52 replies to this topic

[berelinde]

+1000 Karma points for Tempest. That was beautifully stated.

Not sure I can agree with Azzy, though. When a guy compares you to the one person in his entire miserable childhood with whom he could be happy and not feel like worthless scum, it's always a heart-felt compliment. OK, it might come out wrong, which is also kind of sweet, but he's showing a lot of vulnerable underbelly with that.

About the only way I can think of that he does act in a way that will make many women roll their eyes and think of stereotypes is that he'll let a woman make his decisions for him. Now, when *our* men do this, it's because they either suspect that we're going to get our way one way or the other so they might as well let us choose in the first place or because they don't want to bother thinking it through. But when Anomen does it, well, he really doesn't have any idea what he should do.

Now, Azzy, if you wanted to talk about the female NPCs' roles in the romances, it would probably be better to start another thread, or it will go off topic. (limbers up the fingers for a long post or two)

[Cal Jones]

I'm uterus-impaired, but curiously I find the perspective that comes most easily to me in much of my writing is that of an androgynous woman. From this perspective, there are a few elements of Anomen's dialogues I would find quite patronizing - his contually comparing you to his sister comes to mind, and the fact that throughout the romance you're essentially asked to play the role of "the woman behind the man." I remember a few holding/cuddling related comments that struck me as curiously one-sided. I don't know how a more typical femalish perspective would interpret that sort of thing, though.

Yes, this is where I'm coming from. (To Tempest: As far as the sister thing being patronising, Moira is a nice, stay at home girl, whereas the PC, as I play her, is a burly warrior who has been hacking a bloody path from Candlekeep whilst sleeping in hedges and getting into trouble with the law. If Anomen is reminded of her, it's his own delusion).

The other thing is that I *really* hate his voice. That's nothing against Rob Paulsen because I really like Kivan, and of course, I love Morte in PS:T - but I just want to fit Anomen with a ballgag.

(For the record, I don't care for the three female romances either, though of all of them, Jaheira is the most tolerable and she does mellow after a while. It's just that I was scarred by her "omnipotent authority figure" comments in BG1... Aerie I just want to beat to death with her own severed wings).

[Gomb]

Something similar happened to me with Haer'Dalis, though I wouldn't call it 'respect'. Back in the old days, I just couldn' stand the way he was talking, with all that stuff about sparrows and stages and plays. But in my currently playthrough, he's still with my part in TOB, and he annoyes me a lot less, and I even like some of his lines. He doesn't have all that much character depth, though, like how Elysia described Anomen.

But usually I don't judge a character by his or her 'depth', especially not in games. If I find a character entertaining for some reason, or if I find his/her characteristics funny or cool or whatever, that's enough for me. And that could be said for the opposite: a character can be as deep as Lake Baikal, if I just find him/her way too depressing/annoying/boring ect., that just won't me like him/her. For example, no matter how many times I take Nalia with me, I still kick her out eventually. I never really cared much about Anomen, either, but this topic actually made me consider taking him into the party for a longer time. But the character I like best for her depth is Viconia, though it only comes out in her romance.

Edited by Gomb, 10 June 2009 - 05:06 AM.

[Ebon]

I like Anomen and have never hated him. So what if he's arrogant and insecure; many other characters are. The thing is that he kinda succeeds being a knight in shining armor: he's got lots of strength, and his ability to cast healing spells (and not only) is invaluable in battle. His goofy attitude is expected of him, and what's better: he doesn't break things. Take Korgan, for exampe. He's disgusting. And Keldorn... he's boring. Too predictable, and it would be an interesting challenge not to benefit from his very useful dispelling abilities anyway.

I take Anomen almost always in my party, because he's a wellrounded healer-tank, and also funny.

Edwin and Korgan are especially arrogant or troubling. I'd avoid such guys in real life, they're no fun, they're chore.

[Gomb]

I think of Edwin mostly as a comic-relief character, and have no trouble with him, he's even among my favourites. Although I have to admit he can be boring sometimes, but I guess that could be said to most of the comic-relief characters. As for Korgan, I sometimes take him along, sometimes not, depeding on my character and the others in the party. His manner is kind of like a pirate's, and that can add to the feel of game. I also like his quarrels with Jaheira, and his realtionship with Mazzy is hilarious. He also has good lines of his own, and thus also among my favourites.
Besides, I never consider if I would associate with a character or no in real life, I like to create parties that are interesting and fun to observe. All goodie-goodie perfect characters or totally evil parties are just boring.

[Trick]

I'd like to hop in the bandwagon for "new Anomen appreciation".
I hated the guy and thought he was bad Cleric, bad Fighter. Even in good parties, I took Viconia instead of him.
Quite recently, I changed attitude. I think he's a good fit for good and even evil parties (he kills an unarmed girl and has many callous lines.)
But mainly for the good party. Maybe his DEX is low, but he has high STR and many HP, he can equip heavy armour, and be adequate on the front line, more so than Viconia. He has 2 attacks. Al this counts more than DEX. As a cleric, he has all the good spells, his handicap is only for low level spells.
As for his personality, I now take him for a funny, arrogant, guy. Even when he wrongly advises to attack Irenicus, I find him funny. The key is never to take him seriously, except for his quest.
Also, I never mind him taking bad blows or even dying all the time, he must earn the honour to be in my party.

[Zyraen]

I used to hate Anomen, now I have him fairly often especially when I play female PCs. Growing up over the years since I played BG2 as a boy, I can relate and understand better why he feels the way he feels. BTW about his sister comparison, I think without a doubt it reflects that he actually doesn't really have much experience with ladies, his main form of reference is his sister, and in a positive light. It kind of makes sense about how I related to my first few girlfriends, having an ideal in mind and then comparing notes, just that of course I don't really spell it out to them as directly as he did, and even then he meant it doubtless as compliments. AND btw, I score him as the single most useful GOOD Bioware character in the Entire Game (with Gloves of Dexterity, hehe)

Keldorn has had the opposite effect. First I met him, I never wanted a Paladin so I just killed him in the sewers, glad to pick a fight with him. When I took a good party, I thought he was great, and a good pally, nice person, a little stoic at times. But while writing BTL, I found myself disappointed with the Bioware impression of him, and I've never really felt they did him justice.

Jaheira and Viconia have all become more real to me since the first time I played BG2, especially Jaheira. She irritated the heck out of me, and I don't understand what's with all her crap about being a harper. As I grow older I realise how important it is for people to identify with something, and how they react when that is at risk. Jaheira reflects this very well I feel, to the extent of being more clingy and hence commanding as she loses her "link" to the Harpers. Makes me think of my mom honestly, she got more commanding and forceful as she felt insecure about her position in the family, and now that she's more secure and happier, she no longer is that way, much better now.

Viconia I have liked from the beginning, but the last bits of her romance, especially when she brushes you off even if you pick the right answer, pissed me off in the past. Now I feel its just about a person trying to assert herself in a bad situation, and also to try and protect her loved one, even if it means that she suffers the loss of his love, but protects him from feeling the pain if she were herself to be lost/killed (which she expected very much would happen at that point). It is actually wonderfully sweet and selfless, and done in a very appropriately harsh, drowish fashion. This aspect I feel, is also very much realistic - I have felt tempted to do so at times in real life, and I did want to bring out this aspect in the Valasse Mod Romance I was fantasising about at one point.

I think Aerie has a similar syndrome as Anomen. I would say of all, Aerie is the closest "mirror" to Anomen in almost every sense of the word, except no family crap and test to go after. Where Anomen brags, Aerie is openly insecure. Where Anomen has a wretched family, Aerie has no family ; where Anomen has a family nemesis, Aerie has guardian (in the form of Quayle). I liked her from my first playthrough, but she wearied me quickly when I took her in following playthroughs. Honestly, I love her soundset, but the same voice saying those banter lines sounds incredibly whiny through the speakers. Coming back to the game though, after BTL, I find her more easier to relate to. However, IMO Bioware's implementation of her is a little clumsy, especially the banters for most of the beginning. Past those though, I can see them put effort into making her grow, but it is sometimes drawn out when they spread a single topic across too many dialogues. Yes, very realistic, as I found out in my latest relationship where my gf would bring up the topic long, how still worried about something, long after I thought it was settled, but still irritating... Nonetheless I've found she has plenty relation to real life examples over time.

Mazzy is another character I disliked from the beginning, but I began to see more of her as I related to understanding loss of someone close, and holding on to something. I know/feel Bioware did not fully develop her, though, focusing on her family instead of her person, her beliefs, the prejudice she must have faced, and if she was looking for another love.

Yoshimo I thought was an irritating arse, especially the way he seemed to want to stand out then hide again. When he first betrayed me to Irenicus I barely read his lines, I was just seeing it as a form of gloating but being careful not to say the wrong thing lest I got out. In course of writing BTL though, I grew to love him reading how he felt, especially in betrayal to Irenicus', and RPing as him I realised that he couldn't possibly have feared the PC in that situation - he must have felt some genuine remorse. And he was likeable, I have to admit.

All in all, most of these characters that I felt were mishandled by Bioware, I have tried to give them the due respect, exposure, development and depth in writing their banters in BTL I guess that's one of the advantages of being a modder, lol.

[Cal Jones]

It's funny, I do wax and wane about characters and I think a lot of it has to do with which other NPCs you have in party. Anomen is less of an ass if you romance him, although he is still not my cup of tea, personally.

Aerie, on the other hand, I hated as a romance - all she seems to do is bleat about her wings and bitch at Jaheira (one of your oldest friends, if you see her that way, and someone who is recently bereaved) which I find intolerable. But in a recent game I had a female PC and no Jaheira, and had Haer'Dalis instead. Aerie was much more fun in that setup. It's her shame her relationship with H'D is not reflected in their epilogues.

Mazzy I can only tolerate if I don't have Valygar in party (I like Val and can't stand the way she treats him as her squire), but I don't mind her otherwise. Minsc I can no longer tolerate at all, although he used to be an absolute staple - just find his soundset horribly annoying, much as I do Anomen's.

I also used to hate Imoen, but now she's a must in both BG and BGII. I think my initial dislike was born from the fact she talks like an all American high school girl which seems out of place in the Forgotten Realms, but in the long run, her loyalty is touching.

As for Jaheira, she's another who is incredibly loyal, and I like her for that. But when she tells me to be quiet when Adalon is speaking, I want to punch her in the face.

[Guardian]

When I first played, I had Jaheria in my party. I wasn't too crazy about her romance at all. But I happen to like Aerie's....as well as Viconia's, especially if you can get her to change her alignment to True Neutral. I realize, I'm only one of a handful that enjoys Aerie and her romance...

Anomen.....I HATE! I used him when I first played and had him for a day or two in game and cleared out the De'Arnise keep. After that....I really couldn't stand him anymore and got rid of him. So....I did another play through with him and forced myself to keep him until the end of the game. I'm REALLY regretting this decision! I just want to feed him to a beholder or something! He's a pompous ass and I don't care for such people in my groups. To me....either use Viconia or Aerie as your cleric...or make your own. And in that same party, I didn't take Minsc.....and I'm really feeling it! Valygar and Anomen can't hold a candle to Minsc and Keldorn! So, I really can't do a successful game without them (I can...it's just that much harder IMO).

I felt the same way about Jan too....but then I used him. He's good for a fun play game; a game where you don't plan to go to ToB. Or, if you do, you better have a group to back him up. My problem is that there is no good "fifth slot" NPC for my group. I usually run a party of Me (Illusionist), Imoen (used as a thief), Keldorn (Paladin), Minsc (Warrior) and Aerie (Cleric/Mage, mostly cleric). The closest I can get is Mazzy...but even then, that's pushing it for me. I don't want Anomen (can't stand him) and Valygar has no place in this group (sneak attack is irrelevant in my party).

[Cal Jones]

Give Valygar Celestial Fury and Belm and he's an absolute machine. Duel wielding is the key for him. He's very powerful used this way.
Anomen is also incredibly useful - give him gauntlets of Dexterity and watch him go. Get him to turn undead and he blasts them into small chunks - so much more useful than Viconia's turning them green. I love it when he gets powerful and can make liches explode. Due to her multiclass, Aerie can't do this for a long time, so Anomen always gets the nod over Aerie if I'm not playing a cleric myself. Yes he's annoying but he's too useful to pass up in most of my games.

[Deathsangel]

Take it from one who's been (and pretty consistently *is*) guilty of doing much the same thing in real life-Anomen doesn't really *think* you're some soft damsel, he's simply trying to treat you with the respect, concern, and otherwise behavior that he feels you deserve-it's just his own ideas of how to express those things that are old-fashioned and come across as arrogant to a more modern-minded woman.

I am guilty to the same thing, though perhaps in a slightly different light. I am more playful, but when requested or when she may be in distress (played or not) I can not help but act the knight.

As to the topic.

Anomen for me at my first run, kind of made me look at the screen for a few seconds. I was surprised at his behaviour, but quiet quickly I thought of him as a fantasy high knight, or simply a man trying to indeed prove his worth to travel with Charname.
When I played the romance (haven't finished it yet - just too little time), however, I could understand the mascarade but still had some difficulty with it for the reasons said - he may act the knight and think the PC a damsel, but he could at more intimate moments drop this act. However, as he 'corrupted' (in that romance, in another I made a PC that would love that behaviour) it became very interresting to be honest.
I do not explicitly hate him, nor do I love him. If I may dare to say so, I think I understand that the idea behind him, but it does not appeal to me as much as some other.

I could state more about other characters, but I feel in a sense most is said and that for some things I have no right to speak, due to either my own experiences in life (like some also seem to have here) or the fact I never saw them (Mazzy - Valygar relation).

Back to work for me

[Shadowhawke]

It's rare that I take a party without Anomen. He's not quite the staple like Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen are to me, but I romanced him at least twice. I thought that the vulnerable, confused and good man underneath the arrogant exterior was actually done extremely well for him. In other games, it's felt overdone or underdone, but for Anomen, the more I got to know him the more I liked and appreciated his character as being truly three dimensional.

Of course, that's just my 2 cents. At the same time, Anomen never made me swoon like a certain tiefling in HotU did either.

[Adia]

I definitely have gained a lot of respect for Anomen which I didn't have several years back when I first tried the game (when I first played with no mods, I never actually realised I could have romance as I brushed Anomen off with one of the ruder responses!). I think Anomen could do with a friendship mod like the IEP ones for Viconia or Yoshimo as I'd love to have some of his backstory explored in a non-romance play through. Or at least some banters with Mazzy and Keldorn to make up for his early banters with them.

[Guardian]

It's rare that I take a party without Anomen. He's not quite the staple like Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen are to me, but I romanced him at least twice. I thought that the vulnerable, confused and good man underneath the arrogant exterior was actually done extremely well for him. In other games, it's felt overdone or underdone, but for Anomen, the more I got to know him the more I liked and appreciated his character as being truly three dimensional

See.....I feel the same way about Aerie. She is always a staple in my group, along with Minsc and Imoen and Keldorn. I find her to be a rather three dimensional character and at first, yes, I wasn't too crazy about her whining. But, she comes to have major growth as a character, like I know Viconia does. Since I really have no desire to romance Anomen and that I don't care for a personality that has the "I'm better than you" mentality, I just can't bring myself to ever use Anomen again after this run. IF Anomen had Keldorn's humility, then I'd seriously consider taking him. And I thought that helping him become a knight would knock him off that high horse of his, but I found that I was wrong.

I know (obviously) that there are those out there that love him...much as I love Aerie as a character. Just my two cents

[Cal Jones]

I've said before that it's his soundset that bugs me (not the dialogues, though... although I could do without all the "fair lady" and "prithee" nonsense) - the grumpy "What IS it?!" and so forth. But I still find him to be the best Bioware cleric, so if my PC isn't a cleric, I end up taking him anyway. He's always good for a bit of romance conflict, anyway (my female PC always romances mod characters).

[Adia]

Since I really have no desire to romance Anomen and that I don't care for a personality that has the "I'm better than you" mentality, I just can't bring myself to ever use Anomen again after this run. IF Anomen had Keldorn's humility, then I'd seriously consider taking him. And I thought that helping him become a knight would knock him off that high horse of his, but I found that I was wrong.

I know (obviously) that there are those out there that love him...much as I love Aerie as a character. Just my two cents

Heh, it is funny how what turns a person off a character is the same thing that appeals to another. But it is because Anomen's 'better than you' mentality is so obviously fake (because of his huge insecurities and family background) and watching that develop in the romance play through that it is (mostly) tolerable at the beginning. It is actually one of the annoying aspects about non-romancable Anomen - that this is never really explored through the friendship with the PC or the other characters. We never see him actually apologise to Mazzy for being an arse towards her.

[Guardian]

Heh, it is funny how what turns a person off a character is the same thing that appeals to another. But it is because Anomen's 'better than you' mentality is so obviously fake (because of his huge insecurities and family background) and watching that develop in the romance play through that it is (mostly) tolerable at the beginning. It is actually one of the annoying aspects about non-romancable Anomen - that this is never really explored through the friendship with the PC or the other characters. We never see him actually apologise to Mazzy for being an arse towards her.

If this was the case, then he would qualify for that last spot in my party, edging out Mazzy (as I said in another thread, I'm trying to still find that key vital last member of my party and I'm still looking at what mod I'd like to try to fill that slot). However, this is not the case and if some non-romance growth was seen, then I would definitely give him one last try.

And yes, after being told that, it is rather annoying

[Cal Jones]

He does apologise to Keldorn, though. But I agree, he needs an IEP friendship mod pretty badly.
One thing that I find jarring is that he still has some pretty harsh interjects even after he's become a knight (for example, not wanting to waste time finding the men who buried Tirdir alive - something a lawful good character ought to want to solve, IMHO). Romance excepted, he could do with some work.

(Mazzy's friendship mod is pretty good, btw - I played through the SoA portion before my old PC started bluescreening all the time but I hope to finally make it through to the end of ToB this time).

[Itarilde]

One thing that I find jarring is that he still has some pretty harsh interjects even after he's become a knight (for example, not wanting to waste time finding the men who buried Tirdir alive - something a lawful good character ought to want to solve, IMHO)

I second that.

Anyway, I like CN Anomen a bit more than Sir Anomen and way more than the LN version. My character is almost always Chaotic Neutral and it's very natural for me to drag Anomen away from the law and order. Besides, I like corrupting holy knights.

From the other perspective:
LG way: Moira is dead, Anomen's dad is dead, Saerk is alive.
CN way: Moira is dead, Anomen's dad is alive and well (apart from being a bastard), Saerk is dead.
That would be a nice talk, if the <CHARNAME> was a Diviner....

<CHARNAME>: If you kill Saerk, you'll be kicked out of the Order, but your abusive father will be alive. If you refuse to kill Saerk, you'll become a full-fledged knight, but your father will be murdered. So, what's your decision now?
Anomen: WTF?

[Cal Jones]

Ah well, I rarely play the romance so in both instances, Saerk and Lord Cor are both still alive.