40 replies to this topic

[Ankhes]

Yes yes yes! An evil NPC who is romanceable! And since you have done so much work already I am feeling very good that you will finish her. I really hope so. I would adore an evil party some day.
Her character sounds really interesting and one thing that is always good is if a npc can stand on her own and not rely on a romance to make her interesting. : )

[Dirt_Squirrel]

Thank you Ankhes,
it's nice to see someone so excited about my mod. Rest assured that she will indeed be finished and in one of your parties before too long!

DS

[Dirt_Squirrel]

I dunno; I'd have figured Neutral or Chaotic Evil rather than Lawful.

I am afraid you have lost me here Azzy, Diabolique is Neutral Evil, not lawful. My apologies if I somehow lead you astray.

how long have you been working on her?

While I don't know the *exact* length of time I have been working on her, I would guess it to be around 6 months now...maybe a bit less.

Edited by Dirt_Squirrel, 24 May 2007 - 05:51 PM.

[Azkyroth]

I dunno; I'd have figured Neutral or Chaotic Evil rather than Lawful.

I am afraid you have lost me here Azzy, Diabolique is Neutral Evil, not lawful. My apologies if I somehow lead you astray.

He said she was a real "devil." Devils ("baatezu") in the D&D cosmology are the personification of Lawful Evil.

[Kellen]

While Demons are CE. They don't seem to have a personification of NE in the lower planes. Pity.

Can we get a sample banter, whether between her and an NPC, or her and the PC.

[HERD]

A coat of arms for your girl
"spoon and blade"


source and copyrights: http://www.spoonandblade.com/

[Deathsangel]

While Demons are CE. They don't seem to have a personification of NE in the lower planes. Pity.

Tisk, tisk. We Yugoloth shall sell your soul for that mortal.

CE = Demons (sub-race: Tana'ri) = Infinite Layers of the Abyss
NE = Yugoloth = currently Gehenna, originally Hades
LE = Devils (sub-race: Baatezu) = Nine Hells of Baator

(edit) Yeah, I know the lore is little about it, but I am trying to fix that... MftW is just a lot for a one man show

Edited by Deathsangel, 12 June 2007 - 04:06 AM.

[Ilmatar]

Hello! Reality check!

and increasing fascination with evil threw her into the company of a roguish stranger and a band of adventurers whose fates were intermingled with her own.

Diabolique sounds wonderful, fantastic, intriguing and fun. But I'm really horrible with my "realistic psychology plz" fits. Evil is considered wrong. No one wants to do wrong, right? Not even evil guys. Really evil people think they are doing the right thing. It's completely possible that rogues love the sneaking and the nicking, and seeing how far they dare to go, etc. Rogues don't feel they're doing the wrong thing, or the evil thing. They always have a defensive explanation. "Well they're rich anyway, they don't deseve all that", or even as simple as, "It's my job, duuuhhhh. I gotta get a living." Same goes with assassins - I would think they look at human (or [insert race here]) life from a different point of view, and they, too, might say, "some people do not deserve to live", or "all life has a price tag on it", something similar.

No one aims to be evil, unless we're talking about a parodic character who is so EVIL he is a comic relief (Xycon in OOTS comes to mind). Give Diabolique a psychological reason, or shed light into the way she thinks about killing and life to defend her chosen career. Unless of course she is a comic relief, and is deliberately EVIL.

Edited by Ilmatar, 14 June 2007 - 04:51 AM.

[Kulyok]

No one wants to do wrong, right? Not even evil guys. Really evil people think they are doing the right thing.

I hate to disappoint you, but have you ever heard of the guys who'd do evil because they enjoy it?

"This is wrong, sure, but I sure like the fear in my victim's eyes... though, on the other hand, I'd better strike from behind." - "Um, do you know it's wrong and cowardly and anyway, killing this guy is evil?" - "Sure! But, see, it's such fun!" - "Okaaay... Now I want a try, too!"

(This was a round of "Stalker" game. But happens in real life, too, or so I'm told).

[Tempest]

I think I agree with Ilmatar here. There are very few personalities that actively consider themselves evil-these people are known as sociopaths. Personally, I think a person can simply not care about whether their actions are right or wrong (like Irenicus), considering their goal to be above petty morals, but I do not think a rational person can think to themself "I am evil. I am a blight upon this earth."

[Kulyok]

I am evil. I am a blight upon this earth.

The second sentence takes it for granted that the person in question would share the opinion in thinking that evil people are a blight upon this earth or country or whatever. "Evil is fun!" is a statement shared by many people for entirely different reasons, from Death Eaters' "killing muggles for fun" to some assassin's "I will look cool in this black leather armor, and people will fear me!" to "I don't care. I want this woman, that man stands in the way, and I shall kill him. Quietly. Conscience? A silly notion." to "Cheating is evil, you say? Well, I support double standards, and if it's evil for you - too bad" to "This woman has just cut me in the line in the restaurant! Oh, I hope she'll be served something HORRIBLE!"

[berelinde]

I can see the validity of Ilmatar's argument, Kulyok's argument, and Tempest's argument. I can also say that I've met people who really were "fascinated with evil," but it usually went no further than painting their nails black, wearing really dark lipstick, and avoiding sunlight. They'd gossip about the dreadful evils they would visit on the society that opressed them, but none of the teenagers I knew who did this actually broke any laws that didn't involve alcohol or drugs. Eventually, they all seem to have outgrown it only to be replaced by the next set. These kids were fascinated with evil, and probably fancied that they were quite evil and dangerous themselves, but they still cried if they hit a raccoon while driving home from a party. Every once in a while, you read in the paper about somebody who took it too far and mugged a granny, or something, but for the most part, they were more interested in shocking authority figures than they were in causing trouble.

The truly dangerous evil doers don't always think that they are doing evil. If you asked them if they were aware that they were doing something wrong, they'd probably shrug and say "Yeah, probably" with no conviction or interest. "Really, it would have been so much easier if he had just given me his wallet. Yeah, it was a drag that I had to kill him, but the idiot just had to go and act a hero. Whatever. He didn't even have any money on him."

Though to be honest, I can't really imagine the dialogue in Kulyok's post playing out like that. In my mind it goes like this:
"Sure, there's nothing like seeing the fear in my victim's eyes. But it is safer to strike from behind."
"Don't you think that's wrong, cowardly, even?"
"Nah, just sensible."

[Dirt_Squirrel]

While I certainly respect everyone's right to have their own opinion, I am afraid that I have to disagree with Ilmatar and Tempest.
There are some people in this world who do know right from wrong, who do know that if they do "X" they are committing a sin, are being purely evil, and yet go ahead and do it anyways. Some do it for the thrill they get from doing such actions, while others do it to prove how "bad" they really are.
They know that what they are doing is evil, they just aren't so bound up with morals etc that the knowledge stops them.

This is how Diabolique is.
She was raised "right", her father was a paladin for crying out loud. She knows what is "right" and what is "wrong". She simply chooses to act in an evil way because she likes it. She likes the thrill she gets from it. She likes how it brings her power. How people cower from her, how people fear her, how she can get people to do what she wants them to do because they are afraid of her.
She isn't all caught up with morals, and heaven / hell etc. She simply acts in whatever way she must to achieve her goals.

Anybody who doesn't believe there truly are evil people in this world needs only look at the crime rates, our prisons, the number of missing / killed children....the list goes on and on... take that poor lady who died on the hospital floor yesterday because the nurses, doctors etc wouldn't help her, or the janitor who mopped the floor around her as she lay there dying....surely you aren't going to tell me these people didn't *know* that what they were doing was wrong now, are you?

Diabolique is evil because she is fascinated with it, she chooses to behave in an evil manner because she likes it, she likes the results she gets from her actions.

Ask any behaviouralist and they will tell you that if a person does something and they like what happens because of their actions, they are very likely to continue acting in the same way.
In terms of Diabolique, she acts evil, she kills people, she chooses to commit "X" and finds that it gives her a thrill, it gives her power, it causes her to become well known, it causes people to become afraid of her...and she likes all of this....and this in turn leads to her choosing to continue acting in this way.

Diabolique is evil because she *WANTS* to be.

Now, I completely understand that this may not sit well with some people. I totally respect this. But, please, don't tell me that people don't choose to do the wrong thing because we do.

[Ilmatar]

Ahhh, Tempest and berelinde, and Dirt Squirrel of course all had very good points, and I respect Squirrel's statement, and I now understand where you are coming from with Diabolique being evil.

I still want to clear up my earlier post. I meant that people who don't have personality disorders do wrong things, and deep inside they know it's wrong, but to make it easier for themselves, they make up defensive statements, like child abuserd sort of know it's wrong, or that the society thinks it's wrong, but they strongly, thoroughly believe that it's okay, and that the child is also okay with it, and that the abuser loves the child and wants no harm, even though in reality the child is lead on by the older authority figure who uses him/her and gets life-long trauma. Then the cases of really cruel child abusers - they really, deeply and thoroughly believe that chilren are not real, sentient beings yet, but that they are under developed little brats who exist to help and serve their elders. Or something like that. So it makes it okay for them, in their own heads, to use the children.

This was just an example of what I'm trying to say. In Diabolique's situation she acts the way she does to get power and respect, and might have a slight personality disorder - she might be atleast mildy psycopahtic, meaning that she isn't all that sensitive to other people's feelings and lacks in empathy.

Alignments always bug me in rpg's, because I don't believe in good and evil. I believe in deeds or attitudes and the way people see and defend them.

[berelinde]

The beauty of it is that there are so many different ways it can be portrayed, from calculated manipulation to casual indifference. All are equally valid.

[Dirt_Squirrel]

Heh, yes, I would have to say that it is fairly safe to say that Diabolique is not very sensitive to other people's feelings and lacks empathy. Mildly psycopathic? probably!

Edited by Dirt_Squirrel, 14 June 2007 - 06:33 AM.

[Ankhes]

Heh, yes, I would have to say that it is fairly safe to say that Diabolique is not very sensitive to other people's feelings and lacks empathy. Mildly psycopathic? probably!

This really is all very interesting and I like the way you are making her. Still eager for her and keep up the good work!

[Gabrielle]

What is evil any way? Morals and laws of a culture, which each culture varies accordingly.

"Evil" person's line of thought.

Why not hurt others? It was done to me, why not do it unto others?

I really don't care about doing harm to another. Hell hurt me, it's been done before, it really doesn't matter to me.

I believe in what I am doing is right. Your beliefs are false and wrong.

I'm not evil. Others do my will, why should I get chastized for their actions?

We have human sacrifices in my culture, why is it evil? It would anger our gods if we did not do their will.

and so on.

[minotaur_in_maze]

Something I keep thinking about.

She does what she does because she LIKES the power et all, is fascinated by evil intent, selfish, on and on.

BUT - Does she Consider herself "Evil"?

I find it hard to believe that Any person (baring BG 2 deamons maybe) would think of themselves as evil, even if they were. To use a real world axim - Hitler, for example, didn't consider himself to be an evil man. His actions, In HIS view, were perfectly okay...but I doubt many sane people would fail to consider him a decent villian.

So of Diabolique???

MiM

[Kulyok]

I find it hard to believe that Any person (baring BG 2 deamons maybe) would think of themselves as evil, even if they were.

Hey, it's we evil people who are supposed to lack empathy!