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What would YOU like to see in the NPC Interaction Expansion Project?


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#21 Kaeloree

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 03:13 PM

Yeah - we won't be bringing back Yoshimo, tempting as it may be. This is the NPC Interaction Expansion project, not the Yoshimo Redemption project.

HOWEVER.

If someone would like to write and code such a project, I would not be at all averse to have it included in the pack! Everything will be in separate components, so you don't have to choose to redeem him.

The problem with Yoshimo is that he has no ToB banter, nor any banter after Spellhold (obviously) - so if someone would like to take it on, it means writing at least 32 banters for ToB (2 with each NPC), 7-8 PC dialogues, the rest of the SoA interjections, all the ToB interjections... It's a lot of work!

But if someone with a very firm grip of his character wants to take it on, and the idea is sound, then I'd be happy to include it. The main thing is that it must keep the tragedy of Yoshimo's story - we felt that all the ideas we could come up with cheapened it. If you can think of a way to do it without cheapening his death and sacrifice for his sister, well... :)

#22 berelinde

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 04:19 PM

I'm not sure Yoshimo's connection with Tamoko was not added by a mod. I don't seem to recall it in an unmodified game, but then, it's been so long since I've played an unmodified game that I'm not even sure I remember what it looked like anymore.

One way or the other, though, the relationship between them has been established.

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#23 Kulyok

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 11:29 PM

The problem with Yoshimo is that he has no ToB banter, nor any banter after Spellhold (obviously) - so if someone would like to take it on, it means writing at least 32 banters for ToB (2 with each NPC)


Why? Neither Kelsey nor Xan nor any existing NPC(probably) has that, and even with Banter Accelerator, they won't have time to fire - unless it is scripted a-la Kelsey Imoen romance.



I'm not sure Yoshimo's connection with Tamoko was not added by a mod. I don't seem to recall it in an unmodified game, but then, it's been so long since I've played an unmodified game that I'm not even sure I remember what it looked like anymore.


It's Bioware-confirmed she was his sister(Gaider).

#24 Kaeloree

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 11:39 PM

Er, I meant 32 banters all up - 2 with each NPC, which is quite reasonable, I would have thought. In game, of course, you would only be seeing 8 banters each playthrough, and I see that in my game.

Yeah, as Kulyok said, it has been confirmed by Gaider :)

#25 Kulyok

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 11:55 PM

Er, I meant 32 banters all up - 2 with each NPC, which is quite reasonable, I would have thought. In game, of course, you would only be seeing 8 banters each playthrough, and I see that in my game.


Yes, that's what I meant: to me, there's no sense in writing more than one ToB banter for each NPC, unless it is a scripted friendship/romance path.

#26 XzPePijNzX

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 12:39 AM

The problem with Yoshimo is that he has no ToB banter, nor any banter after Spellhold (obviously) - so if someone would like to take it on, it means writing at least 32 banters for ToB (2 with each NPC)


Why? Neither Kelsey nor Xan nor any existing NPC(probably) has that, and even with Banter Accelerator, they won't have time to fire - unless it is scripted a-la Kelsey Imoen romance.



I'm not sure Yoshimo's connection with Tamoko was not added by a mod. I don't seem to recall it in an unmodified game, but then, it's been so long since I've played an unmodified game that I'm not even sure I remember what it looked like anymore.


It's Bioware-confirmed she was his sister(Gaider).

And she was a helper of sarevok. *AND* you get to fight here during the pocket plane tests.
Now if Sarevok can come back, why can't she, and why can't Yoshimo.

And even Bioware almost wanted to bring the guy back. But yeah, it would be alot of work seeing he has 0,0 interjections after spellhold and TOB, same goes for his banters, making him as boring as any multiplayer created NPC.

#27 Kulyok

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 01:17 AM

And even Bioware almost wanted to bring the guy back. But yeah, it would be alot of work seeing he has 0,0 interjections after spellhold and TOB, same goes for his banters, making him as boring as any multiplayer created NPC.


I don't know about a lot of work, but it is possible to create a Bioware-comparable NPC in a week(see Hessa now or Tiax soon). Unless you wish to make him romance PC, be compatible with Keto and other mods and have at least four quests, a week, two on the outside, is more than enough.

Edited by Kulyok, 25 January 2007 - 01:18 AM.


#28 Hide and Seek

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 03:39 AM

I know you're not gonna bring Yoshimo back, but I just have to ask about the conditions when you die from a Geas. When the Geas have been activated, it hurt and kills the one who has it placed upon him or herself. Does it remain there, in case the NPC should be revived, and kills them again at an instant? Or is it just not possible to ressurect someone who has been killed by a Geas?
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#29 XzPePijNzX

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 05:00 AM

Hmm going into the replys of all. I came up with this idea that might lay a good base on Yoshimo's revival, should any project be added.

Now as we all know Sarevok and Tamoko. Yoshimo originally believed that <CHARNAME> (i love saying that) killed poor Tamoko. Because of that, he swore to kill <CHARNAME> with a geas, killing him should he help <CHARNAME> or betray irenicus.
Of course some deaths couldn't be avoided by a simple raise dead spell. And just like Sarevok, Yoshimo seemed lost forever.
Seemed here goes for Sarevok. as in ToB, Sarevok makes his appearance back in your pocket plane, asking <CHARNAME> (or imoen) to revive him.
Now, Sarevok could be raised even when his body was missing, simply by the soul of his sibling. Which is <CHARNAME> or Imoen, seeing they all are children of bhaal.
Now, what does this have to do with Yoshimo? Now here you go. Why couldn't Yoshimo's wraith be revived same as Sarevok, simply by the blood of his sibling. Or more directly, by the soul of Tamoko, his sister.
the indirect reason for his geas with irenicus and Yoshimo's unlucky end, could have the power to revive him once more, if only <CHARNAME> could find and convice her.

There goes the base for your story...

#30 berelinde

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 05:49 AM

I'm not sure Yoshimo's connection with Tamoko was not added by a mod. I don't seem to recall it in an unmodified game, but then, it's been so long since I've played an unmodified game that I'm not even sure I remember what it looked like anymore.


It's Bioware-confirmed she was his sister(Gaider).


I'm not arguing that. I know that it was intended, and it was certainly hinted, but I don't know if it was ever spelled out. That isn't to say it shouldn't be included in IEP, in fact, I think it should be brought to the fore. I'm just saying that it needs to be subtly emphasized, because it is, in fact, not as blatantly obvious as it could have been.

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#31 Witch Hunter

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 07:44 AM

Now, Sarevok could be raised even when his body was missing, simply by the soul of his sibling. Which is <CHARNAME> or Imoen, seeing they all are children of bhaal.
Now, what does this have to do with Yoshimo? Now here you go. Why couldn't Yoshimo's wraith be revived same as Sarevok, simply by the blood of his sibling. Or more directly, by the soul of Tamoko, his sister.
the indirect reason for his geas with irenicus and Yoshimo's unlucky end, could have the power to revive him once more, if only <CHARNAME> could find and convice her.



That's all nice and well but you overlook the fact Sarevok was a demigod when he died, it's been mentioned countless times and again that he was among the strongest bhaalspawns at his time...
Plus, his brother, the infamous CHARNAME, is practicly a demigod (not only by blood, but by actual level and power) by the time he raises him, his powers are formidable (a fact we tend to overlook because he always fights someone stronger than him, but seriously, he can single handly destroy a city ;p!)
and the whole no geas thing...




Regardless, why is everyone so thrilled over Yoshimo? he's one of the worst NPCs in the game o_0
I much rather Jan as a thief (and as a companion, he's much more funny)

Edited by Witch Hunter, 25 January 2007 - 07:46 AM.


#32 XzPePijNzX

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 08:36 AM

...and as he died lost all power with him, which means that his power in any former live would be rendered useless...


and there's this scroll of reversal which you obtain in abazigal's lair which destroys a geas. Now script has it that this scroll has no purpose but to set the global GeasCured to 1 and advance the quest further. But, staying in 3rd edition D&D rules, a geas hereby could be broken...

EDIT: excuse my careless words. I figured my references were never put into the game by Bioware. Like yoshimo's raising, the diary that you get from yoshimo is added by the unfinished business mod (for those that dont know: It adds the stuff that was originally started by bioware, but never got shipped with the game).

Clearly bioware removed all hints to yoshimo's past.

Edited by XzPePijNzX, 25 January 2007 - 10:09 AM.


#33 Witch Hunter

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 10:23 AM

because clearly they thought he was boring too :P

jokes jokes...


And you understood me wrong, Sarevok was a powerful being when he died, regardless of losing his divine status or not, Yoshimo was a rather lousy rogue... :P as Sarevok mentioned, he scratched and crawled his way back into the world of the living... I doubt Yoshimo could do much in wherever afterlife took him :P

And theres still the divine spark in CHARNAME's soul that brought him back to life, I doubt a normal one would do!

#34 XzPePijNzX

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 11:20 AM

well assuming yoshimo is still lying in spellhold, you could also cut all the depth and just use a raise death spell and a scroll of reversal and skip the scratching and crawling part, and the souls as well
but this makes the story so boring...

#35 Witch Hunter

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 02:03 PM

scrolls of reversal aren't meant to be common :o

#36 XzPePijNzX

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 02:45 PM

Oooh.... Shiny ones.
Not a thing to name, or cespenar can make it!

I think the overall sense of this discussion is dropping to dangerously low levels

#37 Witch Hunter

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 08:30 PM

Well you should think twice before bringing cespenar into a conversation next time!


:P

#38 vilkacis

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 11:16 PM

At ToB levels, it wouldn't be much of a problem to get Yoshimo back, even if he's been dead a while by the time you get there. All you need is a spell the game already provides - Wish. About two or three of them should do it.

1) Restore Yoshimo's body. (So he's not returned just to die again because the body can't support life.) Or create a new one, if necessary.
2) Restore Yoshimo's spirit to said body. (You might be able to combine #1 and #2 if you're smart enough.)
Optionally: 3) Break geas. (Probably not needed, the geas is likely spent after doing its job.)

...of course, in PnP, casting Wish will age you several years and force you to rest for days before you can do anything else, which ToB conveniently "forgets".

(...IIRC even Limited Wish is enough to get rid of a geas, which means that a PC with access to the spell at Spellhold would be able to free Yoshimo, put him back in the party and be on his merry way without further problems...)

Oh, and a clever PC might actually be able to get someone else to do the wishing for him. Ellesime should definitely be able to have it arranged, if asked. She definitely owes the party as much.


As for Tamoko, I think we definitely need to have Sarevok and the PC talk about her. I don't believe there's a way to detect if she died BG1, even if the mainchar was imported, but it could certainly be interesting if the PC states that he didn't kill her. (This doesn't necessarily mean she's still alive, of course... and Sarevok may or may not believe you.)

...it's been a while since I played BG1... I'm not sure if it's clear that Sarevok actually cares about her, or just keeps her around for other reasons...

#39 XzPePijNzX

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Posted 25 January 2007 - 11:43 PM

If we forget the fact that wish actually has no scripted function other then 20 or so options randomly picked by wisdom level, then we must also forget the fact that the if-then blocks trigger exactly when you arrive on said spot (so if irenicus is feeding of the tree of live, he'll always be ALMOST done when you stopped him)

Coming with that means that you don't have years to formulate your wish, seeing people might come and look for you.

#40 -guest-

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 08:26 PM

I think it would be nice to see a finished Imoen mod, with romance, banter, etc included. Both the options for an evil-crazy-vengeful path (eternal hatred for male magicians or something like that) and a good-jovial-"i accept what has happened to me, and it has made me stronger" kind of attitude (both romanceable).

It would be nice to see other NPC's bantering and helping her choose her way, as well as the PC initiated conversations. Like, if your PC is evil, and so is your party she'll most likely choose the evil path, and vice versa.

And I think that if the same format is used to develop the conversations with other NPCs then a huge mod including romances, and path selections for other NPCs could be created avoiding any complications. I think most of the people that replay BG2 or 1 usually have one of the NPCs in mind for romancing, so it would be easy to just install the portion of the mod you want, thus avoiding unnecesary complications.

For example:

Situation I: Player choses Imoen mod over ... Jaheyra mod.

Imoen is romanced and Jaheyra is constantly envious, or perhaps angry, and that influences in the way she answers to Imoens conversations, plus she'll want to get her on the opposite path you're in.

Situation II: Player choses Jaheyra mod over Imoen mod.

Imoen will be supportive and will never lose her "im your sibling" POV, Jaheyra will try and help Imoen get into the same path you're in, etc.

The benefit of limiting the available romances to one, I think is truly a time saver, and it simplifies everything. Further work can then be done to merge all mods, but I think this is a lighter proposition than trying to accomplish some huge mod.