75 replies to this topic

[Archmage Silver]

David Gaider has never been, and never will be, more than a mediocre game designer. If you think he single-handedly created anything you couldn't be more wrong.

Always, and that means always, it's team effort that gets games like SoA made, and not any single person. I have more respect for the artists who created the portraits for the Baldur's Gate series, and the composers who composed the music.

That'll be all I have to say on this matter.

[Kulyok]

I've enjoyed Gaider's stories quite a lot, and posted links to them them in numerous topics, in UB forum and in other places. Thanks for posting them here, too - gave me a reason to smile at "What might have been..." one more time. To me he is good, he is sincere, and most of all, he is interesting without going over the top. When I was writing my Valygar romance/support path for Xan ToB, I tried to imitate Gaider's style, and I think I have succeeded - and I liked the result, too.

Other than that, I think Cuv, jcompton and Vlasák said it all.


@Domi: remember Aarin Gend, and the way he kept folding his arms? I haven't played Carth, yet, but I suspect they've taken it from there.

[GeN1e]

Really, give credit where it's due. If you want a game designer to praise, go take a look at Chris Avellone over at Obsidian. PS:T is so much better than anything Gaider's ever had his hands in.

I wish people would stop glorifying David Gaider. It's not that I don't appreciate his contributions to the modding community, but that's not reason enough to deify him. The only reason he's a name is because he's "accessible," but that's about it.

There are people in the modding community who, in my opinion, are ten times better designers and/or writers than David Gaider. He's not better than the best of us, and definitely shouldn't have the reputation for being that, either.

Sebastian, care to tell what makes you to think you've got a right to decide who should and who shouldn't be praised (doesn't matter if one deserves glorifying or not)?

For the sake of discussion - I don't think DG is that great as you've described and never thought so. I'm relatively new in the community and don't know each detail about whatever is related to modding. But if what folks say about DG being the only one who was (is?) willingly helping community with Bioware's secrets then he do deserve respect. Note that I'm not saying this respect should be greater than one that gets, say, Weimer. And also note that I'm not saying the reverse.

Edited by GeN1e, 07 May 2007 - 06:21 AM.

[Vlasák]

SConrad: I see your point, but not the point of this discussion. I'm not active in everyday discussions and chats on IE modding boards recently so i cannot consider exactly whether there are some "godlike praises" about Gaider. However, I doubt about it - why? Because Gaider is in the scene due to his position - as has been said here, the position "the one from Bioware who helped with modding and cooperate on some mods".
And people know this. So people know Gaider and the fact that he is Bioware employee and the fact he is employed there as designer. See... the path to "Gaider's glory" is lead through his input to modding. People here and on other forums simply know him and the rest is normal process - someone could add some rumour and fiction, but the reason is not in Gaider - designer but in Gaider - "modder".

GeN1e: well said.

Just one notice - in fact, Gaider is/was not "the only one" from Bioware involved in modding. The truth is there were another guys - I don't remember the names but in Infinity Scripters and IEEAIS groups were other Bioware employees - many years ago, but I think Bartel, Winski (? I'm not sure about him) and some others has been (more or less; rather less ) active in these mailing groups. There were another contacts with Bioware in early years of IE modding, I don't know all details about it. However, Gaider was remarkable (as could be "proven" by the fact I can remember him and can't remember the others ) - and that's why most of people involved in modding know him (or the "legend" about him )

[jcompton]

Just one notice - in fact, Gaider is/was not "the only one" from Bioware involved in modding. The truth is there were another guys - I don't remember the names but in Infinity Scripters and IEEAIS groups were other Bioware employees - many years ago, but I think Bartel, Winski (? I'm not sure about him) and some others has been (more or less; rather less ) active in these mailing groups. There were another contacts with Bioware in early years of IE modding, I don't know all details about it. However, Gaider was remarkable (as could be "proven" by the fact I can remember him and can't remember the others ) - and that's why most of people involved in modding know him (or the "legend" about him )

I was careful to qualify my statement in case somebody brought this up.

Yes, IEEAIS' promotional materials hailed the early discussions some Bioware guys had about scripting mechanics on the mailing list, but by time BG2 rolled around, that had pretty much dried up. To put an even finer point on it: by time the first public version of WeiDU proper was released (in other words, when it was finally possible to make interesting mods without having to put one's head through a brick wall), even Gaider had bailed on modding.

[the bigg]

I dunno, M p r i l l a was very quick to point out that he had some Bioware employees in the Infinity Scripters list at yahoo. However, his desire to politely ask all Bioware employees to join IS lead to his timely downfall.

[SConrad]

Sebastian, care to tell what makes you to think you've got a right to decide who should and who shouldn't be praised (doesn't matter if one deserves glorifying or not)?

I believe I have the right to decide for myself as to whom I should praise or not. As for others... I don't.

I do believe, however, that everyone should at least have some of the facts straight before making that decision for themselves - and that's what sparked this thread. And I believe that I should be able to influence others by expressing my own opinion.

SConrad: I see your point, but not the point of this discussion. I'm not active in everyday discussions and chats on IE modding boards recently so i cannot consider exactly whether there are some "godlike praises" about Gaider. However, I doubt about it - why? Because Gaider is in the scene due to his position - as has been said here, the position "the one from Bioware who helped with modding and cooperate on some mods".
And people know this. So people know Gaider and the fact that he is Bioware employee and the fact he is employed there as designer. See... the path to "Gaider's glory" is lead through his input to modding. People here and on other forums simply know him and the rest is normal process - someone could add some rumour and fiction, but the reason is not in Gaider - designer but in Gaider - "modder".

I have never denied that it's his dabbling a bit in modding that has put him in the status he currently has. But you can't claim that it's him being a "modder" that has made him a legend, because that's not true. As JC said:

To put an even finer point on it: by time the first public version of WeiDU proper was released (in other words, when it was finally possible to make interesting mods without having to put one's head through a brick wall), even Gaider had bailed on modding.

I don't see anyone attributing Khalid and Jaheira's names to Minto or Ken, whose "achievements" in the modding community should be on par with - if not even greater than - Gaider's.

(Nobody talks about Ken anymore. )

I can only say again and again that it's unwarranted, because I don't think he's good enough to be worthy of the status. I find it ridiculous that his name is held in such high regard, even after all this time.

[Kulyok]

I don't see anyone attributing Khalid and Jaheira's names to Minto or Ken, whose "achievements" in the modding community should be on par with - if not even greater than - Gaider's.

Why not open a thread about Ken and Minto's achievements, then, instead of trashing Gaider? Not that he'd pay attention even if he comes by this thread, but it's rather strange to plant green icons and badmouth a guy to whom Cam, I and others write about BG2, developers' intentions, dialogue and other stuff - and he answers.

(Add some archive materials with Ken's posts, too... *snicker*)

[Bookwyrme]

I, too, would be interested in hearing about these others, especially if the intent of this thread is (or is at least partly) to bring recognition to those who deserve it.

[SConrad]

Why not open a thread about Ken and Minto's achievements, then, instead of trashing Gaider?

Because their achievements in my eyes are not really worthy of that kind of praise, anymore - hence the comparison to Gaider. His achievements aren't worthy, either. If Ken had the same reputation as Gaider, I'm pretty sure I would have started a thread about him, too.

Not that he'd pay attention even if he comes by this thread, but it's rather strange to plant green icons and badmouth a guy to whom Cam, I and others write about BG2, developers' intentions, dialogue and other stuff - and he answers.

If someone deserves a hero status for replying to an email, you sure have some strange prerequisites for glorifying someone.

[Kulyok]

If a game developer spends their time to help a modder - me - while he doesn't have to, I sure am grateful for that. Just as I am happy when I get a reply from another modder or writer. I am not sure as to where you've gotten the hero status and the glorifying thing. And, yeah, if someone called me something nasty, I'd probably be more wary of collaborating with them in the future.

[Vlasák]

I don't see anyone attributing Khalid and Jaheira's names to Minto or Ken, whose "achievements" in the modding community should be on par with - if not even greater than - Gaider's.

(Nobody talks about Ken anymore. )

I can only say again and again that it's unwarranted, because I don't think he's good enough to be worthy of the status. I find it ridiculous that his name is held in such high regard, even after all this time.

Hmm, Ken or Minto were Bioware employees?

By some people the fact that Gaider is from Bioware can be considered as very "cool". Bioware made the engine, made the bg games, so the input from one of creators can be seen as somehow unique.

ad Ken... I think that the sentence written by JC ("...by time the first public version of WeiDU proper was released (in other words, when it was finally possible to make interesting mods without having to put one's head through a brick wall...") could attract his attention suppose he would read this thread (that was one of my first impressions when I've read it... remember the disputations about the role of weidu in IE modding during Ken's last active era)

[SConrad]

If a game developer spends their time to help a modder - me - while he doesn't have to, I sure am grateful for that. Just as I am happy when I get a reply from another modder or writer. I am not sure as to where you've gotten the hero status and the glorifying thing.

So, in your opinion, is there a difference between him and everyone else?

And, yeah, if someone called me something nasty, I'd probably be more wary of collaborating with them in the future.

I'm not really sure what this refers to.

Hmm, Ken or Minto were Bioware employees?

No, they weren't, but you were the one who said Gaider was famous for being a modder and not a designer - and I said "uh, no."

[Kulyok]

So, in your opinion, is there a difference between him and everyone else?

Between him and who, and where? Are we talking about Bioware developers in the BG community? To me it seems he is more open to the end users, whether players or modders, and that's the main difference, I would think. Writing-wise, I don't think his writing really stands out(as better or worse) - all this stuff was good, except (insert a list starting with "Bondari reloads"). I prefer Gaider's Viconia and Anomen-SoA, some prefer not-Gaider's Jaheira and Anomen-ToB. Both are solid, in my opinion.

Edited by Kulyok, 08 May 2007 - 04:25 AM.

[SConrad]

Between him and who, and where? Are we talking about Bioware developers in the BG community? To me it seems he is more open to the end users, whether players or modders, and that's the main difference, I would think. Writing-wise, I don't think his writing really stands out(as better or worse) - all this stuff was good, except (insert a list starting with "Bondari reloads"). I prefer Gaider's Viconia and Anomen-SoA, some prefer not-Gaider's Jaheira and Anomen-ToB. Both are solid, in my opinion.

You give him more credit for his writing than I do and I don't really think that it's his openness is too much to be excited of, but otherwise, I don't have a problem with that.

Looks like you're not one of the people I want to convince not to worship Gaider, then.

[Vlasák]

Hmm, Ken or Minto were Bioware employees?

No, they weren't, but you were the one who said Gaider was famous for being a modder and not a designer - and I said "uh, no."

Yes, I said it - but it is not complete what has been said. Gaider has not been "normal" modder, he has been from Bioware. You can call it as you want, "Bioware modder" maybe... But this is the role that primary made him "famous". And note that in "Bioware modder" is not "genial designer" or something... That's why people know him...

Avellone is maybe better designer, however he is not "known" for community like Gaider. For people in IE modding Avellone is - compared with Gaider - rather anonymous head somewhere in corporation. Maybe people out of IE modding know Avellone more rather than Gaider (simply because they don't know about Gaider at all) and (...and thus) give Avellone more glory - because such people don't know IE modding, Gaider, Ascension, etc. at all. But we are in IE modding here, in IE modding where Gaider has been active, Gaider is familiar for us - all we know that he has worked on BG2.

One notice, maybe it has some importance, maybe not - from all IE games is BG2 the most popular, for modders probably too. And Gaider has his credit on BG2. Not Avellone. Avellone has his Torment (and IWD, and Fallout, etc. let's stay on Torment, his most noticeable work)... well, Torment that is for me much, much better than all Baldur's Gates, but many people don't like Torment or don't play it. So someone who likes BG2 more than Torment could simply prefer Gaider more... This could be one of additional (but probably minor) reasons why Gaider and not the others. We cannot see it as black and white world "Gaider's glory = he is designer-god: yes/no?"

[Magnus_025]

This conversation is ridiculous and harmful. David Gaider may not be the number 1 modder or writer but at least he helps people who have doubts about modding, writting or whatever when he doesn't have too. More or less than other people he was involved in the design, work, -insert action here- of the game in which most of us expend his free time playing, and for that he is known.

He is obviously not a God, nobody has said that but for me at least he has deserved a very huge piece of respect and you SConrad has lost a bit. Why? Not for critisize him, not for givin your opionion which is the most respectable thing a person have. You have lost respect for being so hard with his writing: what's your point in this? Has DG received a Nobel of Literature? No, but at least he has a good writting, one that players can understand and enjoy, not everyone has to be a Cervantes or a Shakespeare to write a fanfic or a mod. Are we crazy or what?

You (and people who thinks like you, even if -repeating myself- are worth of respect) has quit me my wishes of writting a mod. I'm not a coder, nor will be one but I hoped to write a npc mod sooner than later and ask for help with the codding, but now, seeing that you have to be a famous writter to write 40 lovetalks and interjections my wishes are gone.

Don't answer to this, I don't write for that, I just write to remind you that even if you have the right to express your opinion, you have to think carefully what you say and how you say it. If David Gaider is respected, famous or gloryfied, who are you to try to convince people to lose respect in him?

Loads of people enter this forums everyday, and most of them don't know who David Gaider is, so the people who praise him or think that he is great is not the whole world community, only the veterans, veterans like yourself who started in the modding community long ago and probably used some of what Gaider told (or what Gaider told some other) in your working.

Nothing more, Magnus_025.

Edited by Magnus_025, 08 May 2007 - 07:22 AM.

[jcompton]

I wonder if there's not a sidebar discussion to be had here about whether or not people value and give credence to that elusive notion of "Developer Intent," and how that influences their opinion.

After all, Gaider's mod contributions, the TOB boss AI tweaks and then Ascension, were all very clearly labeled with "Developer Intent," which some people find very appealing. Similarly, the "let's ask Gaider about fixpack stuff" also places a premium on Developer Intent.

I get the impression that The Desert Drifter feels that everybody's contributions to modder/community-dom should be evaluated within a somewhat narrow context: "Was your mod any good?", "Were your posts interesting?", "Were your fanfics interesting?", "Do you have very silky hair and a long neck?"*, etc. No consideration given to what your day job is or whether or not you represent some notion of Developer Intent.

Others, however, are looking at it with a broader lens: "He contributed to the game and did this other stuff, making the Other Stuff even more valuable than it would have been had it come from Random Modder #37. Because it reflects Developer Intent, and because it sets him apart from his peers, and so forth."

* - I may have been thinking of somebody else here.

Edited by jcompton, 08 May 2007 - 08:41 AM.

[SConrad]

This conversation is ridiculous and harmful. David Gaider may not be the number 1 modder or writer but at least he helps people who have doubts about modding, writting or whatever when he doesn't have too. More or less than other people he was involved in the design, work, -insert action here- of the game in which most of us expend his free time playing, and for that he is known.

He is obviously not a God, nobody has said that but for me at least he has deserved a very huge piece of respect and you SConrad has lost a bit. Why? Not for critisize him, not for givin your opionion which is the most respectable thing a person have. You have lost respect for being so hard with his writing: what's your point in this? Has DG received a Nobel of Literature? No, but at least he has a good writting, one that players can understand and enjoy, not everyone has to be a Cervantes or a Shakespeare to write a fanfic or a mod. Are we crazy or what?

You (and people who thinks like you, even if -repeating myself- are worth of respect) has quit me my wishes of writting a mod. I'm not a coder, nor will be one but I hoped to write a npc mod sooner than later and ask for help with the codding, but now, seeing that you have to be a famous writter to write 40 lovetalks and interjections my wishes are gone.

Don't answer to this, I don't write for that, I just write to remind you that even if you have the right to express your opinion, you have to think carefully what you say and how you say it. If David Gaider is respected, famous or gloryfied, who are you to try to convince people to lose respect in him?

Loads of people enter this forums everyday, and most of them don't know who David Gaider is, so the people who praise him or think that he is great is not the whole world community, only the veterans, veterans like yourself who started in the modding community long ago and probably used some of what Gaider told (or what Gaider told some other) in your working.

You... don't see the point. Have I been overly critical and harsh toward Gaider's work? Have I bashed him and his contributions? I don't think I have.

I'm saying he's "mediocre", which means that it's of ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad. I'm not saying he's bad, that he sucks, or that he should go hide under a rock for the rest of his life. I don't understand where all of you people read that I absolutely loathe everything he does; because I don't, and as far as I know, I haven't said that either. (In other words, please provide quotes of me saying he's the worst there is ever.)

It's still beside the point. This thread is about his ability and his status not being a match.

If this had quit your wishes of writing a mod, then that makes me sad to hear, and it was certainly not the intention of this thread.

Others, however, are looking at it with a broader lens: "He contributed to the game and did this other stuff, making the Other Stuff even more valuable than it would have been had it come from Random Modder #37. Because it reflects Developer Intent, and because it sets him apart from his peers, and so forth."

How do we know that Gaider and his point of view actually represents "Developer Intent"? I mean no disrespect, but on who's auhority did/does he speak? We see these developing team credits, and he is in many instances not prominently displayed - so I have to ask, who has given him the go-ahead to speak on the others' behalf?

If not... then can we label his ideas and views as "Developer Intent"?

[Cuv]

How do we know that Gaider and his point of view actually represents "Developer Intent"? I mean no disrespect, but on who's auhority did/does he speak? We see these developing team credits, and he is in many instances not prominently displayed - so I have to ask, who has given him the go-ahead to speak on the others' behalf?

If not... then can we label his ideas and views as "Developer Intent"?

I doubt that you or anyone can. You will have to ask him personally on that one. I remember that he said that he needed to get some kind of permission to work on Ascension and that he was NOT allowed to use any official Bioware tools in making it... hence the need for a team. Just what level of permission and for what specifically was none of my business. Too bad IEEAIS is gone, or a careful review of all those developement posts might give more insight.

On a side-note... you could say that without Gaider's involvement in Ascension, then we would not have alot of important tools such as Near Infinity. Olav was constantly asking DG what was needed, so who knows; the development of NI might have stopped or died had it not been for DG's involvement in the modding community. And would Wes have even dreamed of making WeiDU had it not been for earlier modding work at TBG, NI and Dave Gaider???? Who knows?

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Interesting thread, not sure I see the point, but interesting.

Cuv