7 replies to this topic

[Ephyon]

EDIT BY QWINN: Split this off from the Known Issues thread, to avoid spoiling people posting bug reports.


It was very good, the majority of the dialogue mixed in pretty seamlessly and it worked very well...

BUT there are two things that, while not really bad, kinda irked me for a second. Not too bad, but while reading them, they immediately flashed the "this wasn't originally there" flag I get when I play through mod content that doesn't entirely mix with the game's writing style.

The first one was the two options to end the quest by insisting that Kesai tell you of Nenny's dreams. They both give the same result, which seems far too abrupt in the case of the gentler one (couldn't she just give a more final "no" and ask you to drop the matter and continue with the quest?), while the more violent one is... well, WAY too violent, probably among the most angry responses you can give in the game and over such an irrelevant matter. Even when TNO makes a threat, it usually seems like he does it in some calm, cold manner. One of the very few times he's shown truly angry is when Morte reveals he knew about the Fortress, for example. This is just one really useless bit of irrelevant gossip.

The second would be hard to fix... even though he admits knowing to be manipulated, the way Kesai tricks the Practical Incarnation with cheap flirting just strikes me as very wrong. It's just weird for the man supposed to be a stone-cold asshole to take a detour just to impress a woman when the guy is supposed to be rigid like a Modron... it would take tweaking the dialogue quite a bit to emphasize some more the fact that he?s being magically manipulated, preferably throwing in a reference to it a bit earlier in a ?you intend to dismiss her but are strangely compelled to speak? sort of way. In short, give more emphasis to the "this is a manipulated dream and I can't act or think freely" angle and less to the "whoa, titties!" one.

Edited by Qwinn, 14 January 2009 - 09:55 AM.

[Qwinn]

Thanks for your thoughts!

Hmmm. You're right on the first part, I should probably yank that whole piece out, considering that the whole mod really is kinda "good" in nature, you would've even be there by that point if you hadn't shown Mebbeth a kindness, and going to tell Kesai about it is indeed another kindness that you have no real inkling you might profit from, so an irrationally evil response at that point doesn't really fit. That's just me trying to write "evil" dialogue, which I probably shouldn't try without giving it a lot more attention, seeing as I can rarely bring myself to actually -be- evil in RPG's myself.

As for the second part... and the Practical Incarnation being "stone cold"... eh, I dunno. I mean, yes, the Practical Incarnation definitely -is- stone cold emotionally, no doubt about that, but I don't know that that necessarily coincides with being indifferent toward potentially scoring some hot sex. That's not "emotional", that's just "male", heh. What makes him "stone cold" is that after he'd had her, he would probably betray her in a heartbeat if he'd get some advantage out of it, but I don't think that means he wouldn't bed her for the fun of it (especially since you get the impression he's quite sick of Deionarra at that point). More importantly, it's a dream, one where your own personality is at least somewhat infused into it (you both do and don't remember her when you meet her in the dream, remember). I don't think it's necessary that he be 100% in-character to what he would have been like while awake, 90% suffices. And I do also think it's clear at that point that she's -influencing- him directly, the whole flirting thing is just basically a hook to hang the magical influence on, know what I mean? And as for "preferably throwing in a reference to it a bit earlier in a ?you intend to dismiss her but are strangely compelled to speak? sort of way.", that's what the "you know you're being manipulated" bit was meant to address. I'll see if there's some minor change I can make to reflect what you're saying, but at least for now, I'm inclined to leave that part mostly the way it is.

One thing I do mean to do, now that I know -how- to do it, is to make the dream sequence more dream-like by making the creatures in it transparent. That might make it more atmospheric -as- a dream and thus soften any potential "Would the PI really have acted that way?" issues... I don't think most of us act precisely the same way in dreams as we act when awake, after all.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 January 2009 - 09:56 AM.

[Qwinn]

Hmm, some further thoughts on the second issue:

When I first read your review, what struck me initially as "I can't do that" about adding a "you feel strangely compelled to speak" line is, if she has -that- much direct ability to compel you to speak, then she can just compel you directly to tell her all sorts of things. That's not how I picture what's going on. She can't just make you her puppet. She -needs- the flirting thing as a hook on which to hang her influence. If you can think of another, different kind of hook, please do suggest it, though I thought the current way went well with the fact that if you flirt with her enough in "the real world", she will eventually respond).

Incidentally, the counter that counts how often you've flirted with Kesai is actually in the vanilla game... I didn't add it, I just made further use of it.

In theory, if there were a different kind of hook, I could make her do the flirting thing if you've flirted with her in real life, and she'd use a different hook to get you to go "down there" if you didn't flirt with her. (This would actually make it indirectly charisma based as well, since you can only do some of the flirts with a reasonably high charisma). Hmm... that's not a bad idea, if I can think of another way for her to con you down there, I may just do that. Damnit, you're gonna make me have to get all the translators out again! :mad: Heh.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 January 2009 - 09:56 AM.

[Qwinn]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that Kesai will take a different tack depending on whether or not you've flirted with her up to that point. It makes sense... if she knew that TNO was attracted to her, that would be an obvious hook for her to hang her influence on. Otherwise, she'd probably pick something else. Now I just gotta write up a good alternate hook.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 14 January 2009 - 10:00 AM.

[Markus Ramikin]

The first one was the two options to end the quest by insisting that Kesai tell you of Nenny's dreams. They both give the same result, which seems far too abrupt in the case of the gentler one (couldn't she just give a more final "no" and ask you to drop the matter and continue with the quest?), while the more violent one is... well, WAY too violent, probably among the most angry responses you can give in the game and over such an irrelevant matter. Even when TNO makes a threat, it usually seems like he does it in some calm, cold manner. One of the very few times he's shown truly angry is when Morte reveals he knew about the Fortress, for example. This is just one really useless bit of irrelevant gossip.

I apologize for what might look like a necro move, but I feel this is worth bringing back to attention. I agree with the quoted comment. The way the quest started it's just out of character to suddenly go psychopathic on poor Kesai. The "omg I must know" response (loose paraphrase of course) echoes Morte's, and works. But the "tell me or I'll carve out your head" one had me going "where the HELL did that come from?".

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 19 October 2009 - 09:22 PM.

[Markus Ramikin]

OK, this has got to be a bug. At the end of the quest, Kesai says she's leaving the brothel. But if I go back to the Brothel, she's right back where she started, with the standard dialogues.

(Also, in the Foundry, why does she make her exit straight back into the Dreambuilder?)

[Qwinn]

OK, this has got to be a bug. At the end of the quest, Kesai says she's leaving the brothel. But if I go back to the Brothel, she's right back where she started, with the standard dialogues.

Yah, I'd already discovered this on my own, it's fixed for v4.0.

(Also, in the Foundry, why does she make her exit straight back into the Dreambuilder?)

I thought I'd made this clear in dialogue, oh well... she intends to further investigate her powers in regards to dreams, and investigating the construction of the Dreambuilder is certainly a good way to start. Her stringheads, if nothing else, indicate that she's completely fascinated by it.

And, yes, I removed the more directly confrontational of the "evil" options, I agree it sucked. One of them is still there, but it's more in line with the "stone cold" TNO persona rather than overtly emotional. I would love to tinker with it some more, such as adding the alternate hook thing I described above, but that's going to have to wait till the next release, I'll never make this release in the time I want to if I get derailed on that.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 23 December 2009 - 10:37 PM.

[Markus Ramikin]

(Also, in the Foundry, why does she make her exit straight back into the Dreambuilder?)

I thought I'd made this clear in dialogue, oh well... she intends to further investigate her powers in regards to dreams, and investigating the construction of the Dreambuilder is certainly a good way to start.

Ah, I obviously missed that.