184 replies to this topic

[Mikka]

Elminster did not 'test' Jaheria. The only thing he did was give her the Harper Pin, premoting her to a Senior Harper. What he did was stand back and let fate take the way. I think he did Jaheria a favor more then he hurt her. Through her experiences, Jaheria was able to learn. She also found her love- an event that probably would not have happened if not for the whole Harper issue.


I'm pretty sure I'm going to offend you here, and I'm sorry about that. ^^ I like Edwin a lot better then Elminster myself, too.

But I have to say in the epologue, he got what was coming to him. I know that you love Edwin, and I do to. And we can speculate on his past, and what might have happened to make him become the way he has become- but that doesn't change the fact that he's selfish, ruthless, and evil. We can say that he was a sweet and lovely child until his mother sent him in a portal to Baator, where he was thrown in the Pit of Flame and corrupted for all enternity, and how his father found him and beat him with some sort of longsword of death, doom, and disaster and how the red wizards of thay tramatised him by forcing him to wear red which reminded him of the horrors of his past and... well, you get the idea. We can make excuse after excuse for why Edwin acts the way he does- but that doesn't change the fact that he does. Eliminster has heard Edwin whining about how he wants to kill him for years. Thus, Eliminster gave him what he deserved- Edwin's main fault is his self-absorbed nature and egoistical tendinicies, and now he's lost the two things that made him like that (his pride in his 'manhood' and his magic). Unity of rings. Edwin got what was coming to him, simple as that. He's a (insert word of choice here)- a loveable, adorable bastard, but still a (insert word of choice here).

I'm going to offend you even more, I'm sure, by adding this. I really am sorry about this. But, when writing it's a good idea to try and be careful to not play favorites (too much- I mean, by the very nature of having a protagonist, your already playing favorites, one could say). I, for instance, absolutely loathe Jan. I'de rather write banters where my favorite characters outwit and debase him- but that wouldn't be fair. Jan is extremely witty, and for the most part, can get almost all the game NPC's wrapped up in his stories even as they want to bang their heads against the wall. It's just the way he is- cannon, you could call it. And it's just like Elminster's power. No matter how much we might prefer it, Edwin doesn't have the ability to outsmart him or hurt him. And it's not really right to change one of the most powerful characters of the game (if not the most character in the dang thing) just because you don't like him and what he did to your favorite character. Part of Elminster's personality is that he's a total trickster- he knows how to do a good prank, and how to guard himself against it.

I'm again sorry for saying this. I suppose this is somewhat like a rant. I again apologise.

[Userunfriendly]

well, since i started all this...

my personal problem with elminster is his smug attitude...i have not read forgotten realm books at ALL, so all i have to go on is his game personality...and i simply dont like his judgemental attitude in the game...if you have too low of a rep in the game, he wont give you the harper pin...and just the whole dialog about how jaheira has to justify her actions in support of the party to him just irritates me...and his attitude out side of abzegal's lair, how he seems to act like a sort of smug overseer of your destiny really rubbed me the wrong way...

and i never ever liked "killsw01" type of characters anyway...(except when i am making bun-bun, but thats a whole different story...its just plain evil fun to play a mod if your character is the overpowered one..hehhehhe)

so because i happen to dislike him, i started this thread...i am sure if i started a drizzt bashing thread i will get even more flamed...i started this thread mostly for laughs...and i had some fun with it...

on a personal note, i happen to dislike jan a lot...and laufey knows i like aerie a lot, where she cant stand her...but that doesnt mean i cant enjoy her stories of evil aerie, which are very fun to read...

[dorotea]

on a personal note, i happen to dislike jan a lot...

Grrr. I happen top adore the little sod. Gosh I like him more than my favorite villain Jonny and that tells a lot! I may write Jan's romance just annoy everybody. In which he will take you as his third wife after Lisa and Viconia. LOL!

[Blackmamuth]

Elminster, i dislike the guy really bad, especially ingame, never tried to kill him really; (never tought it's possible ingame), especially the letter he sends to gorion in BG1, come on, he warns the guy to get out of there at night, when in candlekeep you would be somewhat safer, while you get ambushed in the way... yeah, rather suspicious that one, and then you found him the next morning!!! what kind of guy is that? weren't him to be friend with gorion? if he knew about Sarevok plans to kill charname and he was reasonably near, why he didn't do nothing againist him? Really, i always tought that Elminster was the mastermind behind all those histories!!!!

Next time i'll find him i will try the Timestop-shapechange mindflayer... Hey, if it works with Arkanis gath an the guy in the Elven camp, and malchor Harpell, maybe it works with the old ponty hat lover!!!!

[Userunfriendly]

on a personal note, i happen to dislike jan a lot...

Grrr. I happen top adore the little sod. Gosh I like him more than my favorite villain Jonny and that tells a lot! I may write Jan's romance just annoy everybody. In which he will take you as his third wife after Lisa and Viconia. LOL!

i can just imagine any romance about jan would involve the "STEP LADDER OF LOVE"...

jan: will, will you, charname, kiss me?

pc: jan, my sweet turnip truffle, we have a problem...my back is kinda outa whack, when i whacked those trolls yesterday...so i can't kneel down for you...

jan: never fear, my little turnipee...here is the jansen "step ladder of love" for height challenged gnomes who fall in love with the taller races...

jan whips out this folding step ladder contraption which instantly assemble to allow him to kiss charname...

jan: and it doubles as a handy turnip peeler, too...

pc: oh my brilliant and so clever lover, (and so good in the sack too...you know what they say about the nose size....wheeee!!!!) hey, it even has wheels so we can dance cheek to cheek to cheek to cheek (cheeky, that is...)

jan: shall i compare thee to a summer turnip?

rough winds do shake the turnips of may...

pc: and so literate too!!! i swear, you know every love sonnet involving turnips ever written....(tho a month ago i was not aware of any...amazing how my literary horizons have broadened...)

[Laufey]

Elminster did not 'test' Jaheria. The only thing he did was give her the Harper Pin, premoting her to a Senior Harper. What he did was stand back and let fate take the way. I think he did Jaheria a favor more then he hurt her. Through her experiences, Jaheria was able to learn. She also found her love- an event that probably would not have happened if not for the whole Harper issue.


I'm pretty sure I'm going to offend you here, and I'm sorry about that. ^^ I like Edwin a lot better then Elminster myself, too.

But I have to say in the epologue, he got what was coming to him. I know that you love Edwin, and I do to. And we can speculate on his past, and what might have happened to make him become the way he has become- but that doesn't change the fact that he's selfish, ruthless, and evil. We can say that he was a sweet and lovely child until his mother sent him in a portal to Baator, where he was thrown in the Pit of Flame and corrupted for all enternity, and how his father found him and beat him with some sort of longsword of death, doom, and disaster and how the red wizards of thay tramatised him by forcing him to wear red which reminded him of the horrors of his past and... well, you get the idea. We can make excuse after excuse for why Edwin acts the way he does- but that doesn't change the fact that he does. Eliminster has heard Edwin whining about how he wants to kill him for years. Thus, Eliminster gave him what he deserved- Edwin's main fault is his self-absorbed nature and egoistical tendinicies, and now he's lost the two things that made him like that (his pride in his 'manhood' and his magic). Unity of rings. Edwin got what was coming to him, simple as that. He's a (insert word of choice here)- a loveable, adorable bastard, but still a (insert word of choice here).

I'm going to offend you even more, I'm sure, by adding this. I really am sorry about this. But, when writing it's a good idea to try and be careful to not play favorites (too much- I mean, by the very nature of having a protagonist, your already playing favorites, one could say). I, for instance, absolutely loathe Jan. I'de rather write banters where my favorite characters outwit and debase him- but that wouldn't be fair. Jan is extremely witty, and for the most part, can get almost all the game NPC's wrapped up in his stories even as they want to bang their heads against the wall. It's just the way he is- cannon, you could call it. And it's just like Elminster's power. No matter how much we might prefer it, Edwin doesn't have the ability to outsmart him or hurt him. And it's not really right to change one of the most powerful characters of the game (if not the most character in the dang thing) just because you don't like him and what he did to your favorite character. Part of Elminster's personality is that he's a total trickster- he knows how to do a good prank, and how to guard himself against it.

I'm again sorry for saying this. I suppose this is somewhat like a rant. I again apologise.

Oh no, I'm not that easily offended. I still disagree however. In my opinion, Elminster deliberately let Jaheira go through a lot of pain. He could have helped her earlier simply by telling her the truth, as a real friend would have. And he most certainly couldn't have known she'd find her love - which she also does *not* do if the PC is female.

Regarding Edwin - as I said, nothing is ever going to convince me that his epilogue was fair or just in any way. You're free to disagree of course, and I don't really think it's something we should debate further. It's all a matter of opinion after all.

And as for outdoing Elminster - I admit I haven't read the books. But if we're discussing the game, which is what the mod is ultimately based on, then Elminster himself in ToB says something about how he 'wouldn't risk fighting' the PC. (Sorry, can't recall exact wording.) So, he's clearly not as uber-powerful in the game as in the source material.

Lastly: I know that some people are of the opinion that Elminster shouldn't ever be outwitted or got the better of in any way, but I simply don't agree with that. He's extremely powerful, yes. That doesn't make him a god. And even if he were a god - well, remember what happened to Daddy Bhaal? That's right. Killed. By a mortal. Granted, he didn't have full divine powers at the time, but he still had freakishly high stats, just like Elminster. I guess stats simply don't mean everything.

If you or anybody else disapprove of my handling of Elminster, that in itself does not offend me, but I do not intend to change because of it.

[Laufey]

Elminster, i dislike the guy really bad, especially ingame, never tried to kill him really; (never tought it's possible ingame), especially the letter he sends to gorion in BG1, come on, he warns the guy to get out of there at night, when in candlekeep you would be somewhat safer, while you get ambushed in the way... yeah, rather suspicious that one, and then you found him the next morning!!! what kind of guy is that? weren't him to be friend with gorion? if he knew about Sarevok plans to kill charname and he was reasonably near, why he didn't do nothing againist him? Really, i always tought that Elminster was the mastermind behind all those histories!!!!

Next time i'll find him i will try the Timestop-shapechange mindflayer... Hey, if it works with Arkanis gath an the guy in the Elven camp, and malchor Harpell, maybe it works with the old ponty hat lover!!!!

LOL! You know, that's very similar to my opinion as well.

[jurts]

In my opinion, Elminster deliberately let Jaheira go through a lot of pain. He could have helped her earlier simply by telling her the truth, as a real friend would have. And he most certainly couldn't have known she'd find her love - which she also does *not* do if the PC is female.

I agree wholeheartedly. If poor Jaheira would know what she is signing for when waiting for Gorion's ward in FAI, she would grab Khalid and quickly run off never to return... Love found? And what about her love lost? Ok, my male PC's always give her what she needs, but that is beyond the point... she WAS treated poorly and my hate for Elminster stems mostly from this bit. Eddie's epilogue is just an icing on this Cake of Hate.

I say, let him suffer. Let him suffer in the worst possible way, I would go for something like Ellie did to Jon-Jon, strip him of his divinity and let him experience what it is being just a mere mortal. Let's see how he fares then.

[Laufey]

I agree wholeheartedly. If poor Jaheira would know what she is signing for when waiting for Gorion's ward in FAI, she would grab Khalid and quickly run off never to return... Love found? And what about her love lost? Ok, my male PC's always give her what she needs, but that is beyond the point... she WAS treated poorly and my hate for Elminster stems mostly from this bit. Eddie's epilogue is just an icing on this Cake of Hate.

I say, let him suffer. Let him suffer in the worst possible way, I would go for something like Ellie did to Jon-Jon, strip him of his divinity and let him experience what it is being just a mere mortal. Let's see how he fares then.

Don't you worry...he *will* suffer.

[Userunfriendly]

on a personal note, i happen to dislike jan a lot...

Grrr. I happen top adore the little sod. Gosh I like him more than my favorite villain Jonny and that tells a lot! I may write Jan's romance just annoy everybody. In which he will take you as his third wife after Lisa and Viconia. LOL!

Hey dorotea, i wrote the funny above about a jan romance to amuse you and make you laugh...

have you seen it yet???

hmmm...

if you tell a joke in the woods, and nobody hears you, is it still funny???

[dorotea]

Hey dorotea, i wrote the funny above about a jan romance to amuse you and make you laugh...

have you seen it yet???

hmmm...

if you tell a joke in the woods, and nobody hears you, is it still funny???

I am sorry my dear little winged friend! It was hilariously funny. I am a bit overworked these days, read - running like a rabbit, trying to juggle about half a dozen different projects and stopping my fingers from typing yet another strange story or dialog ...

i can just imagine any romance about jan would involve the "STEP LADDER OF LOVE"...

jan: will, will you, charname, kiss me?

pc: jan, my sweet turnip truffle, we have a problem...my back is kinda outa whack, when i whacked those trolls yesterday...so i can't kneel down for you...

jan: never fear, my little turnipee...here is the jansen "step ladder of love" for height challenged gnomes who fall in love with the taller races...

LOL!

I am Kazanunda - the second greatest lover of all times...

Why the second ?

They will think I would try harder!

I assume you are Terry Pratchett lover as well? !

Loved it.

[Userunfriendly]

"I assume you are Terry Pratchett lover as well? !

Loved it."



thanks!!!

actually i dont read terry pratchett...my main focus is military science fiction, and hard science fiction, greg bear, sm stirling, john ringo, gregory benford, charles sheffield...i actually read one of the first books terry pratchett put out, about diskworld before he became popular, and i didnt really like his "voice" you know, that inner vocalization you get from an author when you read their work...

oooooo...do you know who you will LOVE, if you like terry pratchett???

Barry Hughart, who wrote bridge of birds...you will absolutely LOVE bridge of birds, i absolutely guarentee it, in fact, everyone who likes terry pratchett will love barry hughart....absolutely the best author of fantasy i have ever read, and i am including lord dunsany, randall garret, tolken( no bull), david edding and just about everyone else...he is superb, and completely the best fantasy author i have ever read, and i read a lot...

everybody who reads this thread, i strongly encourage you to read 100 pages of any barry hughart, you will be instantly hooked..

sorry about your schedule..i kinda understand, i have a very important professional certification test on monday...test 4 of the ccnp series...aaagggg......

i hate isdn and ddr...drives me buggers...

[Laufey]

"I assume you are Terry Pratchett lover as well? !

Loved it."



thanks!!!

actually i dont read terry pratchett...my main focus is military science fiction, and hard science fiction, greg bear, sm stirling, john ringo, gregory benford, charles sheffield...i actually read one of the first books terry pratchett put out, about diskworld before he became popular, and i didnt really like his "voice" you know, that inner vocalization you get from an author when you read their work...

oooooo...do you know who you will LOVE, if you like terry pratchett???

Barry Hughart, who wrote bridge of birds...you will absolutely LOVE bridge of birds, i absolutely guarentee it, in fact, everyone who likes terry pratchett will love barry hughart....absolutely the best author of fantasy i have ever read, and i am including lord dunsany, randall garret, tolken( no bull), david edding and just about everyone else...he is superb, and completely the best fantasy author i have ever read, and i read a lot...

everybody who reads this thread, i strongly encourage you to read 100 pages of any barry hughart, you will be instantly hooked..

sorry about your schedule..i kinda understand, i have a very important professional certification test on monday...test 4 of the ccnp series...aaagggg......

i hate isdn and ddr...drives me buggers...

Oh, I really have to try to remember to check out that author you mentioned! And good luck on your test!

[Ophidia]

*namedrop mode activated*

Can I just mention here that I've met Terry Pratchett?

Yes, Laufey, I know you're sick of hearing me say that...

[Laufey]

*namedrop mode activated*

Can I just mention here that I've met Terry Pratchett?

Yes, Laufey, I know you're sick of hearing me say that...

*Hurrrrrllll!* Just kidding!

[Laufey]

Hey , thanks to your little babling , 3rd edition Elminster looks like Sean Connery !
Ahhh ! I shall slay you all !

Pity he didn't acquire the acting skills and charisma too.

[El Diablo]

hmmm this reminds me of a conversation i had a while back in which we created a new character named HELLMINSTER elminsters evil twin
with dialog like:
"ho there wanderer stay thy course a moment so i can rip out your intestence and feast on your SOUL!!!"
"it is most disturbing this is the course thou hast chosen, for now i shall not have the plessure of tearing you limb from limb"
and so on
actually they should have made an evil version of el that would be great

[Laufey]

hmmm this reminds me of a conversation i had a while back in which we created a new character named HELLMINSTER elminsters evil twin
with dialog like:
"ho there wanderer stay thy course a moment so i can rip out your intestence and feast on your SOUL!!!"
"it is most disturbing this is the course thou hast chosen, for now i shall not have the plessure of tearing you limb from limb"
and so on
actually they should have made an evil version of el that would be great

LOL! Funny idea! Personally I would be happy with a fair chance of killing El himself within the game...

[Mikka]

I guess I just have to pop in to give my weekly 'Defend the NPC's everyone else hates' serman (*wonders when she's going to be kicked off the boards*).


First, Elle can not take away anyones magic ability. Period. Mystra is not at his call and whim, and thus does not follow any 'orders' he makes (a ridiculous concept). If Edwin's magic ability was taken away (which I still doubt), then that was done by Mystra and Mystra alone. Blaming him for that is stupid- Mystra protects her loved ones the same way CHARNAME would protect Edwin. The relationship between Mystra (Midnight, but calling her Mystra is much easier) is different then the one between El and the former Mystra, but Mystra/Midnight sees El as a fatherlike figure and loves him very much, as said in the novels and sourcebooks. I can't see her taking away someone's magical ability for attacking him, as that would weaken her severely, but if you want to ride that game line, fine, alright. Being of a good alignment and having someone trying to use your very essence for evil purposes such as enslaving creatures, taking over Thay, and attacking someone who's guided you throughout your life and is like a father to you is something that would drive you to extreme measures, too, I think. How would Edwin deal if someone went up and tried to assassinate his father (err, his real one)? By giving them a pat on a head and a smile? Edwin's not an exactly nice person- and neither, for that matter, is Mystra. She's more prone to niceness then meanness, but as a Goddess, she has to trancend that line. And as for El...

Second, he tried to warn Gorion. He knew Sarevok was heading to assasinate CHARNAME (and by assosiation, Gorion), so he sent a message telling so- being cryptic in case it fell in the wrong hands. However, although it reached Gorion before Sarey would, Gorion didn't seem to take that warning seriously- CHARNAME might have been ready to leave at four in the morning, but it wasn't till late night till they actually left the keep! Can El be blamed because Gorion didn't follow the warning? The gods are forbidden from messing in the affairs of Bhaalspawn, and, by that thread, they aren't supposed to send direct avatars or servants either (Or else you would have ran in to every fifth person being a servant of some god wanting to kill you/rise you to power/make an ally of you/paint you pink and run around in circles laughing about the pink mini-god) (and yes, that means Cyric cheated, but in the game time, Cyric is SUPPOSED to still be insane in the first place and waiting for trial, so that can just be added to his list of rule breaking and shrugged about). He gave a warning, but that's the best he could do. He couldn't predict what was happening.

Third, he ISN'T a prophet. The domain of divination is quite different from enchantment and evocation, which he specializes in. He doesn't sit around all day going "hummm... hummm... who will die today?". He could not know that Khalid was going to die. He's powerful- very powerful- but not even the gods know when someone is going to die, unless they are a God (or Goddess) with death as part as their portfollio. Khalid died, and no one could do anything about that as Jaheria did not want to disturb the body further.

Fourth, he is not the one who runs the Harpers. He does NOT choose when someone gets their pin. Him giving Jaheria her harper pin, however, is like a zulkier(sp) giving Edwin his red wizard robes- quite over the top, and a great honor. He respects her strength, and she looks up to him. It's that simple.



I wonder why I even bother, as I know I'm not going to change anyones opinions... =_= I don't know. I'm just against a character being harmed because the creater of the mod doesn't like that character. I, personally, hate Jan (and the evil K-god who's name I dare not say as he is is a blight on this most wonderful land but he will soon be luckily destroyed by the most holy Cy- ahh, was I saying something?), but to make a mod where some random character pops up and kills him would be unfair and discrediting to his character. Just be careful. I look up to Laufey's writing skills very much, but from the way this is going, it seems like a lot of personal vengence the modder has against the character coming out sort of unfairly to him...

*hides and prepares for flames and slaps*


{Let it eb known again that I don't like El on principal. I do defend him, though. I should get paid, I think.}