85 replies to this topic

[maidros]

dorotea, on Aug 7 2003, 07:38 PM, said:

Hmm, I think I liked Quitch's approach to Imoen's mod well enough to try starting my own thread on the topic I am planning to adress in the new Redemption mod. Regardless of what I think - I solicit your opinion. Was Irenicus actively 'channeling' your dreams or was it all in your imagination only? Also, if you think he did not know about the dreams - how come they were aimed to lure you into Spellhold and 'awaken' your essense?

My own idea is that Irenicus was not involved in those dreams. It was the PC's mind giving the Bhaal taint the face of Irenicus. It may also be the after effect of the imprisonment of Irenicus, with the Bhaal taint coercing the PC to take the evil path utilising the 'information' provided by Irenicus to the PC. But there is one objection to the dreams being initiated by the Bhaal essence. Whenever you made a choice in BG, there were some ramifications (you got a power, either 'good' or 'evil'. But there is no such thing in BG2. So it can be argued both ways. It is just interpretation, I suppose

[Jinnai]

I think the dreams were part of Bhaal taint in you...a way of testing each indivisual to the extremes to get the best because, to quote from Highlander, "In the end, there can be only one..." Ie there can be only one of his descendants to take his place and he puts them up against each other as a way to temper and weene out them.

[Sphira]

I think it?s repressed memories from what happened during your time with Irenicus and your taint talking. I would agree with the Bhaal telling you this if they didn?t have Bhaal manifest with the dream with Imoen at spell hold. I go with the theory that Irenicus wanted you to accept the taint to make his job of removing your soul a bit easier for him. You have less will power to resist.

[Jinnai]

Sphira, on Aug 8 2003, 05:16 AM, said:

I think it?s repressed memories from what happened during your time with Irenicus and your taint talking. I would agree with the Bhaal telling you this if they didn?t have Bhaal manifest with the dream with Imoen at spell hold.  I go with the theory that Irenicus wanted you to accept the taint to make his job of removing your soul a bit easier for him. You have less will power to resist.

The amount of energy expended to lower your will to resist by controlling your subconscious through dreams vs. a more powerful spell seems hardly worth it.

[dorotea]

Hmm, I think Sphira meant that he did not actually control the dreams - the dreams were your own creation, but they were more vivid because your resistanse to Bhaal's taint was lowered.

Logical enough? I am still interested if you guys think Irenicus could have been 'aware' of the dreams, even if he did not directly 'induce' them.

/OOPS - I seem to edit Jinnai's post at first by mistake instead of simply replying - sorry/

[Sphira]

Yeah. What Dorotea said. ^^; My head's a bit fuzzy tonight.

[Theodur]

Ack, I have always assumed that it was Bhaal taking the shape of Irenicus and tauting and teasing the PC, just as Bhaal takes the shape of Imoen in the after-Spellhold dream. I'll have to look for a points supporting my theory when I get back home and can have a look in the dialogues. But the speech patterns that were mentioned, certainly seem quite Bhaal-like. The motivation point is the vague one - why did Bhaal wanted to force the confrontation between the PC and Irenicus? Because he knew that whoever will emerge from this meeting will retain his essence and will have gained a lot of strength? Maybe. Perhaps I can dig up some more evidence later...

I don't think that the argument that 'it can't be Bhaal, as he is dead' is not that viable - I mean, he was pretty much dead during the course of BG1 as well, was he not?

[Jinnai]

Theodur, on Aug 8 2003, 07:32 AM, said:

I don't think that the argument that 'it can't be Bhaal, as he is dead' is not that viable - I mean, he was pretty much dead during the course of BG1 as well, was he not?

True espically since Bane was dead and was revived after BG2. Its not quite the same, but it is very similar.

[Tancred]

I'm going for symbolism here all across the board. Imoen represents your own soul, conscience, the part of you that is exclusively yours. Bhaal represents the taint of Bhaal within you, ever struggling to overcome its' opposite. These are yin and yang, the two parts of you that remain in perfect opposition. You've already fought the battle against the bhaal taint with the help of your own willpower in the first game. This is borne out by the vision sequence in chapter 4, when you battle the bhaal taint with the aid of your soul, which is then isolated and pulled from you.

Distorting this balance is the new figure of Irenicus. At this point in the game, the motives and plans of Irenicus remain more or less unknown. All you know is that he had some idea to unlock your power... running with that theme, I would say that the figure of Irenicus in your dreams represents a new thing awakened in you - the possibility of power, the uncertainty of your ability to fight the Bhaal taint. Anxiety and fear, exaggerated by the tortures you have suffered and the death/kidnap of comrades.

In every dream we see, it is the figure of Irenicus that presents you with arguments for taking up the power of Bhaal - you can either accept it, in which case you see yourself performing acts of power as by a little the Bhaal taint creeps into a dominant position, or you reject it, in which case Irenicus - uncertainty, fear - bombards Imoen - your soul - with destructive spells; symbolic of the erosion of your willpower by the unanswered questions presented to you.

If Irenicus says: "She clings to her old life as though it actually matters." could it not be that he refers to your soul holding on to you, fighting for you? And that it is pointless, for Bhaal will win in the end, no matter how many personal battles you fight and win?

Taken in this (fairly extreme) context, the dreams become a jouney into your tormented inner self rather than to Imoen and Irenicus. As pointed out, once your soul is gone the dreams cease - there is no longer any struggle, only the slow trickle of the taint as it fills the void left by your soul. Only one more dream comes to you after that - and though it is Imoen speaking to you, it becomes clear from her tone and words that it is just the shell of your soul, speaking the words of the taint.

A fairly wacky theory, but then I do tend towards the overly complex explanation anyway.

[Andyr]

Wow, that's deep Tancred. B)

Seems this thread's got a bit large overnight: As I said I think the dreams are induced by Bhaal, for reasons me and a lot of the others have said.

Going back to Dorotea, I don't think Irenicus is really that aware of your dreams. He didn't know about the one you have in Spellhold (after you get the I have defeated whatever you conjured line), and I don't think he mentions the other ones.

[dorotea]

Quote

Taken in this (fairly extreme) context, the dreams become a jouney into your tormented inner self rather than to Imoen and Irenicus. As pointed out, once your soul is gone the dreams cease - there is no longer any struggle, only the slow trickle of the taint as it fills the void left by your soul. Only one more dream comes to you after that - and though it is Imoen speaking to you, it becomes clear from her tone and words that it is just the shell of your soul, speaking the words of the taint.

Oh, I loved this whole concept very much. And it almost rings true to me except for the 2 little 'buts'

1. Imoen mentions that 'you will come too late' - there can be several explanations, but most logical one is the simplest : you worry about her and thus you dream of her, and not symbolically imagine her as your soul

2. Irenicus must have got the taint as well as the soul - because not only he can turn into the Slayer, he has some degree of control over your Hellish plane while he is holding to your soul - thus soul contains essence which is also the taint. I cannot separate the essence onto 'bad' and 'good' part, it is just raw power.

Arguments pro and contra? Anybody interested?

[Tancred]

dorotea, on Aug 8 2003, 04:10 PM, said:

1. Imoen mentions that 'you will come too late' - there can be several explanations, but most logical one is the simplest : you worry about her and thus you dream of her, and not symbolically imagine her as your soul

2. Irenicus must have got the taint as well as the soul - because not only he can turn into the Slayer, he has some degree of control over your Hellish plane while he is holding to your soul - thus soul contains essence which is also the taint. I cannot separate the essence onto 'bad' and 'good' part, it is just raw power.

Arguments pro and contra? Anybody interested?

1) Yes, that's a good one alright. Tricky.

"Do you remember... me? I... I can almost see... I want to, but... too late. You will come too late."

The only way I can interpret this and still maintain any credibility in what I say is:

"Do you remember who you are? Past events have shaken you to the core, do you still remember your own spirit? Something has come between us now... I am distant, but not yet gone... I almost have the power to see you, to force my way back to you but - too late! You will come (to full realisation? Back to me? Into your power?) too late!"

And with the appearance of the growing fears and disturbances within you(Irenicus), your soul becomes a statue - as far away from you as your guiding mentors, who laid the groundwork for your personality, or Sarevok, your shadow, who by opposing you allowed you to affirm who you were. You are losing touch with your soul, possibly as a result of something the real Irenicus did... but your psyche is clearly not giving up without a fight, as the Irenicus-figure asserts 'She clings to her old life.' I need a dictionary of Freudianism or something for this.

2) I'm not sure the essence and the taint are the same thing. Every reference to the taint of Bhaal seems to indicate that it is something deep within you, almost like a cancer, or lycanthropy. References are made to your 'tainted blood'... how you are 'born of that which takes life'... it's all very physical metaphors when referring to the taint. No-one ever says your *essence* or your *soul* is 'tainted'... divine in their' own way, yes, but not tainted.

[dorotea]

Quote

The separation of CHARNAME's soul from the Bhaal taint is interesting though. I wonder if Irenicus got any of that until the final battle at the tree. If he did, what do you think he dreamed about?

Yes, yes ! Please can someone tell me?

I *need* to know what you think - was Jon having dreams as well? And do you think he had to pass the tests of Greed, Fear, Selfishness and Pride? (gee he sure failed the last one)

[Tancred]

dorotea, on Aug 8 2003, 05:04 PM, said:

And do you think he had to pass the tests of Greed, Fear, Selfishness and Pride? (gee he sure failed the last one)

I SWEAR he says something along the lines of "I have faced my own demons on this plane, CHARNAME, and they hold no terror for me..." so I'd say yes. He's just died, so he can't really be in possession of your soul any more... I would tend towards the view that on this plane, both of you are on equal terms, both potential masters. It's an even playing-field.

As for the dreams... I don't know. We know Imoen doesn't dream until ToB, she tells us so... but it is an intriguing thought, one that's too good to ignore. I can almost imagine Irenicus walking about a morbid Suldanesselar floating in the void, confronted with the faces and statues of people he remembers. His old teachers, Rielev, Ellesime, Elthan... with Bodhi, no doubt, as his guide.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Jon's hell dialouge:

PC. "I have defeated you once already, Irenicus. You have no chance."

Irenicus. "I have as much chance as you, <CHARNAME>. I have fought my own demons in this hell, and I have learned that it is not to be feared!
As horrific as this place is, it merely mirrors the soul we now share. Shrink from it if you will, but I have grown to appreciate what it can offer!
Now defend yourself! One of us is not truly dead, and may be restored if the other is left here to rot! I will be free with what I have taken!"

Does the "I have grown to appreciate what it can offer line" imply that he has had dreams?

[dorotea]

Quote

Does the "I have grown to appreciate what it can offer line" imply that he has had dreams?

Good point - a very good point! You guys gave me quite a few things to think about - I may post some sketches of the dialogs between PC and Jon and they trod through ToB next week ...

So, please continue to throw this fantastic ideas.

[C'est Nedra]

Hmmm, I was always under the impression that Irenicus knew what he was doing. I disliked how Irenicus was made into this "super power", considering that he was just a mage, not superman, nor a god....yet.

I imagined that Irenicus gained control of Spellhold and that is when the dreams began, he was working out of his evil little sanitarium like every decent mad scientist and putting all sorts of disturbing thoughts into CHARs head. Sort of like Freddy, only much cuter

The idea that they were caused by the taint or brought on by the character's own conscience seems a bit bogus to me, much of it had nothing to do with the exact taint but rather the power to be harnessed from it...Irenicus had to keep his memory fresh in the char's mind anyways, to guarantee his arrival at Spellhold eventually.


Also, I would think that Irenicus would have gleaned knowledge of the char's past from his various experiments, and knew what his weaknesses were [ we are dealing with a super-villian here], hence using the environment of Candlekeep and his past enemies.

[The Amazing Maurice]

But the Pc was having similar dreams in BG1, and Imoen has them in TOB after Irenicus is (officialy) dead