23 replies to this topic

[Salk]

Hello!

I would like to ask your opinion about these four creatures.

Would you think that they could be all classified as Undead ?

Thanks!

[pro5]

Then they will be turnable by clerics.

[OldVeteran]

They aren't dwarves who used to live there per se. They are embodiments of concepts and therefore....well not really living but also not undead.
More like a "divine" presence? Or elemental?

[Azkyroth]

I always thought of them as constructs; spirit-warrior-like magical entities created as part of the tower's trap system.

[Salk]

Thank you for your replies, guys!

What we can say is that all four should belong to the same class, right ?

Undead is not a good class because we don't want them to be turnable (thanks pro5).

What class can we all agree on then ?

I report here their original attributes for General, Race and Class for each of them (taken from NI). It's easy to see it's screwed up:

Pride: GENERAL: HUMANOID RACE: DWARF CLASS: FIGHTER
Avarice: GENERAL: HUMANOID RACE: DWARF CLASS: MAGE-THIEF
Fear: GENERAL: UNDEAD RACE: GHOUL CLASS: GHOUL REVEANT
Love: GENERAL: HUMANOID RACE: DWARF CLASS: MAGE

Also, their alignement is set to None (0). Would you think "Neutral" should be better ?

Please if you have specific suggestions, add your comment and motivations here!

I do appreciate it!!

Thanks again, guys!

Edited by Salk, 09 February 2007 - 11:22 PM.

[Miloch]

Funnily enough, I'm also changing these CREs in a mod I'm working on. I never noticed their class/race though.

I'd agree with Azkyroth in that they're constructs of some sort, a bit like golems. Maybe the ancient dwarves built them, probably out of metal, judging by their colour. So I would suggest changing the values to:
General: 0x1 humanoid (I guess - they're dwarf-sized anyway)
Race: 0x90 golem
Class: 0xb6 golem_iron
Alignment: 0x22 neutral

Their proficiencies are off a bit too (this is something I'm modding).

Salk, if you're doing a lot of this sort of thing in your mod, would you mind PMing me (either here or at G3) a list of CREs you're looking at? I can swap you mine so we don't end up doing duplicate work.

[Grunker]

I'd actually give OldVeteran the right. They aren't made of metal or somesuch, they're embodiments of concepts. That's probably why BI thought it easy to just go with 'dwarf'.

[Miloch]

They aren't made of metal or somesuch...

What evidence do you have for this? I don't see any reason why they can't be constructs or golems *and* the embodiments of concepts at the same time. As for being spirits or elementals of some sort - they seem too material for that. They are using normal weapons and are quite opaque and solid as far as colouring etc. And as for that, the designers didn't seem to be too consistent - two of them have metal-coloured skin and two have flesh-coloured skin. From a gaming perspective, it probably wouldn't make a huge difference. Except if you managed to get your hands on a weapon or spell that affects only dwarves or golems, which I suppose is possible via a mod.

[Rabain]

I always view them as concepts as well. Mainly because the requirements to get past them are not technical in nature. Each riddle requires you understand the nature of each concept in order to successfully bring them the correct answer.

Only someone capable of feeling the different concepts would understand and thus successfully pass. Afterall Durlag himself was duped by some doppelgangers impersonating his family/kin. It only makes sense that he would trap the place to not allow someone in that would not understand all the concepts fully...such as a doppelganger.

[Miloch]

I think everyone agrees they are embodiments of concepts, but unfortunately there is no race or class you can code for "concept." If you don't like the idea they might be golem-like in nature, the next closest things would be "mist" or "elemental" or perhaps "genie." Then you get into the undead races and classes, which would have the turning issue noted above. The warders don't seem particularly mist-like, and elemental would ask for a type (air, fire, earth). Since they don't have the appropriate elemental resistances or other such qualities, any choice there seems rather improbable.

[OldVeteran]

Which is why Aurora is much better in that respect You can pick elemental without specifying what type.

[Miloch]

You can pick elemental without specifying type in IE. But it still begs the question: which element?

[P.S.: Aurora sux. ]

[OldVeteran]

A spiritual element maybe or magical element - it doesn't have to be some very conventional (earth/fire/air/water) type.

Edited by OldVeteran, 13 February 2007 - 01:33 PM.

[Azkyroth]

A spiritual element maybe or magical element - it doesn't have to be some very conventional (earth/fire/air/water) type.

Gee, why not go for "surprise elemental?" O.o

(Someday I'll have to make a point of writing something with elemental beings...hydrogen elementals, oxygen elementals, chlorine elementals, etc.)

Why not use HUMANOID, NO_RACE, and an individually appropriate class?

[Rabain]

It depends what you're trying to do. You can make Undead immune to Turning. You can pretty much make any creature immune to any effect in the game.

Leaving them as dwarves would seem appropriate though you can also have no_race if I recall correctly.

[Grunker]

They aren't made of metal or somesuch...

What evidence do you have for this? I don't see any reason why they can't be constructs or golems *and* the embodiments of concepts at the same time. As for being spirits or elementals of some sort - they seem too material for that. They are using normal weapons and are quite opaque and solid as far as colouring etc. And as for that, the designers didn't seem to be too consistent - two of them have metal-coloured skin and two have flesh-coloured skin. From a gaming perspective, it probably wouldn't make a huge difference. Except if you managed to get your hands on a weapon or spell that affects only dwarves or golems, which I suppose is possible via a mod.

Don't get me wrong, Miloch, I didn't post fact. No one has a hotline to BI, so my guess is as good as yours. I posted what I found to be most true

[Salk]

Hello!

All your suggestions are very interesting (especially Miloch's)!

Thank you very much guys for your help!

[Miloch]

What about the Chessboard piece races? I'm thinking maybe stone or iron golems. I'm leaning toward iron based on the fact they are "steel grey" coloured and my theory that Durlag (or whoever he had build the tower) was a cunning artificer of metal constructs .

Also, should they keep their original classes (fighter, mage, etc.), get kits, or have the classes corresponding to golem too (or something else)?

Sorry for semi-hijacking your thread, Salk, but I saw this was on your list too and I'm working on these pieces for another mod, so you might be interested in the answer (or maybe you have one already).

[OldVeteran]

I'd say stone or clay golems

[Avenger_teambg]

Strange, i always thought of them as demons. Demons could have ANY body, including a golem body, and their spiritual part definitely could be an embodiment of a concept.
I don't think all demons are turnable, even by very high level clerics.