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An earlier attempt at Redemption?


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#1 Caedwyr

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 11:09 AM

A while back you mentioned that you were thinking of changing the redemption bit for Joneleth Irenicus to allow the player to take him with them through TOB. I think this is a good idea, as the way it stands now, the player has to kick out a party member in order to save Jon.

I've read your story Ashes (I think its called) over at the Attic and I was very impressed with the way you developed Jon's character. If you were to allow the player to take Jon along with them, it would be a nice twist if you were to reset Jon's level to 1. He could keep all the spells he already knew, but he would need to level up before being able to use them.

I hope you decide to do some more work in this area (and finish your Ashes story too :P )
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#2 dorotea

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Posted 15 March 2003 - 02:34 PM

A while back you mentioned that you were thinking of changing the redemption bit for Joneleth Irenicus to allow the player to take him with them through TOB.  I think this is a good idea, as the way it stands now, the player has to kick out a party member in order to save Jon.


Yeah, by you always have to kick someone out - that is the rule of the game is not it? The only reason for this is because Jon is a mage, and having a mage in the party as an 'ally' like Bodhi and Baltazar is not going to be much fun - you have to be able to select his spells. And besides - it gives a more 'personal' feel. I think I can make it so that one of your party members (the one to be kicked out) can go as an 'ally', how about that? But it willl suck surely.

As for having him along through the ToB - that will requre totall revamp of the Battle in Hell at the end of SoA, and I cannot see how he can switch sides and 'repent' when he is your most powerful opponent ... Mellysan was a good tool to make him think about his situation, as he realises he hates her more than you and switches sides in Redemption.

If you have a good idea on the matter - please share it with me. I was musing over this.. and even about writing Joneleth's romance for PC. They did share a soul after all ...

I've read your story Ashes (I think its called) over at the Attic and I was very impressed with the way you developed Jon's character.


It is called 'Bitter Grey Ashes' and it is going to be a full-scale novel. I already have 15 chapters or about 200 pages of the standard paperback written. It is posted at

http://www.onlinefic...itterAshes.html

If you were to allow the player to take Jon along with them, it would be a nice twist if you were to reset Jon's level to 1. He could keep all the spells he already knew, but he would need to level up before being able to use them.


Hmm, you are ~9-10 after SoA, what is the fun in dragging a level 1 elf with you? (and in Redemption he is indeed dumped to level 1 - if you could see his stats after transformation ) I was thinking about making a module based on the novel, maybe for NWN. With Jon as a main character.

I hope you decide to do some more work in this area (and finish your Ashes story too


Oh, I WILL finish Ashes - it is going to be a huge project for a year or so and I have a plot in my head that will expand into NWN and present time Forgotten Realms reality. If you like the novel I hope you will stick around and read it as it develops.

As for another mod with Joneleth as a npc -I sure am thinking of it. It is just I cannot see how I can accomplish his redemption before final show with Mellissan, and I would not do it unless the inner logic of the story would be compelling enough. I think a good story is more important in the mod than anything else.

Thanks again for your kind words!
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#3 Caedwyr

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 01:24 AM

A possible plot device for getting Jon in your party earlier, is to have Ellisime ask you to take a young elf with you when you leave Sudenesallar (the PC could either know who the elf is, or not; whatever works best.) This elf could be the level 1 Joneleth, like the one in Bitter Grey Ashes, with the same type of amnesia. The reasoning behind this, is Ellisime realizes that the punishment that was inflicted upon Joneleth made things worse, instead of bringing about his atonement. She could have petitoned the Seldarine to give Jon another chance if he accompanies a high rep/good alignment PC. While it could be difficult to babysit him early, he would quickly gain levels and get back to where he could be useful in the party. If this were found unplayable, then you could set his level to the 8-10 range, like the beginning of SOA. Throughout TOB, the PC could help Jon towards a healing of himself, and with his people. If the PC refuses to take the burden of such a low level character at the beginning of TOB, then the current Redemption Ending for Ascension could still be played out.
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#4 dorotea

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Posted 16 March 2003 - 09:25 PM

A possible plot device for getting Jon in your party earlier, is to have Ellisime ask you to take a young elf with you when you leave Sudenesallar (the PC could either know who the elf is, or not; whatever works best.) This elf could be the level 1 Joneleth, like the one in Bitter Grey Ashes, with the same type of amnesia. The reasoning behind this, is Ellisime realizes that the punishment that was inflicted upon Joneleth made things worse, instead of bringing about his atonement. She could have petitoned the Seldarine to give Jon another chance if he accompanies a high rep/good alignment PC.


Sounds tempting but ... if you've played Redemption you know the plot - Jon has to give his consent to the punishment, ie excersise his 'free will' if you like. I canot see how he can feel this way right after the SoA battle in Hell, before spending almost a year in the Abyss, in Demogorgon's care. there had to be a 'twist'. And I am not sure Ellie would be so benevolent right after he tried to destroy the city once again ...

If on the other hand it happens in ToB, after you've spend a month or so in Suldanesselar and visited the Elder Grove ... hmm.

While it could be difficult to babysit him early, he would quickly gain levels and get back to where he could be useful in the party. If this were found unplayable, then you could set his level to the 8-10 range, like the beginning of SOA. Throughout TOB, the PC could help Jon towards a healing of himself, and with his people. If the PC refuses to take the burden of such a low level character at the beginning of TOB, then the current Redemption Ending for Ascension could still be played out.


I am thinking more and more of additional adventure in the Abyss after the Elder's Grove but before the Saradush. Ellesime may ask you about Jonny and inquire if you can check on him in his afterlife. When the solar summons you for the first time and introduces you to Sarevok she can also show you Jon. If I can come with a proper idea for this module - I can write entire new zone in the Abyss module where you have an option of pardoning him and taking him into the party as a level 1. And he can have an opportunity to level there as well ... I can also do this romance thing for female npcs. Strange as it sounds - I was asked about it by several people. Chuckle. I guess - ladies like bad boys.
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#5 evildevil

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 02:40 PM

When the solar summons you for the first time and introduces you to Sarevok she can also show you Jon.


I like this idea! But I don't think any sane PC would (or should) be able to have both Jonleth and Sarevok in the party. The two former enemies of the PC don't seem like they'd get along anyway. My thought here...


[Normal Sarevok speech, up until his revival]

[Jonleth Appears]

Jon: Ah, [CHARNAME]... I should've expected to see you here. I still have a small taint of your soul within me, I'm afraid.

[Solar never leaves until the first challenge is open]

Sarevok: You must be Irenicus! I've heard about you.

Jon: And I've heard about you. Sarevok, is it?

Sarevok: Bah! I don't need to be hearing a lesser being like yourself!

Solar: Both of your former enemies seem to want something. Let them speak.

[Insert PC agree or disagree with Solar here]

Sarevok: I would like a small piece of your Godly soul, [CHARNAME]! My mortal essence has been regained, but I need your help to get me out of here. If you would give me a drop of your soul, I think I can prove my worth to you!

Jon: And I have a much better plan than that. The little bit of you I still have, [CHARNAME], brought me into this abyssal plane. I died by your hand, and I admit you are greater than I. I've been reduced to this! But I will fight on your side! I can get you out of here if you learn to trust me!

Sarevok: Ha! I could help you out of here just as quickly!

Solar: This will be one of the first questions you'll have to answer. You cannot free both of them. Whom do you wish to fight by your side?

-Sarevok

Solar: Very well. You have chosen your fallen brother, Sarevok. Together, you must face your destiny.

[Solar opens up the first challenge and vanishes, taking Jonleth with her. Then Sarevok begins his "back to life" speech]


-Jon Irenicus

Solar: Very well. You have chosen the wizard who stole your very soul for his greedy purposes. With him at your side, I wish you luch, Bhaalchild.

[Solar opens up the first challenge and vanishes, taking Sarevok with her]

Jon: So we are to fight together this time. Perhaps I might reach my goal of redemption, with your help.

-I wish neither would join up with me! To the Nine Hells with them, once again!

Solar: Very well. Jonleth. Sarevok. I am to send you back into the Nine Hells.

[Solar opens up the first challenge and vanishes, taking Sarevok and Jonleth with her]
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#6 dorotea

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 06:40 PM

Lovely piece of dialog - I really liked it. But don't you think having them both in the party bickering all the time, throwing accusations and remembering each one's respective time in the Abyss would be even more delicious? B)

By the way - Sarry and Jon-Jon never even met each other. Jon only mentions that he discarded Sarevok as a potential soul donor because of his lowly intellect , or something to this account. (No offence to Sarevok lovers) I love their exchange about iron crisis in Ascension. Too bad I could not keep it with other dialogs in the way.

What I can see as a potential serios conflict is actually Jaheira in the party and her romance. One thing to have Jon-Jon for a short time in the Throne of Blood, quite another to drag him out of Hell and across the Realms in order to help him redeem himself. She may throw a riot.

To that account so can Imoen and Minsc (although Minscy is just to mellow to deny someone his redemption.)

Ah! I can think of a thousand ways to play these conflicts. And Imoen and Jonny boy can finally settle the score over her treatment at his hands. Nobody knows for sure if he molested her or *just* tortured ...

Anybody has any more ideas on the matter? I am thinking about pinning this thread - it is getting interesting.
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#7 Caedwyr

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 11:15 PM

You could get around the initial problem by not telling the party who the young elf you pick up in the abyss is, or limiting which NPCs know the true identity.
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#8 dorotea

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 09:06 AM

You could get around the initial problem by not telling the party who the young elf you pick up in the abyss is, or limiting which NPCs know the true identity.


Actually the more I think about it the more I want to keep Jon 'unredeemed' till the end of ToB. So that he can have his 'spectacular' punishment after the final battle with Melissan. It is hard to switch gears - you see. I am too deeply involved into writing Ashes to start thinking in entirely opposite direction. So, maybe you will settle into keeping him in the party in his old avatar ( ie masked and with an old paperdoll) through entire ToB? And with his memory intact, so that the ending of the Redemption will still be valid? I know it is tempting to have him as a 'reformed' pretty looking elf, but the more I contemplate it the less believable this scheme sounds to me ... I may think about writing a mod that will happen 'after' the end ToB. But it sounds like a humangous work.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#9 Caedwyr

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Posted 22 March 2003 - 12:22 PM

Well the storyline you lay out in Bitter Grey Ashes is very good, so if you want to keep the mods consistent to that storyline its fine by me. The comments Imoen makes to Jon in Hell always struck me as harsh but true. Her telling Jon that when the final confrontation comes around, the only friends he can turn to are demons, always made me feel a bit sorry for him.


About a mod taking place after TOB: I'd love to see the plotline of Bitter Grey Ashes converted into a playable form, with Joneleth as the protagonist.
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#10 dorotea

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Posted 23 March 2003 - 11:43 AM

Her telling Jon that when the final confrontation comes around, the only friends he can turn to are demons, always made me feel a bit sorry for him.


Oh yes... and the whole final animation movie with him falling into the Abyss tortured by demons. Let's just say it left me at first slightly uncomfortable, and later truly disturbed. Which eventually resulted in writing Redemption and Ashes ...

I am not discarding the idea of early Redemption by the way. This mod definitely sounds like something I would like to do - the questionis so far the exact plotline and timing.

Same goes for after ToB mod with Jon a 1st level main character. Using Infinity Engine maybe a bit tricky, unless someone would come with a good map editor that would be compatible with WEIDU.

And I honestly think that NWN engine sucks, for several reasons. I tried to look into making NWN mod - but it feels alien.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#11 evildevil

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Posted 01 April 2003 - 05:59 PM

I've always thought those demons were Kobolds...
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#12 Caedwyr

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Posted 01 April 2003 - 06:25 PM

Same goes for after ToB mod with Jon a 1st level main character. Using Infinity Engine maybe a bit tricky, unless someone would come with a good map editor that would be compatible with WEIDU.

I believe Triangle is working on developing a map editing tool/updater that will be compatible with WEIDU. Check out this thread for more info.
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#13 Userunfriendly

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Posted 01 April 2003 - 10:20 PM

this is very interesting...but think of it this way...charname has gathered powerful and willful npc's by his her side...the whole point of adventuring is to be the leader, the one who controls powerful allies because you need powerful friends to destroy powerful enemies...

so in a sense, charname is looking for strong tools, and you dont have to like someone to work well with them....so the question of taking jon simply might be realpolitik, knowing the challenges ahead of you will be so great that even a traitor, but a most powerful traitor indeed will be useful is undeniable....and charname might feel confident enough that if he turns traitor again he can be slapped down just as easily...

like accepting a mighty and powerful weapon with a barbed and poisoned needle in the grip...never quite knowing if or when the weapon will turn on you, but needing its strength to accomplish your goals...

pc: aerie, imoen, jahiera, please, lets talk...i know we all hate joneleth, and he is a traitor and never ever to be trusted, but he is the mightiest mage we have ever known, and soon we shall confront my renegade siblings, each a figure of dread and might...shall we accept him into the party or no???

jahiera: he is not to be trusted, he is a poisoned viper in our midst, you must weigh his usefulness against the possibility of treachery....and i absolutely insist on a geas spell, and even then i shall watch for the slightest sign of treachery and shall strike him down if he turns against us...in khalid's name!!

aerie:ddddooo wwwee haaave to take him with us? he frightens me more than any of the monsters we have met...beloved, are you sure you want to do this???

imoen: i ....

pc: imoen, the decision is yours, if you hate him too much, i shall not accept him....quite simply, he is the most powerful ally we could get to face our foes, but i love you sis, and if you think the dangers are too great, we just wont take him..


the good members of the party would have very definate reservations and possibly accepting him should be impossible with jahiera in the party, and possibly imoen....jon hurt each of them too much for them to ever accept him....but imoen might be able to see past the pain inflicted, and she loves her sis brother too much to throw away such a useful tool for her sake...

and i guess i am suggesting that jon start out as a very powerful npc indeed, enough to tempt any party into taking him...

like undroppable gloves of wonder used by jon in hell, the ones that give perminent g acuity...hehhehehheheh.....
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#14 wizard of thay

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Posted 02 April 2003 - 03:02 AM

I once had an idea however my modding talents were well... limited and so the idea was dropped but I will throw it in to see what anyone thinks.
Irenicus plan was to retrieve his soul/ ascend to godhood
He also made clones of his beloved .
wouldn't it then be logical to assume he made clones of himself and experimened on them, possible brutally in order to disover the fault within him.
which leaves us with a clone of jon probabbly low level as he would not want anyone to be able to compete with him. and stripped of their memory.
the PC encounters them and takes them into the group
which leads to a number of interesting questions
is this irenicus responsible for the actions of the other irenicus. is he predestined to fall to evil.
conversations with the PC can shape his destiny.
which leads us to the how to link this into redemption without screwing up the original plotline, and I have given this a bit of thought.
in the final battle melissan uses the clone ienicus and gives him the full memories/soul of the original irenicus.
a slightly extended dialogue tree would have to encompass
1) you treated the clone like rubblish and he wants revenge.
2) you treated him well, he rejects mellisan and his original soul and stays with you
3) the original redemption storyline.
hope you enjoyed my ranting.
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Posted 02 April 2003 - 01:20 PM

Same goes for after ToB mod with Jon a 1st level main character. Using Infinity Engine maybe a bit tricky, unless someone would come with a good map editor that would be compatible with WEIDU.

How do you mean "map edior"? If you're talking about areas, then there's no problem with creating them in IETME and simply copying them over with a WeiDU install. On the other hand, if you mean worldmap, then Triangle's progress is probably something to follow.

#16 dorotea

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Posted 02 April 2003 - 10:48 PM

It seems we have a lot of activity in this forum yet again. Thanks for the input folks! I shall definitely look into these links. I am fairly good at Weidu coding (though no ninja) but not good at all at map editing and peripherals. With Redemption I had some solid help. Still, I think that most important would be to actually write the plot and the dialogs and so far I am only musing on the topic, as my time is divided between Edwin romance and writing Ashes. Still, I am sure one of these day you will post something really awesome here and I will not be able to resist the idea. :)

I actually liked the 'clones' plot, but somehow prefer to keep Jon the way he is - a tortured soul (or whatever part of it that is still left of him) stuck in Hell and not his bio-engineered clone, as I feel his experience in the Abyss is imperative to his redemption.

Maybe the soul is a complex structure and some part of it that contains personality and logical thinking is simply indestructible.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#17 Userunfriendly

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Posted 03 April 2003 - 12:54 AM

"Maybe the soul is a complex structure and some part of it that contains personality and logical thinking is simply indestructible. "

have you ever read that larry niven novel, where the plot was that memory and personality is actually encoded in a person's rna, and if you extract it somehow, and inject it into a living being, he/she could become the doner personality???

or in children of dune, the ghola(clone) of duncan idaho was able to recover the life experiences and personality of the original duncan, who was dead???

there has long been speculation that memory may be genetic in nature, the so called "ancestrial memory"....

so if a clone of irenicus is made, one of the quests in the game, like say around saradush, the clone recovers his memory as irenicus, and now comes the angst...

clone: WHO am i? am i some echo, some replica of joneleth, or am i my own person??? i remember being joneleth, but i also remember being born in a tube of glass, and pain and suffering beyond endurance at the hand of my revered progenator (heavy sarcasm here) and years of soul searing suffering at the mad hand of my parent or myself, i am not sure which term is correct...and i remember your hand reaching for mine, charname, all the kindness and gentleness i have ever known i had from you, charname, and aerie, and imoen, and jahiera and minsc...but i also remeber growing up in suldenassar, mastering the powers of magic, and loving elsime and becoming corrupted by the power...who or what am i??

pc: you can only answer that question yourself, jon....we each of us create our own selves, and in the final analysis, YOU decide what you are, are you the beloved friend and companion we have shared our travels with, the strong brother we trust to guard our backs, or are you the viper in our midst, who will strike when the grim demon in irenicus's soul breaks its chains???

clone: but thats what i dont understand, a person, you have told me, is composed of many many parts, each of which fuses into the whole to become the true sum of the personality, the sum being greater than the parts...

pc: yes, but at some point, you must decide for yourself which aspects of your personality will become you, and what parts you find ugly and needs control, lest it corrupt the rest of you...

sounds good???
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#18 Userunfriendly

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Posted 03 April 2003 - 01:09 AM

so the redemption mod itself could be enourmously deepened, its not so much irenicus at the 11th hour seeking a way to redeem his horrible punishment, its his clone, who originally started out in dungeon 1, who becomes a member of the party, all unknowing who he was, traveling with them, becoming a trusted member, then somewhere in the game, he recovers his memory, and this begs the philosophical question...

is he, a copy responsible for the deeds of the original....

or is he his own person, with his own destiny in his own hands...

and how much can a lifetime of memories as another person "override" the personality that has formed over the course of their travels????

at some point the clone must choose who he is, a mere reflection in a smoky mirror or can the clone become a focused personality of its own enough to control the memories of being a monster???

and now the final battle becomes a struggle for the clone to overcome his past, to finally purge himself of the filth and corruption he feels fouls his very existance and fight to become a new and different person with his new destiny and individuality...

really a redemption...

and of course with regaining his memorys, he gains great power, making him much more powerful an ally for the final battles....

with great pain comes great power....

a slightly different version of the quote..
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#19 adam_2112

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Posted 03 April 2003 - 01:42 AM

I would just like to say that the clone idea sounds very good and I really like what user has said.

By the way I would like to congradulate dorotea for making a wonderful mod and I hope you do well with the edwin mod romance mod.
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#20 Seifer

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Posted 03 April 2003 - 03:39 AM

Edwin will be a good mod I'm sure if the quality of dialogue is retained!

In regards to the clone aspect, there are many feasible directions that can be used to justify the soul being there, just as many abound abount language and communication etc. Psychology has shown me that at least!

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