11 replies to this topic

[Qwinn]

Just discovered something that I think will help with game balance, and may be another reason (among the many discovered so far) for why the game is too easy.

Looking through the monster files, I noticed that the vast majority of creatures have -no- points in any weapon proficiency, sometimes even monsters using their natural weaponry (claws, etc.). Now, if TNO equips a weapon in which he has no proficiency points, he gets some serious penalties. I'm testing (as well as asking scient to take a look) to see if they also get the penalty. If they do, then yeah, that makes a big difference in their combat potential.

Far as I'm concerned, almost every creature, even level 1 creatures, should have at least 1 proficiency point in their chosen weapon. If having 0 proficiency points doesn't give a penalty to monsters, then that'll make my job a lot easier as I can just ignore the hundreds of level 1 creatures. But I have a feeling that, yes, they're getting the penalty. Which would explain a lot.

Some monsters that you'd REALLY think should have -some- proficiency points in their chosen weapon, but don't have any, are (highlight to read):

1. Acaste (Ghoul Queen in Dead Nations)
2. Agril-Shanak the really nasty uberdemon in the pentagram in Curst
3. Just about all Hive Thugs
4. The Two Abishai in the Smoldering Corpse Bar (whereas most other black abishai have 3 points in Edged)
5. Ghrist the Gehreleth in UnderCurst
6. All Nupperibos and Lemures (okay, they're weak devils, but you'd think they'd at least know how to use their fists)
7. Even freaking Qui-Sai, the fighter trainer in the Clerk's Ward


Obviously, that little bit of quality control got cut in the rush to get the game out the door. I'll be doing a comprehensive sweep to give creatures some proficiency with their weapons. A lot of creatures -do- have some proficiencies, and they appear reasonable, so there does exist a reasonable guide for how many points a given level creature should have.

This will go in the Fixpack.

Just as a bit of trivia: Montague, Julie's boyfriend that hangs in the Festhall, has 5 in Edged. Ever try to fight him? He's actually fairly tough. Now we know why, heh.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 May 2009 - 03:24 PM.

[Qwinn]

Incidentally, I tested to see if maybe weapon proficiencies -don't matter- and don't affect a creature's combat capability, which is why they went undone.

Nuh uh. I tested letting the zombie in the first room in the mortuary (the one with the key) attack me. He'd hit maybe 25% of the time for either 1 or 2 points of damage. I gave him 5 proficiencies in fists. He started thwacking me a lot more often for 6-7 points of damage every time. It makes a BIG difference.

Qwinn

[gothemasticator]

Oooh! This would help a lot. Add this to fixed STR progression and enemies running and the TO fixes... Finally a game that has a lot of fighting built in will actually make fighting challenging (and therefore fun!).

gothemasticator

[Qwinn]

Since this involves me needing to go through pretty much every creature file in the game, I think I'm going to do some needed tweaking. There's lots of cases where creatures are obviously just copy-paste jobs (all stats 9, 10 hit points) that were intended to have different stats. I'm not going to go nuts with this, but in some cases what's in the game is just silly.

Take, as an example, ANARCHY3.CRE. This is one of the Anarchists in the Vault. Your first line of conversation with him is:

You see a hulking man, dull-faced and slack-jawed. His muscles, however, are truly a sight to behold.

And you can also hear references to his "oak-like arms".

What are his actual stats?

9 in everything - including strength
10 hit points
Level 1 thief

If nothing else, this guy should get at -least- 18/76 strength, just based on the description. And from the fact that he can barely grunt in conversation, he should have an INT of around 6 (not that that'll have any in-game effect, but what the hell). They clearly meant this guy to have high strength and low intelligence, and just as clearly were never able to get around to it. So, I'm putting my "finish the game" hat on (like I did with lock fixes) and giving this guy a decent strength. I'll be doing this with a light touch, only when there's real reason to believe the creature was supposed to be tough and when the stats they -do- have are obviously just a cut-and-paste template that never got updated. If this really affects their difficulty, I'll increase the xp reward for killing them too, though that probably won't be very significant.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 May 2009 - 04:15 PM.

[Qwinn]

Ok, scient checked it out, and looks like NPC's aren't getting penalties if their proficiency is 0. The penalties only apply to PC's (and TNO is the only one where it's even possible.) So for NPC's, 0 is equivalent to a 1. That's good. I don't have to worry about all the really low level NPC's that wouldn't have more than 1 anyway.

Still -lots- of NPC's that clearly should have more than 1, though, like the black abishai in the SCB, or the fighter trainers, etc. Won't be as significant a fix as I initially expected, but should still help give some creatures that really seemed underpowered a deserved boost.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 08 May 2009 - 05:39 PM.

[Qwinn]

Okay, here's another example of a creature with insane stats:

Matter-Of-Course. You know that huge hulking bodyguard that follows Diligence around in the Clerk's Ward? He's described as being a "giant of a man" wearing "equally immense armor".

Effective AC 10. (Yes, he's walking around in a freaking BattleMech, and his AC is 10)
4 hit points.
9 in all stats.

Diligence could kick her own bodyguard's ass in a fight. (Well, sometimes - her stats are identical, heh)

I think it's pretty obvious that this guy should be given AT LEAST the stats of any typical Harmonium Guard, if not even significantly better.

I'm only talking about this cause I'm worried that someone's gonna think "This is more like a tweak, not a fix". Even though I do think the game's too easy, the stuff I'd be putting in the fixpack isn't "I want to make the game harder", it's "This is bloody retarded". Hopefully no one objects or would hesitate to install the mod over fixes like this. Is there anyone out there who -would- object to me fixing stupid stuff like this? Yes, it requires a judgment call on my part as to what's appropriate, but, well, I really don't think I could possibly do worse than what's in the game.

Qwinn

[scient]

Ya that is retarded. I imagine like you said most CRE were copy/paste then since at the end they were rushed there wasn't time to go through and refine stats. I always thought some of NPC's went down so fast, this is prob why.

Edited by scient, 08 May 2009 - 06:28 PM.

[gothemasticator]

Qwinn,

I agree that the kind of stat fixes you are talking about should count as a "fix" and not as a tweak.

You might just want to put special emphasis on the scope of the fixes to combat in the readme. I think most people would welcome the fixes once they are made aware of the unfinished state of many combat aspects.

gothemasticator

[HomiSite]

In the examples you posted, it is clearly more a fix than a tweak. If the description says that person X _really_ looks mean and strong, he should have these stats. And because much of these discrepancies seem to come from copy & paste, it's more a bug.

PS: Just also want to say Thank You for your (and scient's) incredible work and ongoing motivation over months!

Edited by HomiSite, 09 May 2009 - 07:07 AM.

[Qwinn]

I was wrong about Matter of Course, the CRE file I was looking at ("MATTER.CRE") is unused. His actual file is "HBDYGRD.CRE". That one's considerably better. He still has all stats as 9, sigh, and no weapon proficiencies (which is equivalent to 1 point), but at least he's level 8, he has 80 hit points and an effective AC of 0. Somewhat less ludicrous.

Course, he's also listed as, um, a Lawful Good black abishai. Yes, rly. He even has two Abishai Battle Cries and an Abishai Death Sound, though I don't know if they actually play in game. His race and species are both listed as black abishai. He is also definitely a member of the Harmonium.

So now I have to decide, heh. I could fix that to make him human or whatnot, but I suppose it's possible that he's a rogue lawful good black abishai hiding in a big suit of armor. If that's the case, though, then I need to make -other- changes, like giving him his 3 proficiency points and immunity to non-magical weapons, and stats similar to other black abishai (like 16 str and 16 con).

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 11 May 2009 - 02:26 PM.

[scient]

I was wrong about Matter of Course, the CRE file I was looking at ("MATTER.CRE") is unused. His actual file is "HBDYGRD.CRE". That one's considerably better. He still has all stats as 9, sigh, and no weapon proficiencies (which is equivalent to 1 point), but at least he's level 8, he has 80 hit points and an effective AC of 0. Somewhat less ludicrous.

Course, he's also listed as, um, a Lawful Good black abishai. Yes, rly. He even has two Abishai Battle Cries and an Abishai Death Sound, though I don't know if they actually play in game. His race and species are both listed as black abishai. He is also definitely a member of the Harmonium.

So now I have to decide, heh. I could fix that to make him human or whatnot, but I suppose it's possible that he's a rogue lawful good black abishai hiding in a big suit of armor. If that's the case, though, then I need to make -other- changes, like giving him his 3 proficiency points and immunity to non-magical weapons, and stats similar to other black abishai (like 16 str and 16 con).

Maybe one of those things to put to Chris Avallone if you get a chance to sit down with him. If it was just one thing then it would most likely be a typo or mistake. However other than being intended, the only other possible mistake I can think of is if CRE was copy and paste that never got changed.

Edited by scient, 11 May 2009 - 02:38 PM.