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Help needed with Prophecy


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#1 Mistress Elysia

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 03:21 AM

I am currently writing a set of ToB dialogues that are based solely around Alaundo's prophecy and what the PC already knows about bhaalspawn. Although I have played the games through more times that I would care to think about (or admit), the actual amount of information that is common knowledge about the various bhaalspawn is a little hazy (either that or I've forgotten...). We find out more as players due to dramatic irony, but sometimes it's hard to figure out what the PC does and doesn't know!

So, at the risk of sounding stupid...

Before the Solar fills us in with the whole 'this is your mother' stuff and tells us that her duty was to slay her own babe, does the PC have any inkling that the reason for the bhaalspawns' creation was so that Bhaal himself could gather their 'essence' and resurrect himself? And therefore, is the PC aware that with the destruction of Saradush, a lot more of Bhaal's essence has returned in one foul swoop?

On one hand I think not - if the PC knew, then I would like to think that he/she would comment on this (and be a little wiser when defeating the 5, because they would know what they were doing!). On the other hand (and this is where I don't know if I'm getting what I am told as a player confused with what my PC knows) I am pretty sure I remember things being mentioned about it in BG1... so, if anyone could outline in easy to read, monosyllabic words what the PC definitely DOES know about the prophecy and bhaalspawn, I'd be eternally grateful (and prevent myself from making a complete tit of myself...)

This probably a really stupid question, but due to old age addling my brain, I just can't remember what the actual case is!

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#2 Magnus_025

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 07:07 AM

I didn't finish Baldur's Gate I, but I played it almost till its end. I don't remember much about it though but I believe that what Pc knows about Bhaal and Alaundo's prophecy is just the same thing that us, as players, know. Let's say, almost anything.
In Bioware's romances, one of the common topics between you and your love is about what is going to happen after everything ends, so if Pc knew something, he would surely say something about that. The responses that you can give are mostly two: "don't worry, I'll be with you" or "I'll get whatever power I can because I deserve it"
So if Pc knew that after killing each one of the five he is actually aproaching Bhaal to his resurrection, he/she would surely stop and think things twice.
Even Sarevok, who is more informed about all Bhaal stuff, doesn't know about how everything is going "exactly" to end.

Edited by Magnus_025, 06 January 2007 - 07:09 AM.

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#3 -A. Lurker Esq.-

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:57 AM

In a word: Yes. She/he talks about it with Cernd in Shadow of Amn, who can be told that the PC is fuel, nothing more. There's no doubt the PC is aware of Bhaal's intent.

#4 Mistress Elysia

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:02 AM

Thanks for your help!

I have to admit, I always took it that the PC was largely unaware of the consequences of his/her heritage... after all the Bhaalspawn that perish in Saradush, *surely* something would have been said along the lines of 'whoops, there goes the neighbourhood - now Bhaal has a hell of a lot more of his essense back!' (attitude and emphasis differing if you're good / evil). There again, it never was a if ToB ever really made any sense...

Although, if the common consensus is that the PC does indeed know, then it does open up a huge largely untapped resource for dialogue opportunities... :)

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#5 berelinde

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:03 AM

Do not mistake what you are told in BG1 for what you are assumed to know in BG2: they are completely different.

In BG1, your mother was Gorion's sometime lover. In ToB, she was a priestess of Bhaal. Somehow, I don't think Gorion liked his ladies *that* naughty.

I think the developers' explanation for the disparity was simple. They forgot.

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#6 Mistress Elysia

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 11:38 AM

Yeah - I know that one... really, really annoying. Especially when you're trying to write dialogues that have some level of depth to them regarding what is going on around you! (And you want to write one regarding the PC's mother... <_< )

This is the main problem I'm facing right now - so many conflicting ideas over the 3 games. I have to say, regarding the storyline, they really dropped the ball in ToB... I mean, I always knew it was creaky, but until I started seriously trying to write dialogues based off the very serious things going on around you, I never really just how creaky it actually was. No wonder none of their NPCs really mention anything... :rolleyes:

I may post up the dialogue for proofreading... that will help me gauge if I've got things at least kind of 'right'. Whatever 'right' is!

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#7 Hide and Seek

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 01:30 PM

I always assumed Gorion lied. When the young naive PC asked him about his mother, should Gorion have told him then? "Your mother was a priestess of Bhaal that was going to kill you." I think Gorion would have waited until the PC was a little more ready. Which makes me wonder, what was Gorions intentions with the PC? How much did he know about the PCs role in the prophecy? He did say that he only had time to take one child, and he chose the PC, not Sarevok. So he no idea that the PC was the one set to stop the Five.

Here's another thing.
I assume, in BG, that the PC gather some information from the dreams of his, where he or she turns from the obvious path and takes the difficult, gives Mulaheys (spelling?) ghost mercy, encounters a dagger of bone, sees rivers or oceans of blood, and gets swallowed by the earth after falling from the sky. When awake, he or she had another Bhaal power, so the PC have obviously learned something. When confronting Sarevok in the old temple, isn't there an option that makes the PC tell something about how he or she and Sarevok should fight Bhaal together? "I can feel him" or something like that. The PC is aware of Bhaal's intent here, Sarevok is not, or he doesn't care. As for the intro of BGII telling that there was people who assumed you shared the same lineage as Sarevok. How much did these people know, and what has the PC found out about Bhaal since BG? I don't think Bhaal would leave any evidence about how he planned to return, it was Alaundo, ordered by the Solars (or Gods, even?) started the prophecy. There really are ALOT of people involved in this.
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#8 Pain Elemental

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 01:22 AM

The first thing that enters my mind is Chranames dialogs with Sarevok at the end of SoA (Hell Trails) and at the start of TOB. Although Charname gained a lot of information during BG1 and BG2, he probes Sarevok about the Alaundo prophecy.

My guess is that at the start of TOB, Charname should know most aspects of the prophecy. Perhaps missing a few details whomget revealed later on the game. (Mother/Priestress).
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#9 Anaximander

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 07:51 PM

How does the whole prophecy go, anyway? The only part of it I can remember is this: "The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his wake he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sewn in their footsteps." I assume there must be more to it than just that. I mean, those two little sentences really don't tell us much at all. There will be Bhaalspawn. They will spread chaos. Thanks for the heads up there, Aluando. What about that drivel that the talking rock spouts at you at the start of ToB? Is that part of Aluando's prophecy, or something else entirely?

Even if the PC never read any of it, there are other clues. I think the most significant ones are the dreams that occur in BG1. Two in particular come to mind: In one, a dagger of bone strikes a statue of you. The statue cracks, and you feel as if your very soul is being rent assunder. As you awaken, a lingering voice tells you "You will learn." Later, in another, you exert your will on a sea of blood and take control of it. Something objects. A powerful wave knocks you down, and you get pulled beneath the surface.

The statue in the first dream is your soul. Someone or something has a hold on it and plans to use it for their own purposes. The sea of blood in the other dream is actually the essence of Bhaal. You try to control it, and Bhaal objects. You get pulled under the surface - absorbed or consumed by the essence of Bhaal.

You were bred to feed the essence of Bhaal. You may not know why, exactly, but you can probably guess.
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#10 Kellen

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Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:46 PM

"You're not sure which is your greater fear, loosing your life to feed the fire, or loosing your will and becoming it." From one of the video's (I think ToB) (Not exact quote)
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#11 Hide and Seek

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 12:37 PM

"You're not sure which is your greater fear, loosing your life to feed the fire, or loosing your will and becoming it." From one of the video's (I think ToB) (Not exact quote)

Come to think of it, in ToB, isn't the PC told about the prophecy from the future PC?
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#12 Lord Kain

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 12:00 PM

Do not mistake what you are told in BG1 for what you are assumed to know in BG2: they are completely different.

In BG1, your mother was Gorion's sometime lover. In ToB, she was a priestess of Bhaal. Somehow, I don't think Gorion liked his ladies *that* naughty.

I think the developers' explanation for the disparity was simple. They forgot.


Do not mistake that for the truth either, Gorion hid the truth of your father from you do you not think he'd hide the truth of your mother? I hate it when people assume the first thing your told must be the truth lies and deception are a part of life.
You could play BG1 a dozen times and never see mention of the PC's mother. Its mentioned in one or two sentences.
The throne of bhaal mother makes much more sense then the BG1 version anyway.

Alaundo made alot of prophecy's he was like Nostradamus, he wrote nine volumes of prophecy's about the fate of the realms.

At the start of ToB the PC knows the bhaalspawn are the key to the fathers return. He does not know that he is of any great importance over the others.

He does know that Sarevok hoped to become the new lord of murder. So he and the other party members can suspect he may become a god for good or ill by the end of this.

Korgan appears figures out that you may become a god before this is done and questions you on it, as does Viconia.
So its safe for Fade to come to the conclusion she may lose the PC to divinity.

#13 Solar's Harper

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 02:38 AM

The Bhaalspawn storyline has always been a little confusing, what with the variations caused by the short time periods for game releases of BG 1 and 2 plus the change in some of the crew that wrote up all this stuff.

As far as the prophecy goes, the PC is central to the events because s\he is less of a probable risk than what if Sarevok, or any of the Five (perhaps excluding Balthazzar) would pose if they had their way, for good or ill reasons. One gap I've found very annoying is how did Gorion pickup Imoen who according to the BG2 biography says she arrived at Candlekeep the same time as you, and you were both 10 at that stage; the opposite BG1 biography states you and Gorion had lived at Candlekeep, and as far as this mod goes I got to wonder what part she'd play between the PC and Fade, after all she is your half-sister, both in blood and in behaviour.

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#14 -Starwalker-

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 12:20 AM

Actually. Both Imoen and the main character from BG1 enter candle keep at about the age of 3 or 4. There is a lot in BG1 and even BG2 that supports this. Various tales from different NPC's about when you were toddlers or children or the like that doesn't fit this idea that your age 10 and Up.

Now something to keep in mind. in BG1 the story of your mother actually fits very well. There is a very small piece I think when you confront your mothers ghost that you find out that Gorion and the main chars mother were indeed lovers. It's a matter of dialog options which messes it up alot.

ToB has another added problem that Sarevok is somehow older than all of the other children at the time Gorion and the Harpers hit the place the children are kept and Gorion takes the main char. Further making ToB's version of things flimsier not only because of Sarevok but also Imoen. There is no way Imoen could show up at the same time as the main character if only one was saved and the choice was between Sarevok and the main character. An Option that only comes up in side talks with Sarevok himself.

The BG1 story is solid. Bhaal forced himself on various women over a time period to spread his progeny. This covers the age differences in the characters. This fits both Sarevok's extensive background story in BG1 about his mother and his hatred of his "Father" (not Bhaal). The fact that the matter of the PC's mother being forced is backed up by the note when you return to Candle Keep that is Gorion revealing the truth to you about what's happened.

The story holds up not only from this note and various little dialogs written throughout the game if you talk to many of the PC's at all tied to such events but is held up by various things like Sarevok himself and his belief that he would have attained Bhaal's power. Something he expects the PC to do if you accept him in the start of ToB. There is also his diary. Certain people around him and major factors in BG2 itself such as Irenicus trying to steal parts of bhaal's power from his spawn.

As for the Prophesy. The outcome isn't really spoken of until ToB. The ToB ending to the whole matter and the PC's role doesn't really fit the rest of it. And even Mellisan believes that she can steal Bhaal's power although the idea is heavily corrupted by other knowledge by the time you get to her. The Prophesy is also something that the character knows fairly well growing up in Candle Keep. Candle Keep was founded by Alaundo and they wouldn't have left details out of it that causes the ToB part of things to fall apart even more since the PC doesn't know until you get half way through ToB. There is also the fact that Sarevok knew the prophesy forwards and backwards by memory. he's noted a couple times in BG 1 for having been reciting the prophesy without reading it from a book. He would have known the outcome if anybody did. Somewhere in BG 1 he'd have somehow mentioned it to the PC. He did everything else. If not he would have told the PC in the beginning of ToB and he doesn't.

It's not BG 1 that really makes the whole thing confusing and breaks down the matter of the prophesies and the Bhaalspawn. They are less talked about in BG2 but what little is mostly supports the BG 1 story. The real problem is when you get into ToB and our player knowledge of ToB. It doesn't fit the rest of the story about the matter in the least and BG2 isn't exactly focused on the bhaal spawn issue which doesn't help the confusion or the disparity issue between BG1 and ToB

#15 Pandæmonium

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 01:56 AM

Damn you. I thought Miss E. had come back and made a topic.
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Posted 10 June 2008 - 02:30 PM

actually I forget exactly where i read it but Alaundo didn't actually found Candlekeep. His prophecies were written during a time when a great plague was spreading in the realms, his wife and child died from the plague and Alaundo himself became ill with it, it was during his fevered dreams that he wrote the prophecies. (from what i remember this was a reference I found in one of my old 2nd ed FR suppliments, but I can't remember exactly which one) he held on for like a year with the illness and made his way to Candlekeep that was already a well established fortress, and library. His prophecies were a donation to the library, and he died shortly after donating it. It wasn't until the monks there took a closer look at that particular donation that it was revealed they were prophecies.

please keep in mind this is all from memory, so parts of it may be skewed by the fading of time. the parts i'm sure on is that his family died from the plague. He got sick, wrote the prophecies during that time peroid then after they were complete made a pillgramage to Candlekeep to donate them, and died shortly afterwards.