? Is he deserving of a second chance, or should he simply rot in the Abyss? Or do you even care, and just want a meat shield?

Edited by Shfelliot, 16 September 2008 - 03:20 PM.


#2 Archmage Silver

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:51 AM

Have you given any thought to NPC interaction based on Brythe's rather horrible deeds? Like e.g. Keldorn deciding to perform the long due execution himself? Or Korgan chattering about how did Brythe manage to kill so many in so little time and what methods he used etc.?

#3 Andyr

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:26 AM

Will Brythe tell us why he committed the crimes, if we ask him? And before he's in the party, or only after?
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#4 SConrad

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 10:29 AM

The explanation will be revealed, yes, but not initially. :)

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#5 Shfelliot

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Posted 09 January 2006 - 03:31 PM

Have you given any thought to NPC interaction based on Brythe's rather horrible deeds? Like e.g. Keldorn deciding to perform the long due execution himself? Or Korgan chattering about how did Brythe manage to kill so many in so little time and what methods he used etc.?


Absolutely yes. Every NPC is going to have their own unique reaction and conversations with Brythe. There will be many instances where you will probably have to do some rather convincing negotiating to keep certain party members in your party. There are some who will be able to cope with it, and a few who simply will eventually not be able to coexist with such an individual. A lot of it depends on you, and some opinions will change over a course of time with them conversing with Brythe. Not all conversations will take the route you expect, and certain NPCs may have a variety of interesting, divergnig and unexpected results over the course of talking. I love character interaction, and I promise a lot of depth and staying true to what I believe the designers intended for each NPC, though I promise nothing when it comes to capitalizing on some of the lesser mentioned nuances in certain character personalities. ;) Though as expected, there will be at least a couple of NPCs that simply will not be able to cope, some for obvious reasons, and some perhaps not. ;) I want to allow the maximum number of NPCs to be able to coexist with Brythe for a wide possibility of parties, which is why a lot of NPCs will have dialogues that require you the PC to convince them to stay in, but even *I* realize, for the sake of staying true to characters, there are just certain NPCs who will not be able to get past what Brythe has done. But what I hope to intrigue you a little bit is on certain unlikely people I believe *could* get past it. ;)

#6 Archmage Silver

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:32 AM


Have you given any thought to NPC interaction based on Brythe's rather horrible deeds? Like e.g. Keldorn deciding to perform the long due execution himself? Or Korgan chattering about how did Brythe manage to kill so many in so little time and what methods he used etc.?


Absolutely yes. Every NPC is going to have their own unique reaction and conversations with Brythe. There will be many instances where you will probably have to do some rather convincing negotiating to keep certain party members in your party. There are some who will be able to cope with it, and a few who simply will eventually not be able to coexist with such an individual. A lot of it depends on you, and some opinions will change over a course of time with them conversing with Brythe. Not all conversations will take the route you expect, and certain NPCs may have a variety of interesting, divergnig and unexpected results over the course of talking. I love character interaction, and I promise a lot of depth and staying true to what I believe the designers intended for each NPC, though I promise nothing when it comes to capitalizing on some of the lesser mentioned nuances in certain character personalities. ;) Though as expected, there will be at least a couple of NPCs that simply will not be able to cope, some for obvious reasons, and some perhaps not. ;) I want to allow the maximum number of NPCs to be able to coexist with Brythe for a wide possibility of parties, which is why a lot of NPCs will have dialogues that require you the PC to convince them to stay in, but even *I* realize, for the sake of staying true to characters, there are just certain NPCs who will not be able to get past what Brythe has done. But what I hope to intrigue you a little bit is on certain unlikely people I believe *could* get past it. ;)

Sounds like you're really delving into this, which is always good. You guys keep it up, you've got me interested. ^_^

#7 disari

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 09:32 PM

He sounds fascinating. Being a psychologist I will be interested in how you portray him. One of the more interesting ideas I've seen outside of Tsujatha. A mass murderer very thought provoking. I also appreciate the straight fighter class. It is a refreshing change and a useful one. I am intrigued by the thought of no interjections in the middle of something. So many interjections come at the most inconvienient times. I am hoping to see hgood progress. He sounds a lot more interesting than Khadion (no offense meant for anyone) There are enough childlike NPCs. I will keep up with your progress and look forward to playing the mod. :rolleyes:

#8 Jarley

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:58 PM

First of all I want to say that you've really sparked my interest with Brythe.

I don't normally take any evil characters in my party because I usually find them being evil simply for the sake of being so (or because their race dictates it). With Brythe I'd really want to know why he did what he did and if he had some other reason than just 'I wanted to hear them scream'. I'd really like to see sanity in the evil he's done. And I'm always interested in seeing if someone can be redeemed. I'm not really concerned if this redemption happens through love, hate, death etc.

When it comes to characters I enjoy the ones that have both evil and good in them. I cannot stand a character that's only one or the other.

I'd probably have no trouble in coexisting with Brythe. Convincing the other companions could be a bit harder since I believe there are some who couldn't stand him in the party (Aerie, Anomen, perhaps Keldorn, even Nalia might have trouble with him). I would probably, as a PC, try to spark the other companions interest in Brythe. I believe that, for example, Jaheira could be reasoned with by saying that there's balance to all things and for every Brythe there is some saintlike person.

Why would I take him along? To see redemption or if he's capable of regretting his actions. The redemption wouldn't have to be 'I'll never kill again' -type. It could be something small that showes that he isn't rotten to the core. Some people, perhaps, need to be loved as they are and not as who they were or could become.

I don't really believe it is possible for someone like Brythe to serve his time, not unless there's some regret in him. One can sit in jail for ages and still kill the first person they come across once freed. I don't think it's really the years spent in prison that can change a person, it has to be an experience while being in prison. He could've simply waited 'til he gets out and start killing again. Or something might've happened that'd stay his hand and make him think just whom to kill.
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#9 countingdown7

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 07:50 PM

Uhhh, if you can forgive Sarevok, you can forgive anyone ;)

#10 Hecate

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 12:31 PM

I just stumbled in this character almost by chance, and as soon as I readed the description my mouse went directly to the "Download" button. Then I realized it was still in progress, and said "Damn".

What I want to say with this is that I devoured all the information available in this forum about him and I'm completely enthralled. This comment about the heavy psycological content just made things worse (or better, depending on how you see it). The opportunities of deep and clever conversation, specially on the ground of morality, is too attractive for me to ignore. There were good conversations with the original NPCs, sure, but I don't know exactly why, discussing this thing with someone who spent 63 years in prission for massive genocide makes it all much more interesting. Just his introduction was disturbing yet at the same time strangely intriguing. He just admit he's a murderer, but at the same time he do not say why. If he were evil or not feel a single drop of remorse he'd tell you, right? "I did it because I felt like it", "It was just my job", etc. He make no excuse, but he don't apologize either. (Of course this is just based in what you showed us so far.)

This only makes me think. He's like a puppet; he obey anything you could say to him, but I wonder, until what extent? When it comes to him, is he reserved? If you demand him to answer a question, would he anwer it right away, or he'll refuse if you ask too early in the relationship? We may not trust him at the beggining, but will he trust you? He says he's a tool and nothing more, but I guess he still have preservation instincts and sense of privacy. Or not? I assume he won't tell you everything after five minutes of "firming the contract", so to speak... or the questions and conversations will be story-drived? I mean, you can inquire directly about his crimes, expecting he'll cry is heart out, but he says no (I know how character development works, so understand this is just an example; killing the mystery so early is not good for anyone XD), or the question would appear in the right moment in the converation tree and not before?

I'm very, very interested in this mod. When the time comes to play it, I'm certain that my Neutral character will take him along just for the sake of curiosity. He's such a rarity, both as a person in the game and as a character in real life. You guys got me honestly intrigued.

I wonder how's the progress... *Way to drop the subject*


PD: Sorry for the flood of questions; I've been disconected a while of all this and Brythe made me snap onto it again XD
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#11 Shfelliot

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 07:04 PM

I just stumbled in this character almost by chance, and as soon as I readed the description my mouse went directly to the "Download" button. Then I realized it was still in progress, and said "Damn".

What I want to say with this is that I devoured all the information available in this forum about him and I'm completely enthralled. This comment about the heavy psycological content just made things worse (or better, depending on how you see it). The opportunities of deep and clever conversation, specially on the ground of morality, is too attractive for me to ignore. There were good conversations with the original NPCs, sure, but I don't know exactly why, discussing this thing with someone who spent 63 years in prission for massive genocide makes it all much more interesting. Just his introduction was disturbing yet at the same time strangely intriguing. He just admit he's a murderer, but at the same time he do not say why. If he were evil or not feel a single drop of remorse he'd tell you, right? "I did it because I felt like it", "It was just my job", etc. He make no excuse, but he don't apologize either. (Of course this is just based in what you showed us so far.)

This only makes me think. He's like a puppet; he obey anything you could say to him, but I wonder, until what extent? When it comes to him, is he reserved? If you demand him to answer a question, would he anwer it right away, or he'll refuse if you ask too early in the relationship? We may not trust him at the beggining, but will he trust you? He says he's a tool and nothing more, but I guess he still have preservation instincts and sense of privacy. Or not? I assume he won't tell you everything after five minutes of "firming the contract", so to speak... or the questions and conversations will be story-drived? I mean, you can inquire directly about his crimes, expecting he'll cry is heart out, but he says no (I know how character development works, so understand this is just an example; killing the mystery so early is not good for anyone XD), or the question would appear in the right moment in the converation tree and not before?

I'm very, very interested in this mod. When the time comes to play it, I'm certain that my Neutral character will take him along just for the sake of curiosity. He's such a rarity, both as a person in the game and as a character in real life. You guys got me honestly intrigued.

I wonder how's the progress... *Way to drop the subject*


PD: Sorry for the flood of questions; I've been disconected a while of all this and Brythe made me snap onto it again XD


Progress goes! I hope to have some more character NPC talks up in a few weeks. I think next I want to show a draft of some of the first character interactions with Brythe as well. The romance talks are going well too (and my fellow assisters are going to murder me because I am so lazy in posting them in the forums XD).

All of course, insanely good questions about character development. Brythe is *all* about character development...meaning, you CAN use him as a a non-talking tool, but if you do, you're missing out on Brythe himself. All I can say to your questions is there is a LOT of information you can garner from Brythe through long, existing talks right off the bat...if you want to spend hours just conversing with him, go for it, because there is a LOT. He will immediately volunteer most things about himself if asked (but ONLY if asked...he never says information himself)...except of course, that one thing, which you are going to have to very arduously EARN. Are a few events story-driven? Sure. But not even close all of it...in fact most is simply by asking the right thing. You could probably get all you needed to just by going through everything all at once...but why would you want to do that? There are things you can only learn about Brythe if you ask him about it, and learning certain things or approaching him about certain things or asking him things a certain way lead to certain information and other information. And the passing of certain events will add more choices through time. There is no WRONG way to talk to Brythe...just different...you'd have to play through the mod several times to get everything out of it...it is VERY multibranching in the dialogue branches. Brythe is all about choice. This literally means you can play the game three times and learn three different slews of things about Brythe! My point is, for the most part you will get as much out of Brythe as you put into him, as you delve and try to match your mind with his as you slowly try to unlock his brain, which is wholly intended to mess with your mind on a very deep level should you try. Think of talking to him as a chess game with a grand master. Brythe is fairly intelligent; he's not the world's most brilliant individual, but being so old and having SO much time to himself to just sit and THINK has evolved him very deeply on philosophy, personal wisdom, and the very question of being to a level that might mindf*ck elves. He isn't your typical philosopher...he's flawed, unintentionally amusing, bitter, prone to weakness, and borderline completely batshit. There are times when you might actually pity or take a liking to him and times you might think you should kill him where his evil ass stands and times your brain will just dissolve trying to figure him out or recoil in horror. And on top of this remember he DID kill 150 people, including women and children, and there *will* be a part of the game where he may broach, very deeply on some of the most horrific acts of those terrible weeks in detail as his fragmented mind recalls it. On a psychological level, Brythe is a very, VERY mature NPC not recommended for beginners. Brythe is not some sort of self-righteous statement; just a fun character study on the most mental levels...there is a lot of me IN Brythe to ensure I understand his motivations on the level I have to. There are so many aspects to this mod...romance possibilties, redemption possibilities, even just ACCEPTANCE possibilities. Try your luck and see what happened. He is intended make you laugh sometimes, cringe sometimes, and just raise your eyebrows sometimes. The most surprising thing about Brythe is how down-to-earth he is, and how underneath it all you can still see that little farm boy from way back. It's very unbecoming and disarming for a former serial killer to be so...dorky-go-lucky. XD

Edited by Shfelliot, 15 March 2009 - 11:01 AM.


#12 Cal Jones

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 11:03 PM

I am really glad to hear this one is still going - he sounds fascinating. I'm looking forward to playing him!