180 replies to this topic

[Tempest]

Considering Thay and Halruua are magocracies (along with Rasheman and, to a lesser extent, Aglarond), they will probably no longer exist as we know them, though they might be ruled by secretive cabals of the remaining spellcasters. Still, it's hard to have an entire nation controlled by arcane spellcasters after the Spellplague, and the entire eastern end of Faerun will probably be in catastrophic upheaval.

Cyric's church is probably in decline, if it hasn't collapsed outright. I'd expect more Cyricists to go to other faiths, most likely including Bane, Mask, Shar, and maybe Velsharoon and Gargauth.

Bane definitely stands a fair amount to gain from the death of Mystra-she's one of the most powerful good deities in the Realms, and killing her removes a major obstacle from his plans. Most of the other evil deities would probably be rejoicing at Mystra's death for the same reason.

Selune and Azuth are the most likely candidates for the care of the Weave with Mystra dead-with Azuth MIA on the astral plane, I'd see Selune as being likely to take up the job, as well as Savras' portfolio. If so, Selune will definitely rise to the status of a greater power, and with Shar on the rise, it seems easy to imagine their war being more intense than usual. If not Selune, then there are some other possibilities-Oghma and Deneir aren't hard to imagine as potential applicants for the deity of magic. They're the only other obvious candidates, though-adding magic to the portfolio of any other deity would be a major change to that deity.

With Helm confirmed dead, I'd expect either Torm or Tyr to take his portfolio.

If Netheril is rising again, the Auranoch will probably be the center of it-putting Silverymoon, Evereska, and more in the direct shadow of the new power. Combined with the Spellplague and the kind of arcane power a new Netheril would almost certainly have... lots of possibilities, most of them ugly.

[Azkyroth]

And I still don't think, even with Shar's help, Cyric could have pulled this all off. Someone else is in on this too, but I can't imagine any of the other gods joining in on this. They don't seem to stand to gain too much from all of this.

I can certainly think of someone whose plans might culminate in something like this: the Triad falling apart, Cyric banished and his portfolio, if not precisely up for grabs, certainly a lot closer, Helm dead, Tyr grief-stricken, the realms in chaos, hundreds of thousands dead, certain mages possibly dead or at least reeling, and Shar probably facing consequences in her own right for her involvement in Mystra's death. Of course, this particular person would have to still be alive at this point (possible based on the mod outcome) and probably would need to have gained divinity to make it work (I wonder how Gargauth is doing these days....)

[vilkacis]

Larloch for new god of magic, dammit! He's better qualified than most, and he's pretty much divine already.



although Karsus and Ioulaum would totally hand him his bony arse if they cared enough

What I really don't get. Netheril back? How? There is now little magic... netheril was a magic nation...

Magic works in other worlds, without a Weave. Basically the Weave is a GUI and now the mages of Faerun need to learn how to hack teh matrix oldskool style yo, fo shizzle. Given that some people were clever enough to survive the fall of Netheril, I wouldn't be surprised if they're the first to adapt to the new circumstances.

Not to mention, with Mystra and the Weave gone... does that mean Mystra's ban on 10th+ level magic is gone now? Probably a good thing Halaster is gone, in that case. Anyone else want to know what he'd do with a 12th-level spell?

My guess would be /.../ Shar

YESPLZ! We've had a pansy Good one for a long time now, in with the evil!

EEEVIL! \m/_>_<_\m/

And I still don't think, even with Shar's help, Cyric could have pulled this all off.

Eh, Shar is pretty damn powerful, and Cyric is pretty good at what he does. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think it'd be impossible for them to succeed.

Edited by vilkacis, 14 November 2007 - 06:14 PM.

[VIIIofSwords]

Eh, Shar is pretty damn powerful, and Cyric is pretty good at what he does. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think it'd be impossible for them to succeed.

Guess so. I just always figured the gods were near-unstoppable in their home planes. Then again, stranger stuff has happened in the Realms. Couldn't have been easy, though.

Magic works in other worlds, without a Weave. Basically the Weave is a GUI and now the mages of Faerun need to learn how to hack teh matrix oldskool style yo, fo shizzle. Given that some people were clever enough to survive the fall of Netheril, I wouldn't be surprised if they're the first to adapt to the new circumstances.

I wouldn't be surprised if the survivors of Netheril didn't bother with the Weave at all after the Fall. I imagine they'd spent time figuring out how to do magic without the Weave, refined it all this time, and waited for the right time to strike. Cyric, Shar, and whoever else just gave them their opening.

And I second Larloch for the new deity of magic!

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 14 November 2007 - 06:25 PM.

[Azkyroth]

Any thoughts on my idea of multiple deities responsible for magic rather than one over-arching being?

[Tempest]

Unlikely-Ao doesn't like multiple deities sharing the same portfolio. Garagos/Tempus for war is about as far as he stretches it.

[vilkacis]

Guess so. I just always figured the gods were near-unstoppable in their home planes.

Pretty much, but a greater god is near unstoppable anywhere, and Shar&Cyric's portfolios are excellently suited to the job. With Cyric's "murder, lies, deception and illusion" and Shar's "forgetfulness and unrevealed secret", and they'll never see it coming.

But no, I don't expect it was easy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the survivors of Netheril didn't bother with the Weave at all after the Fall. I imagine they'd spent time figuring out how to do magic without the Weave, refined it all this time, and waited for the right time to strike. Cyric, Shar, and whoever else just gave them their opening.

That would be pretty awesome, actually. I have no idea how non-Weave magic works in Faerun, though.

And I second Larloch for the new deity of magic!

Good. That means you get to live.

Any thoughts on my idea of multiple deities responsible for magic rather than one over-arching being?

Well, it works for clerics, and last thing I heard was that mages in the Dragonlance draw power from different sources based on alignment, so it'd definitely work. And actually, given that the god of magic is going to be pretty much the most powerful deity except Ao (and iirc, only barely less powerful than Ao, if Greenwood is to be believed, which I guess he is), it might even be a good idea to spread it a bit thinner. I'm guessing it'd prevent something similar from happening again, too, unless all the mage-gods got offed at the same time. Ao might make an exception this time, in the interest of not having to clean up a similar mess in the near future.

[VIIIofSwords]

Agreed, it would be unlikely for more than one being to be in charge of all magic. However, magic in a setting like this does tend to be over-arching. I do think the aspects of magic need to be divided among different gods, but again, Ao is unlikely to allow that.

The craziest way to go about this would probably be to assign one god with the appropriate portfolio a school of magic. That way, no single deity controls all that power and, if they re-establish the Weave, you'd have to worry about multiple gods tending to it.

That would be pretty awesome, actually. I have no idea how non-Weave magic works in Faerun, though.

No idea here, either, but there are probably ideas floating out there on how this can be done. A friend said that, if magic in FR can be made out like the Force from Star Wars, non-Weave magic might be interpreted as subtly influencing it, rather than outright controlling it.

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 14 November 2007 - 06:53 PM.

[Azkyroth]

Agreed, it would be unlikely for more than one being to be in charge of all magic. However, magic in a setting like this does tend to be over-arching. I do think the aspects of magic need to be divided among different gods, but again, Ao is unlikely to allow that.

The craziest way to go about this would probably be to assign one god with the appropriate portfolio a school of magic. That way, no single deity controls all that power and, if they re-establish the Weave, you'd have to worry about multiple gods tending to it.

Of course, with the Weave gone, it might cease to make sense to even approach magic as a singular thing that one god could control.

No idea here, either, but there are probably ideas floating out there on how this can be done. A friend said that, if magic in FR can be made out like the Force from Star Wars, non-Weave magic might be interpreted as subtly influencing it, rather than outright controlling it.

I suspect non-weave magic would be much less "ritualized" (prescribed material and somatic and verbal components and so on) and more of a personal approach type thing...

Edited by Azkyroth, 14 November 2007 - 07:14 PM.

[VIIIofSwords]

Of course, with the Weave gone, it might cease to make sense to even approach magic as a singular thing that one god could control.

True, but leaving magic uncontrolled might lead to a catastrophe similar to Karsus' Folly all over again. It probably isn't likely now, but given time, some mage is going to have the right combination of raw talent and utter stupidity to try something like that.

Now I have this notion of what the Realms would be like if Ao decided to do away with arcane spellcasting entirely. I mean, he's had what, 3 goddesses of magic die on him? If I were him, I'd start thinking it just wasn't worth the trouble anymore.

People should probably be glad I'm not Ao.

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 14 November 2007 - 07:27 PM.

[Azkyroth]

Having one goddess of magic and having no control of it aren't the only options. A committee would solve many of the problems here.

[VIIIofSwords]

So very true. Besides that, the internal bickering between the possible committee members would be entertaining.

[Tempest]

It all depends on just how the magic system will work in 4E, near as I can tell, which there hasn't been any official word on.

Oh, and whoever mentioned Garagos as being in Tempus' court in 4E-not very likely. Garagos and Tempus are mortal enemies. I'd see Tempus' court, as it were, being Red Knight, Valkur, Uthgar, and not sure who (if anyone) else.

Other possible courts:

Oghma's Court
Deneir, Gond, Milil

Tyr's Court
Ilmater, Torm, Nobanion, Tymora (since they're lovers now)

Silvanus' Court
Mielikki, Eldath, Shiallia, Gwaeron Windstrom

Selune's Court
Lurue, Shaundakul, Finder Wyvernspur, possibly Waukeen

Sune's Court
Lliira, Sharess, Siamorphe, possibly Waukeen

Bane's Court
Talona, Loviatar, Gargauth

Talos' Court
Auril, Malar, Umberlee

Shar's Court
Mask, Beshaba

Oddball deities:

Garagos: No clue where he'd fit in, unless he finally slips into CE, in which case he might end up with Talos and company, representing war and battle-lust as an element of nature.

Hoar: Depends on who wins the battle for his nature-Tyr or Shar.

Lathander and Chauntea: Both greater deities, but I can't see either one submitting to another's court. They might form their own court of sorts without lesser deities.

Kelemvor: Served by Jergal, but basically the same situation as Lathander and Chauntea-a greater deity whom, with the death of Mystra, has no true allies save Jergal, who's simply a fading demipower and might not exist in 4E.

Elemental Lords: Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, and Istishia have probably survived just fine on the elemental planes.

Speculation: Lathander, Chauntea, and Kelemvor might form a council of sorts, independent of the courts and the internal squabbling thereof-possibly the chief arbitrators between the good/neutral deities.

[Kellen]

On the note of Multiple gods of magic. I could assume they could make it work. Afterall Mulhurand has three gods of magic, Isis, Thoth, and Set(for good, neutral, and evil). Why they couldn't do that elsewhere is beyond me.

And on another thought. How are clerics being affected, or is clerical magic not going to be affected?

[VIIIofSwords]

No word on how clerics would be affected, with the possible exception of Cyric's, with him being under house arrest and all. I'm still holding out for confirmation on what "house arrest" for a god actually means.

There's been some speculation among D&Ders around the Philippines that Divine magic might take a hit, at least if the rumors of Intermediate and Lesser Powers losing a bit of their power are true. Not sure where that information came from, though. I suspect that if the whole magic system is to be overhauled, clerics would be affected as well.

Edited by VIIIofSwords, 14 November 2007 - 09:44 PM.

[Azkyroth]

I would think Valkur would be more likely to fall in with Selune (last I read Tempus and the Red Knight were trying to get him to focus on naval conflicts but he was more interested in sailors and adventure), and Waukeen with Sune.

Also, did Bane actually spring back to greater power status after his resurrection? That strikes me as distinctly odd given that most of his cult was split between Xvim and Cyric, and in 2E/3E the power of gods was based on their worshippers, as I recall...

[VIIIofSwords]

Didn't all former Bane clergy get some sort of message from Bane prior to his resurrection? And I think he took control of Xvim's church in the process, effectively giving him a starting point on the path to regaining his greater godhood.

[Tempest]

Yes, Bane's back to greater power status-he immediately absorbed Xvim's church, since Xvim was dead, and quickly amassed his former power from dissenting faithful of Cyric and other evil deities who returned to Bane.

Hoar might end up with Tempus if he's still LN, but I could easily see 4E making him make the big choice between good and evil. If he decided to remain seperate, though, he'd fit well with Tempus and Red Knight.

In the event the deity of magic position splits along alignment lines, Talos actually makes a strong case for the holder of the evil lord of magic-he represents the wild and destructive side of the world, and after the Spellplague could easily claim that magic falls under his portfolio.

On the other hand, we might see it split along another method-each school of magic goes to a seperate deity, possibly with the elemental lords claiming lordship over magic making use of their respective element.

[Azkyroth]

Additional note: Gargauth's home plane is the Prime Material and from what I've read he seems to be against pretty much everyone, so it seems unlikely that he'd have joined Bane's court willingly...

[Tempest]

Gargauth is also the deity of corruption (in the political sense) and the like, so if things were sufficiently dire (i.e. the planar upheaval), I could easily see him entering into an extremely loose alliance of sorts with Bane-the kind where both are using the other, constantly stabbing each other in the back, and so on and so forth.

However, there are potential problems with the elemental lords-I've heard rumors that the elementals are basically being reshuffled into another type of demon/devil and so on-the planes as a whole seem to be getting simplified. We might be down to demons, devils, and elementals, with the yugoloths, obyriths, greater hags, and so on being left in the ashes of 2nd and 3rd editions. Thus, the elemental lords might turn evil or cease to exist altogether-Akadi's portfolio would likely be appropriated by Shandakul or Talos, Istishia's by Valkur or Umberlee, Kossuth's by Lathander, and Grumbar's by Silvanus.