90 replies to this topic

[Kulyok]

I just read this post in The Big World Project thread:

1. Download the mods. They are bundled in several big packages, that contain all the needed files according to the guide.

I believe the installs in question are linked to in this thread, as well as the project's documentation:
http://kerzenburg.ni...mp;postcount=13

Folks, if you have any of my content in this download folders - Xan NPC, Tiax NPC, Xan Friendship Path, Dungeon Crawl
and Romantic Encounters(since I'm the mod's maintainer), - and it seems that you do, please, remove it from the download. You're certainly free to document anything you like, and I appreciate that, but I'd like the players to be able to download the mods *only* from authorized mirrors.

Please, contact Domi and cmorgan at G3 if you'd like to mirror BG1 NPC Project.

I am opening this topic instead of PM'ing, since I know some other authors might have questions - I saw Gavin, Kelsey and many other mods there. So, if you'd like to provide alternate downloads for any other mods, I'd recommend asking the authors, first, as well, so no further misunderstandings arise.

[Ascension64]

Hear here.

[cmorgan]

So that folks understand, most modders want to be able to update and maintain content - unauthorized mirrors mean more chances of problems, and more chances of a moder not being able to support their own work. (Plus, mirroring someone else's stuff without their permission is not considered polite, either, no matter how great the thought and how much goodwill there is!!!).

The best way to deal with this stuff is create and maintain a list of links to the mod's authorized downloads.

If you feel strongly about keeping a "static" version, just ask the modder to leave legacy versions up - most folks would like you playing their mods (that is what it is all about, after all) and will work with you to make sure you get what you want

If a modder/mod is out of business, so to speak, check around here - I know that Major Tom Sawyer and Miloch have a few threads about what is ok to do in that case, where people wrote in what they think is friendly behavior.

[Leonardo Watson]

Most players had complained up to now about the fact that it still lasts longer to search the mods in the internet, than to install the megamod itself. Indeed, the most important mods are on the known servers, however, many are hidden in the depths of the internet and can be found only by chance and, therefore, were unknown up to now to most of the players. Also we all have already experienced, that one of the servers was not accessible for longer time.

Therefore, folks have decided to solve this problem and have provided first link lists and then have bundled up the packages. I am sure, nobody wanted to hurt anybody, or has had the idea that it could annoy anybody to do so, but to do the best for all players. Maybe they were inexperienced and clumsy, thus be lenient please.

But folks have also done nothing wrong, but exactly that for what mods are planned - to offer them for free. Almost to all authors it seems to make no difference what happens with their mods. Only with a handful mods it has recently come to fashion to add terms of use. "This mod was created to be freely enjoyed by all Baldur's Gate gamers. This mod, however, may not be sold, published, compiled or redistributed in any form without the consent of its author." The fact that the mod may not be offered in changed version or even sold, is self-evident. The wish that it is not allowed to offer it, however, is doubtful, because this is not commercial software, but just freeware. However, a restriction is contradictory to the thought of freeware.

I find the excitement about "unauthorized mirror" for overdone. Are not all the mods in some measure "unauthorized"? They are "not developed, supported, or endorsed by BioWare or Interplay/Black Isle. All images and contents of this mod are copyright BioWare, Interplay/Black Isle or Wizards of the Coast." Has anyone of you modders asked Bioware about "unauthorized mirrors" or "unauthorized miods"?

Searching the mods in the internet and to download them has lasted several days before, as you all know. Now you can lean back comfortably and after only two hours all mods are in the actual version on your computer.

I find this service for the player very useful and, therefore, have written a batch program which unpacks all mods automatically and puts them into an backup folder. Besides, additional files like sound files and language files are copied as well as all known fixes into the correct directories. The whole one lasts only 20 minutes! I find, this is an immense progress which is of benefit for every player. Do you really want to withdraw this comfortable possibility from the players, so that anyone has to waste his/her time with gathering all the mods needlessly laboriously again like in the past?

Of course must be guaranteed that there always the most actual versions are held ready. For it a solution can be found, however, certainly. Nevertheless, a central place for all mods in this or a similar form is a gigantic relief for all players.

I find, you moddes and folks who provide the "unauthorized mirror" should think rather about how to improve the service and how to make sure that it is always up to date. I don't want raise here any discussion, but say only, find the best way for all sides: modders, the players and folks with that "unauthorized mirror".

Do you really want instead of this to build up unnecessary new hurdles to all players that want to play your mods?

[Bloodtitan]

got to agree with that. we're talking about mods for the community to improve a great game and add fun to it. this childish bureaucracy and political correctness behavior is absolutely missplaced. you all should be happy your work is spread and made known.

if you wanted to host your mod privately you first made the misstake to announce it on an open forum and upload it.

[the bigg]

Most modders have pleasure on imposing all sorts of stupid restrictions on their works, restrictions they do not apply to the original game. This is a sad fact of life, like taxes, DRM and Windows.

[Kulyok]

Do you put up Baldur's Gate II for download or for sale? No, unless you want trouble. Same goes for mods.

Has anyone of you modders asked Bioware about "unauthorized mirrors" or "unauthorized miods"?

Yes, we have, and so far, things have been going smoothly. I cannot say the same about you.

For the sake of argument: you can download my mods on Pocket Plane anytime, anywhere. (Or, if you're from Poland, ask yarpen about these bonus DVD materials from the official publisher - from what I know, Xan might become, or has become a part of them ). Don't tell me it's hard to find - one Google click does it.

Nevertheless, a central place for all mods in this or a similar form is a gigantic relief for all players.

http://modlist.pocketplane.net

Again, you're welcome to add new links and report broken links anytime, anywhere - you can edit your own submissions, as well.

In short, I hear you, but I don't think we are going to reach an agreement on this. Just do not do it again, please.

[berelinde]

First of all, I want to say that I do appreciate the effort Big World people have put into making these massive installations possible. I also appreciate modders' need to keep their versions up to date.

If I may offer a compromise: offer a links page to the download location for the individual mods, rather than mirroring them.

[ronin]

My stuff is old and outdated but Leonardo has permission to mirror them. Not allowing it is pretty petty/childish IMHO. Its a game and we are here for the players and I dont think anyone has a legal copyright on anything except BioWare for the game itself. If what I said is too harsh, well I'm not sorry.

[berelinde]

I don't have a problem with the Big World Project mirroring mine, either. I'll just have to remember to shoot a message here when I update versions.

[the bigg]

I was going to write a lengthy account of "DHDC versus IESDP" (thread 1, thread 2), but then decided that it won't stop Kulyok (or whomever for her) to demand for her deletion rights that she denies to the SHS moderating team.

Edited by the bigg, 02 December 2007 - 12:25 PM.

[Bloodtitan]

haha nice one, the_bigg. don't we love our hypocrites .

[SConrad]

My opinion is that this is a very bad idea. Mod authors have right to allow or deny third-party mirroring of their mods, even legally. But even legalities aside, it's rude and thankless to not even ask permission before doing something like this. Mod authors have not even been notified.

I would like to have all of my copyrighted material removed immediately from these distributions. I suggest the same is done to everything there is no express permission to mirror.

I don't technically need to specify a reason, but I will for the sake of the argument. As previous posters have mentioned, I don't want to run the risk of outdated versions of my mod lying around in mass-mod distributions. Even if you're still around and active, I'm not going to send individual PMs to a list of people I don't know as soon as I update a mod - and what happens when he or she leaves the community, even for a period of time? I also don't particularly like the way my material has been used without my permission. If I had been asked first, we could have talked about it - but now, it's a big "NO." To echo what I said in one of bigg's links; "I'm being uncompromising to demonstrate that this is not acceptable, on principle."

To address a few of Leonardo Watson's points:

But folks have also done nothing wrong, but exactly that for what mods are planned - to offer them for free. Almost to all authors it seems to make no difference what happens with their mods. Only with a handful mods it has recently come to fashion to add terms of use. "This mod was created to be freely enjoyed by all Baldur's Gate gamers. This mod, however, may not be sold, published, compiled or redistributed in any form without the consent of its author." The fact that the mod may not be offered in changed version or even sold, is self-evident. The wish that it is not allowed to offer it, however, is doubtful, because this is not commercial software, but just freeware. However, a restriction is contradictory to the thought of freeware.

You make the false assumption that all mods are freeware. That's not necessarily always true.

And even if it was freeware, it's still not FRS, which means that you're still not allowed to redistribute the material.

I find the excitement about "unauthorized mirror" for overdone. Are not all the mods in some measure "unauthorized"? They are "not developed, supported, or endorsed by BioWare or Interplay/Black Isle. All images and contents of this mod are copyright BioWare, Interplay/Black Isle or Wizards of the Coast." Has anyone of you modders asked Bioware about "unauthorized mirrors" or "unauthorized miods"?

As a matter of fact, I have personally been in contact with Bioware's legal department about the legalities of modding in the past. I know other people have, too.

Do you really want instead of this to build up unnecessary new hurdles to all players that want to play your mods?

No, I don't want to make it more difficult for players. But I'd take that over unnecessary new hurdles to me as a modder.

[Kaeloree]

I didn't realise any of my mods were hosted. Obviously I didn't investigate this enough. Could you also remove any of my mods included in this distribution?

Besides the fact that hosting other peoples' work without permission is rude and wrong, to include alpha and beta releases in such a distribution is extremely risky. They are in alpha or beta status for a reason, and obviously the author isn't completely sure they will not cause bugs in-game.

[DavidWallace]

I don't actually mind either way. But I suspect it's a bad idea on practical grounds - especially when most of the problems you're discussing would be addressed better by a list of links than by a mirror.

[Miloch]

Gods forbid someone might actually want to market your mods to a wider audience .

But yeah, it would make more sense to manage the download/install process via links rather than massive archives, which are likely obsolete as soon as you post them, due to frequent updates in (some) mods. Also, when you report a bug to the mod maintainer and he fixes it, you want to get that release, not handle it via some sort of patching within your own archive.

I recommend you use the same approach as does the APT command in Debian Linux and derivatives. Basically, it will scan a series of hyperlinked repositories for updated packages (via a configurable sources.list file), present that list to you so you can select which you want to install, resolve any conflicts or dependencies (i.e., you can't install both mod A and B, or you need mod A to install B), then download the packages and install them. In fact, I sort of thought this was the goal of the Big World Project.

[the bigg]

I recommend you use the same approach as does the APT command in Debian Linux and derivatives. Basically, it will scan a series of hyperlinked repositories for updated packages (via a configurable sources.list file), present that list to you so you can select which you want to install, resolve any conflicts or dependencies (i.e., you can't install both mod A and B, or you need mod A to install B), then download the packages and install them. In fact, I sort of thought this was the goal of the Big World Project.

That was going to be WeiGUI/WeiDB. Of course, I never got around to actually doing it, but this may change soon: I'm going to write them as my graduation project - if it gets accepted as a valid project, that is.

[Kai Hohiro]

If I may offer a compromise: offer a links page to the download location for the individual mods, rather than mirroring them.

Kulyok only linked to the one post with the packages. If anyone had acctually bothered to look at the entire thread, in the very FIRST post all mods are linked to their original download locations.

In my opinion that fact alone renders this entire discussion pointless...

Edited by Kai Hohiro, 04 December 2007 - 06:02 AM.

[Choo Choo]

If I may offer a compromise: offer a links page to the download location for the individual mods, rather than mirroring them.

Kulyok only linked to the one post with the packages. If anyone had acctually bothered to look at the entire thread, in the very FIRST post all mods are linked to their original download locations.

In my opinion that fact alone renders this entire discussion pointless...

Except for the whole "I link *AND* include it in my megamod installer which will quickly get outdated!" part?

Now, I'm no (released) modder (..yet? *hopes*), but I wouldn't want any of my future mods included - unless, of course, the distributor asked for permission and made sure to look for updates and implement them as soon as any patches or new versions were released.

Edited by Choo Choo, 04 December 2007 - 08:45 AM.

[cmorgan]

I may believe in open access, and I certainly think that it is a great idea for LW to be tackling such a great project, but until the bigg or another programmer provides this kind of GUI, it is tough to provide both respect for a modder's choices and keep work updated. The simplest way would be to follow berelinde's advice, and create an updatable set of links from the official mirrors. We have tried that for Tutu modding over at G3, and it seems to have worked well, though on a much, much smaller scale. In fact, I think the idea originally came from Azazzello's mega-mod install lists (I think - I bet he and Miloch will remember, as I tend to forget my own name from day to day).

A secondary one would just be to ask - it costs nothing but a moment of typing, and is nice feedback for authors.

I may personally feel that it is OK for a new mirror to show up with BG1 NPC v14+, but I need to be able to take that request to the project team, as this is not a solo decision. So I can't authorize anything until I get a request and ask the folks on the team. Yep, self-imposed burocracy. But it is the kind of expectation of control some folks have wanted before putting out their ideas and spending thousands (literally) of hours of time on their work, presumably so that Miloch and I do not set up an unauthorized mirror of "TBG1NPCPv14A, with Added Half-Nymph/Half-Dryad Multi-Romance Track and Special Encounters™", which does all it says it does, and more... and still has their name on it

most of all, though, the authorized mirrors mean quick and responsive replacement of older versions with newer fixed up versions. This is more important than folks realize, I think, as having to keep up several copies of installs to help troubleshoot is a *huge* drain on time and resources that could be spent fixing stuff.

Edited by cmorgan, 04 December 2007 - 04:03 PM.