48 replies to this topic

[Dark-Mage]

Thank you for the very informative review Bluenose. Some of the changes to the mechanics don't sound too bad, but alas I'm going to have to take your word on it. Given how I'm starting University soon and need to get more serious about my writing, I doubt I'll even have the time/money to buy and read through the books yet alone try organising any kind of campaign.

My biggest annoyance with 4th edition, however, still remains. The things they have done to the FR campaign setting just for the sack of bringing it inline with these new rules are rather stupid.

Edited by Dark-Mage, 30 June 2008 - 06:56 AM.

[CTHULHU007]

Me and a fellow 1st edition AD&D player made a prediction a long time ago when Bastards of the Coast turned our beloved game into a pile of shite. We predicted they would make a 3.5 a 4.0 ..and onward just so the kids that had no idea what they missed with the old beloved ruleset would HAVE to buy more and more of their spewed out crap. It's a money thing. WOTC didn't care about AD&D OR the players..they cared about money..so they turned it into Diablo and make new editions, because they do not give a shite about the players. They didn't care about the 1st Edition players..or the 2nd edition(that was bad enough)..they don't even care about current players unless they buy their (new improved) rulesets every couple of years.
It's a scam in the extreme and I pity people that buy into it. If your rich and have no idea what AD&D was once upon a time you probably do not and will never care. That's ok. You didn't witness them turn CHESS into CHECKERS for blatant profit margins.
We KNEW though..it is DOCUMENTED what we said. Now it's happening..over and over..3.0..an expansion for 3.0 ..3.5...now 4.0 edition. AD&D ..the REAL AD&D was never meant to change "editions" every couple of years to scam kids out of their money.

Blow me off if you want ye fans of TUrd edition and WOTC. I am however absolutely irreversibly RIGHT no matter what you may troll at me.
Change is not always good people. In fact change many times outright SUCKS. I stopped playing PnP AD&D a long time ago when they destroyed AD&D. Only sometimes now do me and the old group get together to play REAL 1st Edition AD&D. Your not playing Dungeons & Dragons anymore fellows. Your playing Diablos & Dragons and also playing right into the WOTC corporate money making scam. HOW MUCH DOES ANYONE WANT TO BET THEY KEEP ON WITH THEIR NEW "EDITIONS" JUST SO YOU THAT KIDS CAN KEEP BLINDLY BUYING IT BECAUSE...well because..it's new..and shiney..huhuh uhuhuh . I am proud to say their are still plenty of 1st edition players around online me being one of them. Most of the old players see the truth of things.

That's my word. There is no sense arguing it. It's the truth. Some like to be taken and rammed in the arse with a hot poker to spit out money for shiney beads. Not me. Not ever. May WOTC go bankrupt and DIE..that would be a GREAT day in history. Do any of you actually think they CARE about what you think? LAUGH MY ASS OFF. WOTC reminds me of that cable commercial where they are talking about just getting new customers with DISPOSABLE INCOME because the old ones didn't like them. Aye..that's what they are. DAMN them...and I can't say much for people that support them blindly either. Most of you have no comprehension of what I am speaking of or why I am still angry. Especially the younger of you. It's the chess to checkers analogy. Chess...a GREAT game..what dumbass FOOL would ever think of changing it to checkers. WOTC would.
End of Line.

Edited by CTHULHU007, 19 July 2008 - 06:10 PM.

[arguskos]

I don't like 4th much, it's true. However, I have decent reasons to not like it, instead of just claiming WoTC is a bunch of money-grabbing crap heads. Can you fault them for wanting to make money? I can't, and as much as I dislike the direction D&D 4th ed. has taken, I can understand it. It's the new D&D for the new age, and that's fine. My only objection is, well, what about the old-timers? The players who grew up with 1st and 2nd edition? These changes are a step away from D&D's illustrious past, and towards the MMO-era of gaming (not saying D&D is an MMO now, but it shares a bit more with them now than it used to, that's all I'm sayin'). I feel a little betrayed. Sure, 3.5 wasn't perfect, no one is saying that (and if they are, then they're probably a little deluded), but, there are better ways to fix it's issues then by replacing them with new, different issues. 4th edition could have been so much more I think, more than a set of combat rules anyways, and it wasn't, and that's what disappointed me the most. *shrug*

I guess some old-timers will enjoy the new, streamlined combat system. It's a nice combat system, to be sure, and I'm stealing a few choice bits from it for my "3.75" homebrew, but, I wanted 4th edition to be about more than the combat. I wanted rules that actually emphasized roleplaying, and made it more than a sidenote. This was 3.5's biggest flaw, IMO: it was about the STUFF. You had to have the best gear to face the toughest foes, which, while logical, was a little restrictive, since some players forgot about their character as a person, and looked at them as a set of numbers, which isn't the idea of the game. 4th seems to shift the focus from the gear to the abilities, while not really addressing the underlying flaw: it's not about the numbers, no matter how well they may work. It's about the stories, the interactions, the characters at the table.

Just my $.02. (Also, for record, I've been playing D&D since I was 5 years old, so, well before 3rd edition was released (I turn 20 in October), so, I've been working on my opinions for 14 years now. I figure that gives me a little experience. )

-argus

[leahnkain]

I haven't played DnD since 2nd edition, I read the 3rd edition books and I have to admit it was too big of change. Now 4th edition...it doesn't look like DnD anymore. It seems the magic of the old rules and modules are lost. If you noticed DnD declined in popularity when they introduced 2nd edition. I liked 2nd edition a lot but many gamers didn't like it. I remember the articles back in 1988. If WoTC were truly money grabbing they would bring back the older editions or the red basic books to appeal to the beginning gamer and market all of the books at once.
Now there are too many rules for people to easily learn the game and it is a huge investment for a 10 year old. I remember getting a boxed set of basic back in 1980! The rules were easy to learn.It was $12.00, I still have the box with the original price tag. It came with the rules for the player and DM, dice and a module(keep on the borderlands) Now, I think dice alone cost $12.00. I guess this is where TSR went wrong, the changed editions to screw people out of royalities and began the "you don't really need but it's kind of important to have suppliment books". 4th edition has less appeal then 3rd for me. I guess that is why I haven't gamed in 10 years.

[CTHULHU007]

I haven't played DnD since 2nd edition, I read the 3rd edition books and I have to admit it was too big of change. Now 4th edition...it doesn't look like DnD anymore. It seems the magic of the old rules and modules are lost. If you noticed DnD declined in popularity when they introduced 2nd edition. I liked 2nd edition a lot but many gamers didn't like it. I remember the articles back in 1988. If WoTC were truly money grabbing they would bring back the older editions or the red basic books to appeal to the beginning gamer and market all of the books at once.
Now there are too many rules for people to easily learn the game and it is a huge investment for a 10 year old. I remember getting a boxed set of basic back in 1980! The rules were easy to learn.It was $12.00, I still have the box with the original price tag. It came with the rules for the player and DM, dice and a module(keep on the borderlands) Now, I think dice alone cost $12.00. I guess this is where TSR went wrong, the changed editions to screw people out of royalities and began the "you don't really need but it's kind of important to have suppliment books". 4th edition has less appeal then 3rd for me. I guess that is why I haven't gamed in 10 years.

I have played AD&D and Basic D&D since the early 80's. I know the whole story behind the deal..the takeover by that rich bitch..Cook's involement in trying to erase Gygax's name from the game in the bastardized 2nd edition..which was really only a rehash of 1st with several class screwovers. When WOTC aquired production and rights from Hasborg after rich BITCH sold it to them and 3rd/TUrd edition came out it was all over for serious ROLL players. The person above you asked what was wrong with making a little money...why nothing at all as long as you TAKE CARE OF YOUR CUSTOMERS AND PLAYERS. What WOTC did was say "Screw you guys we will make our own game and we will sell it to a NEW group of customers if you don't like it...and it doesn't MATTER if you don't like it because WE DON'T CARE. That's one reason it's wrong in this case. Another is they keep pumping out shite and revisions JUST to make money. They do not care that people will have to buy completely new rulesets from them. In fact that is EXACTLY what they count on.
They also LOVED Diablo, because that is the ruleset. Diablo & Dragons. It sucks. 3.0 sucked. 3.5 sucked. 4.0 sucked. Checkers for kids not real ROLL players like us of the 80's generation. EXPENSIVE checkers btw ..with MANY revisions so you MUST buy them. Your not supposed to ..how should I put it...editionize your games. Do we have 2nd and 3rd edition Chess? NO. It's a pathetic ploy to squeeze more income from people in the name of D&D even though it no longer is AD&D at all. DAMN them.

Edited by CTHULHU007, 19 July 2008 - 11:10 PM.

[leahnkain]

CTHULHU007, I completely agree with you. Luckily I do have all of the 1st edition books if I ever got the urge to play. (DnD pretty much doesn't exist in Japan so finding players could be a problem.) You should try the TC for BG, Classic Adventures. A lot of the 1st editions modules are there to enjoy once again.

[CTHULHU007]

CTHULHU007, I completely agree with you. Luckily I do have all of the 1st edition books if I ever got the urge to play. (DnD pretty much doesn't exist in Japan so finding players could be a problem.) You should try the TC for BG, Classic Adventures. A lot of the 1st editions modules are there to enjoy once again.

Good to know there are those here of logical minds..those that know how SO much better the game once was. I have a friend(no it's not me) that has every single piece of 1st edition material..rulebooks..dragon mags..dungeon mags..modules..etc. He's still into it online Play By Email games. I myself have all the old rulebooks..and the original 1st edition Forgotten Realms box set as well as some modules.

EDIT: I just wanted to add to the other member above that liked 3rd...I've been playing off and on for 24 years at least. So that does give me plenty of experience. I know the entire backstorys of the downfall of AD&D. It's a sad and angering story. WOTC will always be scum scamming assholes. The game you play is not AD&D just to be clear.

Edited by CTHULHU007, 20 July 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[Bluenose]

I don't object to discussion of 4th edition, and I certainly think that people who dislike it have a right to post their opinions here. I would like to ask people to avoid emotive arguments, and to avoid unnecessary use of phrases such as "scum scamming assholes" and "money-grabbing crap heads". This doesn't make your argument better, and may have offend people who haven't made their minds up as well as those who have. Given the number of places I've seen any discussion of 4th edition turn into a contest of name calling, I'd prefer to avoid it here if possible. If you've any queries about this, feel free to contact me by PM about it, and I'll get back in touch as soon as I can.

[CTHULHU007]

Good thing I'm not flaming members. I'm flaming WOTC those that DESERVE to be flamed.
For the record I do not get into "flame wars" on boards. I have quite the experience with boards. Although the use of vulgar language is not my usual means of argument..or pointing something out ..I do find it satisfying calling people for what they are on occasion. My points/arguments were made in other ways in the process. The insults to WOTC were just icing on the cake...also a simple minded way of telling the truth.