262 replies to this topic

[Andyr]

TBG-2 (yes, you may use that if you wish)

(as an aside, already been coined )

[igi]

The tool statements have been updated - I'll note this in the next TBG News post as well.

If anyone has anything to add on the TBG revival please do so, however note that I do not consider posts about rudeness, past administration (of various sites), the defintion of flames and so on relevant to the discussion, and I would highly appreciate them not being posted (and this includes "I just want to get the last word in the argument, I was right, lets move on" posts as well!).

So, with the tools and guest posting taken care of, does anyone else have anything to say?

[Baronius]

You know, in the end it's their opinion, their policy. If they want to hold on to these and similar statements and sentiments, it is their full right to do so. They are not after all the first community on the block to adopt an arrogant attitude.

If I interpret you correctly (please tell me if I don't), you say that this ("Father of it all") is also arrogant -- I've to disappoint you: TeamBG is indeed the start of the organized IE modding, start of IE modding supported in website and community level. Whether you like or not.

While it's sadly not legacy, WinBiff should be highlighted as extremely dangerous. Pretty much nobody should be using it.

Please provide examples or more details about its dangers. It if isn't run in Advanced mode (I can't tell anything about this mode as I didn't use to edit Biffs with it), it a great tool to browse ALL game files and extract them.
For a certain reason (DLTCEP problem on an older PC), I regularly used WinBiff for a long time, with no errors. For the development of Grey Clan: Candlelight.

[Baronius]

Guest 1:
Thanks for the clarification on the editor (Advanced) mode.
Basic mode doesn't allow any editing. So, based on the currently available information at least, it can be stated that WinBiff is still a working and -- according to the tests -- reliable tool in Basic mode.
I'm supporting to keep the availability (with warning/reminder texts on their download locations) of certain tools indeed, for a good and rational reason. (Which I detailed in my previous posts, I'm not going to repeat myself.)

Guest 2 (assuming you're different from 1):
I'm not sure I get what you mean. I suppose your point is about being humble. I agree that it's nice and can be useful as well, especially for starting sites. However, I don't think it's so rejecting to state something which is true; and I don't think it's so immodest to say that TeamBG was "the father of all". They don't say this means they are above others etc. It may imply negative things as well, but why to judge anything on assumptions? Let's learn to see the positive, to assume the positive instead of negative.

Edited by Baronius, 26 June 2006 - 09:32 AM.

[Baronius]

Your metaphor is irrelevant. Why do you want to take from these tools what they are really able to do? Why to deny that? WinBiff can extract an item file as reliably as DLTCEP.
(Furthemore, every tool in unsafe, because they can edit your game. If I make an item with DLTCEP/Cromwell's Smithy that crashes the game, does this mean DLTCEP or Smithy is a dangerous tool?)

[Baronius]

Guest 2: Thanks for your reply. I would like to add something to my previous statements:

However, I don't think it's so rejecting to state something which is true; and I don't think it's so immodest to say that TeamBG was "the father of all". They don't say this means they are above others etc.

I.e. that if -- with their new policy and decisions -- they prove they mean it in the "right" way, I will be content. However, if they will inherit the negative sides of the old TBG as well (and/or will have new features which reject people such as using and changing other authors' material without any notice and then denying it), I won't be happy. Just like I did in the beginning of this thread, I say let's give time to the new TeamBG. I think that if they can adapt themselves to the community; (in my dictionary, there is one community and multiple sites, even if sometimes I accidently use the term "modding communities" without using quotation marks), i.e. if their acts will reflect that the possible negative things implied by their statements on the TBG site were nothing more than incorrect assumptions/false beliefs.
However, I also have to admit that some of their statements could be more humble IMO, indeed.

Guest 1:

IDU can create a corrupt DLG file which I can open in Sound Forge and save as a WAV to use as part of a beat in Reason. That doesn't make it any less of a horrible tool.
WinBiff provides dangerous functions, and there is no reason to use it whatsoever.

If it's explicitly proved* that the Basic mode is reliable, it's a reason to keep it available. It's another matter that you think it's no reason to use it. (It was the subject of another discussion whether to keep these tools publicly available or not.) I also think there is no reason to use it when there is a tool which offers the same as an integrated option. But it would be ridiculous to introduce WinBiff as an entirely useless or horrible tool just because its editor mode is dangerous.


*I don't state that my experience is enough to prove such, but it's a good basis. I used it for a comparatively long time with no problems. Though I'm pretty sure there is little or no chance in WinBiff to damage/corrupt anything during browsing/extracting the game's files.

Edited by Baronius, 26 June 2006 - 11:28 AM.

[the bigg]

I think YOU are acting like an idiot since the second post of this thread. Too full of yourself and arrogant to no end.

Thanks. I'm glad to see that my efforts didn't go unnoticed.

Edited by the bigg, 26 June 2006 - 11:48 AM.

[Baronius]

I only have to say that Theo did study programming, and the fact that IDU/IDW/IETME were never updated is only a matter of lazyness. He knows the bugs the tools have, and no, hes not going to fix them

I didn't want to imply that he wasn't aware of the bugs or wouldn't be able to correct them (if I had done it anywhere, let me correct myself here). However, what I tried to explain to theBigg in my long post about programming, is that it's not the same how a code is written. I'm not sure where or what Theo studied (I remembered that not in uni, but I apologise if I'm wrong), but this case is general and not just about him: it's much easier to fix bugs in a well-written code where the technology was chosen wisely etc. (And in uni you obviously get more versatile knowledge than in a course, for instance). This is why programmers who are studying in university or studied in university may produce better code than others (usually). But even for them, debugging is sometimes not a too easy task, and this is what I wanted to explain to theBigg. (Not sure with how much success).

And why wouldnt he claim ownership and "hide under a rock" instead? Cos he had the balls and spent time making a tool now obsolete? Thats as stupid as saying "dude, if i had invented the bike id hide under a rock cos now you have cars and planes". I think in its own time IDU did its job. Now you have better tools, hooray for it, by all means, use them and forget about IDU, just as youd use linux over windows 3.1.

Nice summary, Ana! Perfectly summarizes my point as well. And an explanation to why I suggest new modders (but not just them) to respect the old, now obsolete tools instead of talking them as c**p.