180 replies to this topic

[Deathsangel]

We're running an evil party that we know is doomed to self-destruction, if only because our 2 clerics come from Bane and Cyric. But we figure why not take down the "old man with a pointy hat" before we take ourselves down?

Sounds fun. I used a rather large sphere of annihilation to do the job in my setting, but your mileage may vary. Luring him into a dead magic zone may also work well.

I don't thank that matters. After all, he needs to relearn how to cast his spells as well.

And yeah DM'ed an evil party before. And The Chosen a form of good Bhaalspawn, now there is nice twist if I ever saw one

Edited by Deathsangel, 17 November 2007 - 01:29 AM.

[Rabain]

The way is being laid for the return of Amaunator.

All rejoice!

[NiGHTMARE]

IIRC one of the abilities of the chosen of Mystra is being able to cast spells from a dead magic zone, so even if you could lure Elminster to one you'd be in for a rather nasty surprise .

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 November 2007 - 02:44 AM.

[Bluenose]

I've just realised (well, yesterday while in conversation with someone else) what the whole situation with regards to 4E D&D and FR reminds me of. For me at least it's a reprise of the situation when GDW replaced Megatraveller with Traveller: The New Era. They not only changed the rules quite significantly, although they retained the same ideas as a core, the also made a big change to the setting, in this case the Third Imperium and it's successor states. There's already been several big events that affected the setting, but this was by far the biggest. And it created a huge amount of controversy among the fan base too, at a level which exceeded anything I've seen anywhere about 4E.

A few years later after GDW collapsed for mostly unrelated reasons, Traveller 4th Edition came out and seemed to quite deliberately revert back to mechanics similar to those in Classic Traveller and Megatraveller. So perhaps 5th edition D&D will have seven classes, Fighter, Magic User, Priest, Thief, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling

[VIIIofSwords]

A few years later after GDW collapsed for mostly unrelated reasons, Traveller 4th Edition came out and seemed to quite deliberately revert back to mechanics similar to those in Classic Traveller and Megatraveller. So perhaps 5th edition D&D will have seven classes, Fighter, Magic User, Priest, Thief, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling

Oh gods, I can just see it now. I doubt it'll come to that, though. I mean, sure the rumors are pretty drastic right now, but they can't change everything that much, I think. Then again, I suppose what happens is going to just go in one direction: where the money is. What they're doing may alienate older players, but the simpler system just might attract the MMORPG crowd. Probably won't hold on to them for very long, considering the IQ points of the average MMORPG player.

And The Chosen a form of good Bhaalspawn, now there is nice twist if I ever saw one

Almost seems like a workable concept for a game, don't you think? Too bad there just aren't enough Chosen, unless Mystra has Chosen who are neither aware of what they are or have awakened to their special status. Highly unlikely.

Sounds fun. I used a rather large sphere of annihilation to do the job in my setting, but your mileage may vary. Luring him into a dead magic zone may also work well.

So far, we can't seem to agree on how to find him, let alone how to do him in. I blame our leader, a highly charismatic, certifiably insane Elven fighter, who firmly believes Elminster's turned himself into a woman.

[Azkyroth]

So perhaps 5th edition D&D will have seven classes, Fighter, Magic User, Priest, Thief, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling

Perish the thought. *loads diaper into crossbow* ...and the thinker. O.o

[Chevalier]

So far, we can't seem to agree on how to find him, let alone how to do him in. I blame our leader, a highly charismatic, certifiably insane Elven fighter, who firmly believes Elminster's turned himself into a woman.

He's done it before.

Oh gods, I can just see it now. I doubt it'll come to that, though. I mean, sure the rumors are pretty drastic right now, but they can't change everything that much, I think. Then again, I suppose what happens is going to just go in one direction: where the money is. What they're doing may alienate older players, but the simpler system just might attract the MMORPG crowd. Probably won't hold on to them for very long, considering the IQ points of the average MMORPG player.

They hope not to hold them long, that way when they bring out the bright shinny new 5e D&D they will come back and not be mad that very thing has changed.

Edited by Chevalier, 17 November 2007 - 05:41 PM.

[oralpain]

I haven't even considered playing PnP D&D in the Forgotten Realms set much after the original 1988 grey box. The inflation in 2nd and 3rd edition was disgusting, IMO.

However, from what I've read so far the 4th edition realms may actually be worth using. I would of course have to do a bit of conversion to make it fully compatable with my game (90% 2e, 9% 1e, 1% house rules).

[aVENGER]

And the mystery race is finally revealed (well sort of). It's... *drumroll* Lizardmen Dragonborn.

Hmm, I wonder how this will affect the FRCS.

[Bluenose]

And the mystery race is finally revealed (well sort of). It's... *drumroll* Lizardmen Dragonborn.

Hmm, I wonder how this will affect the FRCS.

Actually I think it is Lizardmen, just with a 'cool' name. At least, that's the impression I got from reading the article. Whether they develop fire-breathing and wings as racial abilities later will decide between whether I denounce them as an abomination and the spawn of Beelzebubble, or tolerate them as a pretty normal race.

If they're more like lizardmen then I think they'd be quite acceptable in the Realms, since there's quite a lot of places that they live. There are even mercenary companies including lizardmen (the Servants of the Royal Egg?). If they're more draconic that's harder, although there are some areas where it might not be inappropriate such as Chessenta and parts of Unther. I think either version could work in Eberron, probably quite sensibly, though neither has had much attention.

At least it's not another elven sub-race.

[Deathsangel]

I don't think another Elf-subrace was the idea.

It gives me more the feeling that indeed WoTC is going to the MMORPG way. With 'OMG!! L33t race, I am born from a dragon, demon, outsider' thing (dragonborn, tiefling, Eladrin (don't know how much outsider they will stay though)).

Though I am not heavily against a Lizardfolk race or so, heck I allowed them already normally, it is just goes to show the general feel they are heading - a more over the top thing, alike Iron Kingdoms (though that doesn't have the cool parents thing, but the over top classes I mean).

Well, as it stands now, I think we will have to see how much they alienate old players and how much MMORPG they will gain. This will in the end show if it was a good move or not. After all, we may not like it, but it could be good for the company and it could be more public, which I assume is nice if more people are having fun.

[Lord Ernie]

Personally, I don't see the connection between Dragonborn and MMORPG, but that might just be me. Judging the race before you've even seen its qualities or design is also rather... prejudiced, IMO. That's not to say I like the sound of 'Dragonborn', but if they end up being the half-orc of the standard races (ie: very specialized, and a player can expect trouble for his char if he takes it) for 4th, and not too over-the-top (no wings, firebreathing or anything like that) I say: why not?

[Tempest]

I think I agree with Ernie here, though I'm having strong flashbacks to the Dracon race of the Wizardry series (human/dragon hybrids-fairly powerful breath attack but nothing else). I'd have preferred they just be called Lizardmen or something like that, but what else can you expect from a company that's making tieflings a base race?

[Deathsangel]

Personally, I don't see the connection between Dragonborn and MMORPG, but that might just be me. Judging the race before you've even seen its qualities or design is also rather... prejudiced, IMO. That's not to say I like the sound of 'Dragonborn', but if they end up being the half-orc of the standard races (ie: very specialized, and a player can expect trouble for his char if he takes it) for 4th, and not too over-the-top (no wings, firebreathing or anything like that) I say: why not?

Hm... you are right. The assumption is not based on true facts, more on half clues. The fact of the Tieflings (they are creating races with 'cool ancestor' leads), the direction it went with the Dragon Shaman, the call of some people for such a race due to general feel people have for dragons, their name, the drawings that do not look like lizardmen (see further in the link provided by aVenger, you can see the discussion on it and I don't know if you seen these, but they look rather like the half-dragons (though less scaly) of MM, than lizardmen);
Still after all said and done it is circumstances I say this on, and as I tend to be (here and Gleemax) a person that says to many to ease up with the discussion and that you can decide for your own what you want... Guess my tiredness is even showing here I apoligize.
I still stand by my point if it indeed becomes flying/breath weapon/true dragon blood stuff it is in my humble opinion a bit too far, and I stand by the people that call for the 'normal' stuff to be in PHB and the more exotic ones later.

Edit:

My biggest problem with it is one of convenience. This is the first time in the history of D&D that I don't feel comfortable with turning absolutely everything in the PHB loose with the players, and that I couldn't find everything in the PHB usable in almost any D&D campaign I'd choose to run. The PHB will be sufficiently "non-vanilla" that I feel like I'll have to have a list saying, "you can't use this, this, and this in my new campaign" instead of saying, "you can use the PHB, and these parts of the following supplement books."

Reading again I found this said by a person. I actually think that very well defines why I dislike the changes. As said I have even DM a person with a Blackscale Lizard as race... Guess I am slightly a hypocrite for that, but pls just not in PHB... it just gives me, personally, a feel they are indeed going into a more forced high fantasy world (instead of the difference between them when you look at the huge difference between Dark Sun (though this setting has some odd races of its own, I have to agree) and Planar Setting for instance), along with a (and that is straight from a WoTC member) pull in the settings to a more "points of light" style of play. It just seems they are pushing a bit into much a generalisation in rules and a general feel of getting all the settings more alike... I personally enjoyed the diversity of it all.

Edited by Deathsangel, 26 November 2007 - 07:22 AM.

[Rabain]

Are these the same lizard/draconians that appear in NWN?

That'd be lame.

[Bluenose]

Are these the same lizard/draconians that appear in NWN?

That'd be lame.

Honestly, I don't think anyone really knows yet. But a race of lizardfolk, big, tough, slightly 'primitive' types wouldn't be a bad thing in my view.



Two other things that have come up recently that I don't think have been mentioned before.


Paladins can now be of any alignment. While the principle isn't necessarily a bad one, as I'd expect evil gods (and chaotic ones for that matter) to have their own holy warriors, I hope they change the name and ensure that they aren't all alike in the abilities they gain. Perhaps a mention that LG holy warriors are often known as paladins to retain the name.


Feats are going to change significantly, according to a WotC article. A lot of things that were previously feats are now going to be abilities restricted to particular classes. One example given was Spring Attack, which "looked an awful lot like a power for the rogue or melee-based ranger". There were others listed in various places including things like Whirlwind Attack, Shot on the Run, and Two-Weapon Fighting. Feats become more a matter of fine tuning than before, though that makes it sound like there's only a limited range of class powers. The examples given included Toughness, which now gives +3hp and +1hp at every subsequent level.

[Lord Ernie]

*nods* I just read up on that, too. I'm not really sure whether I like it or not, much will be dependant on the execution. Feats were the major strength and at the same time a big weakness in third, bringing both customization and oftentimes awkward restrictions in one big package.

The problem here, of course, is that feats should not cease being cool, or influential; if they become superfluous and don't really differentiate one character from the next, I feel they're taking a step backwards, to where any level 15 fighter is basically the same as another level 15 fighter. While it's true one should individualise one's character through RP, having abilities that fit the character (as opposed to having the same generic abilities as every other guy in your class) makes it all the sweeter.

If they are, on the other hand, cool but not omnipotent; meaningful to choose from, with non-trivial choices along the way; and work well in differentiating one character from the next... then we're talking.

Edited by Lord Ernie, 28 November 2007 - 06:59 AM.

[Bluenose]

*nods* I just read up on that, too. I'm not really sure whether I like it or not, much will be dependant on the execution. Feats were the major strength and at the same time a big weakness in third, bringing both customization and oftentimes awkward restrictions in one big package.

The problem here, of course, is that feats should not cease being cool, or influential; if they become superfluous and don't really differentiate one character from the next, I feel they're taking a step backwards, to where any level 15 fighter is basically the same as another level 15 fighter. While it's true one should individualise one's character through RP, having abilities that fit the character (as opposed to having the same generic abilities as every other guy in your class) makes it all the sweeter.

If they are, on the other hand, cool but not omnipotent; meaningful to choose from, with non-trivial choices along the way; and work well in differentiating one character from the next... then we're talking.

QFT

Execution will be the most important thing. I certainly like the way Toughness works compared to the 3.x version. It's not overpowering but it retains some value as you level up. The Golden Wyvern Adept ability is pretty much the old Archmage Mastery of Shaping ability, and comes at the same general level range, but it's now available to any spellcaster willing to pay for it with a feat, which I think my druid PCs will like when they cast some of their nastier spells. Even Alertness looks as if it remains useful - not so much the bonuses to your Perception skill as the lack of a disadvantage in the surprise round. This is the first article that's really made me think, "Yes, I want to try that."

[VIIIofSwords]

Interesting news on the feats and what possible adjustments might be made. I might want to try this out as well, but I've decided to reserve judgment for the changes when the books start coming out.

[Bluenose]

There's now a Smite article up for paladin fans. It looks like Smite will be once per encounter, rather than x/day. You'll also be able to give a benefit to some of your allies at the same time as you smite an opponent. Here's the text for three different sample smites:

Safeguard Smite
Paladin 1
Encounter ? Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha.
Hit or Miss: An ally within 5 squares gains a bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom modifier until the end of your next turn.

This basic, entry-level smite has all the things a growing paladin needs to fulfill its role and lay down some hurt. A Charisma attack against the target's Armor Class, safeguard smite deals double her base weapon's damage plus her Charisma modifier in damage (paladins are a force of personality, after all), and grants a quick boost to an ally in trouble (including, in a pinch, the paladin herself). And there you have it. Your first smite -- simple, serviceable, and fun.

As your paladin progresses as a defender of the faith, smites, like all of your abilities, grow in power and utility. But unlike its defender cousin, the fighter, a paladin is more than just the guy who kicks butt and makes sure enemies focus (or want to focus) on him. Paladins have always been able to heal in some way and the 4th Edition variety is no different. Though this splash of leader flavor into the paladin's defender role comes in many forms, one of the more active and interesting ways that your paladin can come to the aid of a companion while fighting is our second example of a smite:

Renewing Smite
Paladin 13
Encounter ? Healing, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. AC
Hit: 2x[W] + Cha damage and ally within 5 heals 10 + your Wisdom modifier damage.

You'll no doubt see the pattern between these two smites. They mix a fair portion of damage (scaled up by level, but not necessarily the amount of dice) while giving an ally a much needed boost of hit points at the most opportune moments. Selfish paladins (typically those who serve more self-centered gods or just the occasional egoist who venerates Pelor) can even heal themselves with the strike, as you're considered your own ally unless the effect of a power states otherwise.

Let's move on to smites that inhabit the levels over 20. Binding smite is another flavor of defender smite -- and as its high level demands, does the defender job more effectively, and thus more powerfully than the simple safeguard smite does.

Binding Smite
Paladin 27
Encounter ? Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2x[W] + Wis damage and target cannot gain line of effect to anyone but you until the end of your next turn.

In binding smite you can see an example of how the effect of a smite goes up with level, while the numbers in their base form seem similar when not taking into account the accuracy and damage boosts that merely gaining levels (and having better weapons) affords. It just gets ? well, better. Heck, it's epic, after all, so it has to be good, and you don't have to have 4th Edition books in front of you to realize line of effect denial is good. When you're fighting balor, ancient blue dragons, and sorrowsworn, it had better be good -- those critters don't fool around!

I suspect a typo in the last one, since the others have a + Cha damage rather than + Wis.

The most interesting thing to me is that the Attacks are listed as Charisma vs (AC/Will). That's definitely new, and makes a Paladin's charisma stat even more powerful than before. Adding a bonus to allies after you smite does seem a little odd, though I suppose the first and last are justifiable because you're focusing attention on yourself, though healing an ally by smiting enemies is a little bizarre.