23 replies to this topic

[Aranthys]

I've been thinking about this :
You can have Sarevok become good, you can have Viconia become neutral. Anomen gets to become good.

Something that i would find interesting, and a nice addition to parties, is to have a way to turn Keldorn into a fallen paladin.
Not just a fallen paladin, but he could also get a custom personal kit (think Aribeth de Tylmarande from NWN *wink wink*)

To implement this, the party would be approched by a powerful, evil entity. Maybe a lich (existing or not), could even be the lich from the Crooked Crane... seeking revenge, or anything. Just an evil bad guy that gives us a good opportunity to make the pompous bastard suffer

This would launch a quest where you have to murder his relatives, and have him blame the order for that.

Anyone think this could be a fun addition to evil parties ?

Edited by Aranthys, 18 July 2009 - 04:34 PM.

[Lord-Jyssev]

Hmm.. it does sound interesting! I think it would have to be something else to trigger his downward slope into fallendom, something maybe more subtle and on a personal level. Anomen's sister was killed, and depending on the player's actions, you could seek vengeance (making him Chaotic) or simply let the perpetrator go (making him Good). Perhaps something similar could happen to dear old Kelly? He does have a wife and daughter after all, and also he did catch his wife cheating.

Anyway, pondering aside, I like the idea!

Edited by Lord-Jyssev, 18 July 2009 - 06:56 PM.

[Azkyroth]

I think it would have to be something else to trigger his downward slope into fallendom, something maybe more subtle and on a personal level. Anomen's sister was killed, and depending on the player's actions, you could seek vengeance (making him Chaotic) or simply let the perpetrator go (making him Good). Perhaps something similar could happen to dear old Kelly?

Just calling him "Kelly" to his face might be enough

This is interesting. Another angle you might try: a way of fooling him into believing that his superior in the order is corrupt, like Anarg, getting him cast out when he tries to "bring him to justice".

[Icendoan]

I think roleplaying a Fallen Paladin requires that he make some decisions which are evil or at least against his code: he has to make the choice, he has to actually commit the action. Persuading him that the Order itself is corrupt, perhaps over drink, and him taking the eviller path to try and uncover this, and eventually slips and falls in.

Personally, I think a Lich is an unlikely candidate for something to turn Keldorn evil, because his only reaction at first will be "0MG MUST SM1TE!", whereas an organization such as teh Shadow Thieves as you are working alongside them I feel could be better.

Just my thoughts, though.

Icen

[Aranthys]

Oh, that was just an idea I had in mind
Evil party are lacking members, and we are lacking a "I turn you to evil" option.

Actually developping such a mod would require to :
- Create a Kit for Keldorn
- Modify all interjection / banters of Keldorn to check if he is evil or not (similar to Anomen)
- Implement a quest that would have him turn evil

Os it possible to modify the class of a character ingame ? Or to have him dual class by script ?
You would need to have him dual to a Fallen Paladin / XXX (where XXX is the new Kit)

[Icendoan]

ChangeClass(O:Object*,I:Value*Class), with integer values for Class from class.ids.
AddKit(I:Kit*KIT)

I suggest making a hidden kit called Fallen Paladin which has everything you need in it, so you can have him 'fall' without any of the tricky business of Windspear Hills getting in the way, if it should.

Icen

[Eleima]

Interesting idea, I must say.
I can't believe this hasn't been suggested before, but why wouldn't killing his wife's lover make him fall? This might seem like a stupid question, but I've never actually been down that path, and I was wondering whether that would be enough to have Kelly (love the nickname! ) become a fallen paladin. Wouldn't that be enough? Anomen kinda "falls" himself when he decides to avenge Moira instead of letting the courts handle the matter, he falls with this single event (although he had been more or less proving himself before good old CHARNAME came along). So again, I ask if murdering your wife's lover in a packed inn at Waukeen's Promenade would be enough to get you kicked out of the Order.

Just a thought.

[Icendoan]

It is a question of how you percieve it, and how the honour and law systems of Athkatla handle this sort of thing; since it is technically an affair, is it honourable/legal for him to avenge his own marriage?

I don't have any sort of sourebooks on this sort of thing, so if anyone has any material on this it'd probably clear this sort of thing right up!

Icen

[Aeryn]

I personally don't think there's enough bitterness to Keldorn to realistically make him fall. Aribeth fell because of the (unjust) execution of her lover, and repeated mental torment. She lost her faith in Tyr and her life became meaningless, so she needed something to cling to. Even under the worst of circumstances, Keldorn just doesn't have that kind of angst behind him for me to realistically picture him going down the same road.

And this is coming from someone who loves fallen characters. So, I really like the idea, I just don't see it as feasible within the Keldorn that currently exists.

Now, what I could sort of picture is taking the current situation in his home life to the extreme. If his wife were seduced and murdered, and his children a well, I could see a PC urging him to take vengeance upon the man responsible. If he did take his revenge, I could then picture him wanting to either turn himself in to the Order for punishment, or even take his own life out of the realization of what he's done. Perhaps a persuasive PC could convince him that he did the only reasonable thing, and I can see something like the PC leading him (gradually) down the fallen path. I just don't see him as suddenly waking up one morning as a blackguard. It would have to be something slow and subtle in my opinion.

All that to say, I do like the idea, but I think it would be tricky to make it convincing. My first thought was it would be easier and more believable to just make a fallen paladin NPC from scratch.

[Icendoan]

My opinion exactly. Sudden change is impossible to roleplay.

Icen

[Kulyok]

(thoughtfully) Then again, after Maria's imprisonment, PC could quietly murder his children and the servant, sell his house and thus move him from the path of right. Not impossible, but still difficult to justify, I agree.

[Daggoth]

I know this is a bit late of a reply but i loved the idea and just had to say my bit.

everybody (and i mean everybody) even keldorn has a breaking point its just to the task of finding it one must set themself. In keldorns case i belive that it is his family. The way i see it the best way to drive him past his breaking point is through his family. In my opinion the best way of doing that is for them to be killed. Enter what i belive is the best option the man that keldorns wife was cheating on him with loves her just as much as keldorn does returns trys to convince her to take him back she refuses (either that or we just skip to this part without the love part) he enters if i cant have her no one can and kills her killing keldorn's children as revenge for keldorn taking her from him. your party them chases him down then the choice come when CHARNAME either convinces him to kill the lover/killer or take him in. if you chose to convince him to bring the guy in they put him in jail and you keep the good keldorn. but if you convince him to kill the murderer the raidiant heart the shows up a little later tell him hes been kick fromtheir numbers with no chance of returning this sends him to the darkside (and yes we do have cookies and a very good dental plan).

as to what the class should be called just make him a modifide black guard witch for any who dont know (witch im beting is very few of you) is normaly a prestige clase but i belive it wouldnt be that hard to make work for this purpose

[berelinde]

I'm perpetuating thread necromancy here, but my computer was broken when the original discussion took place, so I never saw it.

I'm with Aeryn on this one. He's already confronted his demons. His faith is too unshakable for his Falling to be credible without some stellar writing and a scenario more personally disturbing than the knowledge that his own wife has betrayed him with another man. And the logistics would be tough. The modder would have to revise all of his existing interjections and banters, incorporate triggers for Fallen Keldorn, and substitute new interjections/banters if he does Fall. Since you don't necessarily know where in the game it would occur, you'd have to rewrite his character throughout the whole game. Far easier to start with a new NPC.

[Daggoth]

I'm perpetuating thread necromancy here, but my computer was broken when the original discussion took place, so I never saw it.

I'm with Aeryn on this one. He's already confronted his demons. His faith is too unshakable for his Falling to be credible without some stellar writing and a scenario more personally disturbing than the knowledge that his own wife has betrayed him with another man. And the logistics would be tough. The modder would have to revise all of his existing interjections and banters, incorporate triggers for Fallen Keldorn, and substitute new interjections/banters if he does Fall. Since you don't necessarily know where in the game it would occur, you'd have to rewrite his character throughout the whole game. Far easier to start with a new NPC.

i agree that the mod would be hard to do but i disagree on the unshakeable part the fact that he forgave his wife shows he truly loves her if she where to be killed then i belive he would be shattered. if when he takes his revenge on the killer if the faith he follows so closely he belives in so fully where to betray him and remove him from their number he would be driven off the deep end into evils welcoming arms (for what is better to make evil then somthing that was once pure and now courrpted)

[xdeathplanetx]

i've saw now this conversation and Daggoth and berelinde says u don't know when his personal quest will start but there can be a solution in my opinion... he's Fall should start with his family is much more simple if u make his wife to do not want him back and maybe discover later that all his family is already dead and everything was planned by some membber of the order and then <charname> can suggest some reveange quest wich little by little take him to chaotic evil (like in hell for the <charname> with your every choose change your behavior) well mine is anly a suggestion don't know if is even possible but just wanted to say

[Azkyroth]

I'm perpetuating thread necromancy here, but my computer was broken when the original discussion took place, so I never saw it.

I'm with Aeryn on this one. He's already confronted his demons. His faith is too unshakable for his Falling to be credible without some stellar writing and a scenario more personally disturbing than the knowledge that his own wife has betrayed him with another man. And the logistics would be tough. The modder would have to revise all of his existing interjections and banters, incorporate triggers for Fallen Keldorn, and substitute new interjections/banters if he does Fall. Since you don't necessarily know where in the game it would occur, you'd have to rewrite his character throughout the whole game. Far easier to start with a new NPC.

Three months is an absurdly unforgiving threshold for "thread necromancy" in a community of this scale and pace.

As for something personally disturbing...hmm. Something involving his daughters either being corrupted or victimized would work for that, if you're serious about doing this.

[Daggoth]

Three months is an absurdly unforgiving threshold for "thread necromancy" in a community of this scale and pace.

actually i commited the crime of raising the dead (im sure keldorn would agree that its a crime) but i dont regret it get me banned if you must but this was and still is somthing i would enjoy seeing and playing and since i know nothing of moding this is the best place considering its the best place i know of to find mods for anything BG and therefore the place i am most likely to find a modder who will take pity and make the mod for me (and for anyone else who wants it) or explain to me how to do it but back to my point if your going to blame anyone blame me im the one that posted first and im more than willing to admit that

as to the topic of the thread my thoughts where only a otion and if its too hard to do its too hard to do my point was more of the fact that everyone can be brought to the side of evil if presented with the right situation

[Azkyroth]

actually i commited the crime of raising the dead

Per the clause you quoted, no you didn't.

find a modder who will take pity and make the mod for me (and for anyone else who wants it) or explain to me how to do it

Have you taken a look at the tutorials section?

However, if you're going to make it yourself, particularly with this community as an audience, may I tactfully suggest you take the time, prior to writing dialogue or other content, to familiarize yourself with the conventions of written English...like punctuation?

[berelinde]

It's tough to get somone to write a mod for you. Most modders have more than enough of their own projects to keep them busy until computers advance past the point where BG2 will run on them. If you're determined to see this through, your best bet is to check out the tutorials section. Once you get a basic idea of how to code, you can use other mods as examples for specific situations. For example, I'm currently working on a mod that provides alternatives to working for Bodhi or the Shadow Thieves in Chapter 3. I wanted a way to make it possible to defeat Bodhi *and* the Shadow Thieves. I'm not really strong on figuring out door and transition triggers with NI, so I looked at Quest Pack for examples of the code I'd use.

[Daggoth]

I will take a look at the tutorials section thank you for that suggestion

as to the grammer thing I can make proper use of punctuation it just takes me more time then I want to spend on a fourm post

now to the part of thread necromancy I actually did post first I just did not word it as thread necromancy my first post was on October 4th at 1:15 AM berlinde's post was on October 4th at 10:42 AM roughly 9 and a half hours after mine so other than the fact that I didnt call it thread necromancy i was the first one to post here since July 21st however since i dont truly care who revived it and its your right to blame anyone you want for it regardless who actually is at fault however that said this is the last time ill say anything about it since its not somthing I care about and not somthing i feel is worth fighting over i know what happend and thats what matters to me

now i am aware that most modders have their own projects but I can always hope that a modder who sees this fourm likes the idea as much as i do and decides to do it but in the mean time ill try my hand at moding with the help of the tutorials section and who knows maby ill be good at it and this idea will become a reality

btw im hoping no hard feelings come from this discussion we have been having id hate to have angered the largest Baldur's Gate moding community i know of within the first few days of signing up for the fourms