8 replies to this topic

[Hannibal]

I figured this is the most appropriate forum to ask these:

1) How do weapon proficiencies work in Torment? I presume the same as BG1, not BG2? Do 5 points in a weapon give you an additional full attack, or a half attack? Is this chart correct for P:T?

2) Same question for the Luck stat. IIRC, one point of luck gives you +1 on pretty much all rolls, but won't go over the maximum, or something like that. Can anyone go into the details? Is there a maximum number of luck you can have?

3) This goes into modding territory; AFAIK, you can only get the Pain Mirror spell if you wait with your mage training till you have access to the trainer in the upper ward. Is there a way to get this by other means? Or a mod/tweak?

4) Is there a way to figure out which dice exactly a weapon uses? For example, I assume 3-23 means 1d20+2. How about 5-12 (Reason, the Godsmen hammer) Sometimes extra damage seems to be included, at other times it's apparently added later. Is there some kind of description update or consistency mod?

[scient]

1. All info regarding proficiencies are in 2da files, mainly WSPATCK and WSPECIAL.
2. Range of luck is -20 to 20. As for how it works, there was a usenet post somewhere in this forum section that talked about it. You get +1 luck at certain base WIS levels (15, 18, 25) and +1 luck for double thief specialization. You also loose luck from fatigue but only Annah and Dak are affected by this, all other PC's have their fatigue automatically set to 0. As to how fatigue works in PST, I haven't really looked into it much. I wouldn't recommend messing around with it until v4 comes out because it is severely broken in vanilla. This is fault of Bioware's IE, not PST dev team. Case in point, BG1 has a total of one luck item and I think even then it's temporary buff (Rabbit Foot or something).
3. SPWI209.SPL, there is also an ITM file scroll which could be memorized. You could use IE action script functions to either cast it on someone or add item into game. See ACTION.IDS
4. Dunno.

I would recommend getting Near Infinity and poking around PST files.

Edited by scient, 01 July 2009 - 04:29 PM.

[Hannibal]

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to modding stuff myself, but Near Infinity was a good tip. I found most of what I was looking for.

So, the 4th proficiency point gives you +2 damage, and the 5th +1 attack/round. Good to know since it's a bit different from either BG or BG2.

I found Avellone's quote about luck. It seems to be really powerful. Looks like I'm going to try out that thief specialization after all.

I'll drop Qwinn a line about Pain Mirror, maybe he'll include a couple of scrolls in the tweakpack.

[Qwinn]

In PS:T, weapon proficiencies work identically to BG1, actually. BG2 is different from both.

Luck in the vanilla game is very broken. Don't expect much reward for your efforts. I'm actually very nervous about it being grossly overpowered once we actually get it working the way it was advertised to.

I'll hold off judging on Pain Mirror until my next test playthrough.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 03 July 2009 - 02:53 AM.

[Hannibal]

In PS:T, weapon proficiencies work identically to BG1, actually. BG2 is different from both.

Luck in the vanilla game is very broken. Don't expect much reward for your efforts. I'm actually very nervous about it being grossly overpowered once we actually get it working the way it was advertised to.

I'll hold off judging on Pain Mirror until my next test playthrough.

Qwinn

Well, not according to my BG1 manual, but I haven't checked BG's game files. Five pips only give you +1/2 attack in the manual, so it's possible it's wrong in other regards too, however.

Luck is perhaps one of the most powerful stats in the game. In short, it gives you +1/pt of Luck for everything the lucky character does, and -1 to anything done to harm the lucky character. This is one of the reasons that Morte seems much more effective than he should be -- he's naturally lucky (1 or 2 points, I believe).

If you want specifics, Luck does the following:

1. Modifies the duration of the Friend spell.
2. For randomized Charisma effects, luck will modify the bonus.
3. For randomized Damage effects, luck will modify the amount.
4. For randomized Heal effects, luck will modify the amount.
5. For randomized Hit Point bonuses, luck will modify the amount.
6. For randomized Luck effects, luck will modify the bonus (Whoa).
7. For randomized Heal Transfer effects, luck will modify the damage taken by the provider.
8. For randomized Embaling effects, luck will modify the hit point bonus.
9. For projectiles, Luck is added to the attack roll.
10. For detecting secret doors, Luck modifies the detection roll.
11. For stealth mode, Luck modifies the chance to succeed.
12. When swinging a weapon, Luck modifies the speed factor of the weapon.
13. When attacking (non-projectile), Luck is added to the attack roll.
14. When applying damage, Luck modifies the amount.
15. When removing traps, Luck modifies your skill.
16. When picking locks, Luck modifies your skill.
17. When bashing doors, Luck modifies your skill.
18. When removing traps, Luck modifies your skill.
19. If an item has been set up as a Random Destroy item, Luck modifies change to destroy.

So it doesn't actually work like this? What does it do then, currently? The one obvious balance issue that springs to mind is the bonus from WIS. WIS is already the most important stat in P:T, and it also giving you all these boni seems a bit extraneous. Is that bonus actually mentioned anywhere except in the code? Because I never knew about it until recently.

If that were removed, I don't think there's many sources of luck increase left. Thieves can get +2 luck over other characters because of the specialization and corresponding Tattoo, but they're a bit underpowered anyway. Not many other sources that I know of. The Luck spell might be problematic, however.

[Qwinn]

Well, not according to my BG1 manual, but I haven't checked BG's game files. Five pips only give you +1/2 attack in the manual, so it's possible it's wrong in other regards too, however.

BG1 does actually give you an entire additional attack at 5 pips, despite what the manual says. And PS:T does as well.

There's this thread that discusses it:

http://forums.gibber...?showtopic=9485

I wonder if you're the Hannibal Rex poster in that thread

So it doesn't actually work like this?

It does actually work like that. And yes, IMO that's way overpowered. But the actual issue is that due to some extreme engine weirdness, if you EVER equipped an item that confers a luck bonus on a character, the Luck spell would never work on that character again. And, multiple items conferring luck bonuses wouldn't stack (but not intentionally, just due to bizarre buginess). So while yes, it would do all those things, you effectively could never get more than a couple of points.

You also wouldn't get the luck bonuses from wisdom if you gained the wisdom via dialogue. You would get it if you added it from levelups at Wis 15, 18 and 25 I think. (I actually thought it was 24, but scient recently said it was 25, so I dunno for sure on that one). I'm not sure what happened if you got to that wisdom score with items. Scient has already done engine fixes for this, and in v4.0 you will get the luck bonuses from wisdom regardless of the source.

Now, when that and the stacking issues are all fixed, you can potentially get as high as 7 points in luck, without the luck spell, if you're a thief.

Wisdom bonus: +3
Thief Specialization: +1
Punch Daggers of Moorin: +1
Tattoo of the Master Thief: +1
Tattoo of the Redeemer: +1

Add the luck spell on top of that, and you're talking potentially +15 luck And oh yeah, you notice he said your luck affects how much more luck you get from the luck spell? It's true. If you have a base 3 luck and cast the luck spell, you automatically get +8 from the spell.

I'm very strongly considering making the spell not stack with any other source, because that'd just be insane. Although, the difference isn't as much as you'd think... once you get to roughly 5 or 6 luck, you will do maximum damage with your weapon on every single swing. But I suspect it -would- confer +15 To Hit. Yikes.

Yes, I'm very worried about it. Yes, it'll get a lot of testing pre v4.0 release, which I intend to test as a thief. I may -need- to do a crapload of nerfing. Clearly due to the bugs mentioned above, when (and if) they actually tested it, it wasn't -actually- that overpowered cause your actual luck was very low due to the bugs. Fixing it could get -very- ugly. I won't change what it does, except maybe to remove luck's effect on the luck spell itself and let it remain random. Other than that, I think the only sane way to deal with it will be to implement some saner stacking rules, cause if all luck stacks with all luck, it'll just get outrageous.

This is one of the primary things I'm going to want to ask MCA about. Probably the first thing I bring up with him. I am hoping he'll grant permission to do some of the nerfs in question. For one, I agree that wisdom is already the most valuable stat by far even without luck, and it might balance things out to have the luck bonus come from a different stat - charisma, maybe, which other than Nordom's stat increase is actually not all that useful. (And, we'd make the Friends spell not add to luck, we'd require the luck bonus to come from base charisma + items only). Another is to nerf the luck spell to 1-4 points rather than 2-8, and make it truly random rather than affected by base luck. Those sort of things, I wouldn't be comfortable doing on my own, but if he gave the nod I'd be happy to.

Honestly, I'm really really glad I did the THACO changes that some people whinged about, such that you only get fighter THACO if you really are a fighter. Between that, and this, there is absolutely no conceivable non-roleplay reason to want to play a fighter in PS:T. A thief with luck stats and the fighter's THACO would kick a fighter's ass in straight melee any day of the week, without even using any thief skills.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 05 July 2009 - 01:26 AM.

[Hannibal]

BG1 does actually give you an entire additional attack at 5 pips, despite what the manual says. And PS:T does as well.

There's this thread that discusses it:

http://forums.gibber...?showtopic=9485

I wonder if you're the Hannibal Rex poster in that thread

Yeah, that's me. I already knew about the extra attack, but getting +2 damage at 4 pips and none at five was what I was referring to. AFAIK, that's different than BG1. (But I actually quite like it.)

It does actually work like that. And yes, IMO that's way overpowered. But the actual issue is that due to some extreme engine weirdness, if you EVER equipped an item that confers a luck bonus on a character, the Luck spell would never work on that character again. And, multiple items conferring luck bonuses wouldn't stack (but not intentionally, just due to bizarre buginess). So while yes, it would do all those things, you effectively could never get more than a couple of points.

You also wouldn't get the luck bonuses from wisdom if you gained the wisdom via dialogue. You would get it if you added it from levelups at Wis 15, 18 and 25 I think. (I actually thought it was 24, but scient recently said it was 25, so I dunno for sure on that one). I'm not sure what happened if you got to that wisdom score with items. Scient has already done engine fixes for this, and in v4.0 you will get the luck bonuses from wisdom regardless of the source.

I'm very strongly considering making the spell not stack with any other source, because that'd just be insane. Although, the difference isn't as much as you'd think... once you get to roughly 5 or 6 luck, you will do maximum damage with your weapon on every single swing. But I suspect it -would- confer +15 To Hit. Yikes.

Yes, I'm very worried about it. Yes, it'll get a lot of testing pre v4.0 release, which I intend to test as a thief. I may -need- to do a crapload of nerfing. Clearly due to the bugs mentioned above, when (and if) they actually tested it, it wasn't -actually- that overpowered cause your actual luck was very low due to the bugs. Fixing it could get -very- ugly. I won't change what it does, except maybe to remove luck's effect on the luck spell itself and let it remain random. Other than that, I think the only sane way to deal with it will be to implement some saner stacking rules, cause if all luck stacks with all luck, it'll just get outrageous.

This is one of the primary things I'm going to want to ask MCA about. Probably the first thing I bring up with him. I am hoping he'll grant permission to do some of the nerfs in question. For one, I agree that wisdom is already the most valuable stat by far even without luck, and it might balance things out to have the luck bonus come from a different stat - charisma, maybe, which other than Nordom's stat increase is actually not all that useful. (And, we'd make the Friends spell not add to luck, we'd require the luck bonus to come from base charisma + items only). Another is to nerf the luck spell to 1-4 points rather than 2-8, and make it truly random rather than affected by base luck. Those sort of things, I wouldn't be comfortable doing on my own, but if he gave the nod I'd be happy to.

Thanks for going into the full detail of this. What a mess. I can certainly understand your hesitation of doing any great changes without some backup from the original devs. I actually quite like that luck is really powerful, despite being a hidden stat, but they've certainly gone overboard with the number of ways to increase it. If it's this powerful, increases should be much more rare.

From what you describe, I'd do two things to counter luck-stacking; remove the WIS bonus entirely; AFAIK, it's never so much as hinted at in the game or manual. I don't think it's needed, or will be missed, and with proper stacking, it's way too powerful. Second, nerf the luck spell to +1d4, completely random. That way, it's still a pretty powerful buff, but not brokenly so. Additionally, you could reduce the spell duration to prevent its use as a perma-buff spell. Luck only lasts a fixed 3 rounds in BG2. On the other hand, in BG2 it also only gives +1 luck, which, together with the duration, makes it a useless spell.

With those two nerfs, balance considerations are pretty much defused. The redeemer tatt remains universal, but it's late-game and you only get it if you let Vhailor rot (or kill him). Thieves get +2 from specialization and their tatt, but considering what they give up for that, it's hardly overpowered. The punch daggers of Moorin are an intermediary weapon, so they're not a big issue either. Mages still can get the best of both worlds however, even with a nerfed Luck spell. Hmm. Reducing its effect to simply +1 luck could also be taken into consideration, but that might be an overnerf. Then again, maybe not, if the duration remains decent.

[Qwinn]

The punch daggers of Moorin are an intermediary weapon, so they're not a big issue either.

Eh. I'd say they're just about as good as any other weapon until the same point where you get the Redeemer tat, at least if you're a fighter or thief. And you get them quite early, in fact they're the first -decent- weapon you come across (in Drowned Nations). They're certainly comparable with any of the Godsmen weapons. I could see someone running with the Moorin punch daggers through a good 60-70% of the game.

Spoiler

Unless you turned in the modron cube for the Entropy blade at some earlier point, before leaving Sigil, but that's a fairly hefty sacrifice.

Thieves get +2 from specialization and their tatt, but considering what they give up for that, it's hardly overpowered.

Other than a bit of THACO, now, because of my changes... and axes/hammers... what do they really give up? That +2 luck makes up for the THACO difference and more besides. I honestly look at being a fighter as giving things up.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 07 July 2009 - 07:14 AM.

[Hannibal]

Eh. I'd say they're just about as good as any other weapon until the same point where you get the Redeemer tat, at least if you're a fighter or thief. And you get them quite early, in fact they're the first -decent- weapon you come across (in Drowned Nations). They're certainly comparable with any of the Godsmen weapons. I could see someone running with the Moorin punch daggers through a good 60-70% of the game.

Their bonus effects are quite nice, but the damage is nothing to write home about. You can get the Brimstone Hammer even earlier, and it's a lot more damaging. Looking through Simpson's list, there seem to be plenty of weapons that are compareable or better you can get before Curst; Ravel's Fingernail, the Hammer of Comminution, the Club of Piercing, the Justifier, the Punch Daggers of Zar'Anun, the Spiked Gauntlets of Ogre Power, etc.

Other than a bit of THACO, now, because of my changes... and axes/hammers... what do they really give up? That +2 luck makes up for the THACO difference and more besides. I honestly look at being a fighter as giving things up.

Weapon specialisation, for one. +2 damage and +1 attack/round is pretty big by itself. The Tattoo of the Supreme Warrior is also nothing to sneer at. Up until Ravel's Fingernail at least, fighters also have exclusive access to the most damaging weapons. Though that becomes a non-issue in the late-game, unfortunately.

Currently at least, fighters can also bypass the prohibitive 18/xx strength increments through their specialization bonus or tattoos, which makes them the only class for which it makes sense to invest in strength. That might change if you go through with your current plans of changing the way it works however, I'm afraid.

Edited by Hannibal, 12 July 2009 - 01:51 PM.