108 replies to this topic

[Miloch]

But didn't you say they had rndtre04 on the vanilla bg2 edition?
If so the problem should be that they were never meant to be imported from BG2 to BG1 in the first place...

Yes, and it is undoubtedly BGSpawn responsible for most of this, since you have it installed and it's already been reported in that thread.

Doesn't really make sense for gnolls and the like to have scrolls anyway - I doubt they're even literate. Maybe gnoll shamans if there are any (which would be rare) but even then they'd only have a low-level scroll and use it in combat if they could. Also, if you are introducing more spawns, you probably want to nerf the treasure downward anyway - at least provide an optional component for it.

Also, the author said he doesn't have time to do anything about it. I guess I could look into it if I can find the time, but it wouldn't be just gnolls, but orcs, hobgoblins etc., as melkor_morgoth75 said.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Also, the author said he doesn't have time to do anything about it. I guess I could look into it if I can find the time, but it wouldn't be just gnolls, but orcs, hobgoblins etc., as melkor_morgoth75 said.

I will list all the creatures with unbalanced treasure I find. I change them as I go along anyway.
Are we agreed that rnditm03 and above is unbalanced on generic BG1 creatures?

[melkor_morgoth75]

Also, the author said he doesn't have time to do anything about it. I guess I could look into it if I can find the time, but it wouldn't be just gnolls, but orcs, hobgoblins etc., as melkor_morgoth75 said.

I will list all the creatures with unbalanced treasure I find. I change them as I go along anyway.
Are we agreed that rnditm03 and above is unbalanced on generic BG1 creatures?

I would love to have time and change the treasure system. Honestly that's a BG2 issue, as it seems some creatures could have "unbalanced or weird" treasures.

Anyway OneEyedPhoenix please let me know when u have a list of "unbalanced treasures" for some creatures. i will have a look and try to change all those cre files (and random treasure assigned) within BGSpawn mod (who adds bg2 creatures to bg1 game). Please report that in BGT forum, under BGSpawn pinned topic.

Many thanks,
mm75

[Miloch]

The .tp2 and .baf files etc. are also removed by the Cleanup.bat

Sigh. This "cleanup" thing sounds like a really bad idea if anyone ever wants to find out which mod is causing what.

Are we agreed that rnditm03 and above is unbalanced on generic BG1 creatures?

Well, even in BG1 there are creatures who get all 5 rndtreas. Ogre magi, dopplegangers, skeletal warriors and a couple human enemies get rndtre05. Ogres, flinds, gnolls and some others get rndtre04. More ogres, hobgoblins and some others get rnditm03.

The problem is, the table isn't really set up that intelligently. Even "poor" creatures with rndtre01 can get a scroll. We might consider adding more rows, since it can take up to 9 (4 more). I thought there was a mod that does this but I have only 5 on my BWP install. So maybe add 3 more rows for creatures that are poor, average or wealthy, but too stupid to hang on to a piece of paper as "treasure." The other problem with some of those gnolls is they get *3* of those rndtre04s when it's questionable whether they should have 1. Maybe the flinds would. I guess the PnP treasure tables could offer some input too.

I would love to have time and change the treasure system. Honestly that's a BG2 issue, as it seems some creatures could have "unbalanced or weird" treasures.

Anyway OneEyedPhoenix please let me know when u have a list of "unbalanced treasures" for some creatures. i will have a look and try to change all those cre files (and random treasure assigned) within BGSpawn mod (who adds bg2 creatures to bg1 game).

Well, do you have time? I think it's a problem that goes beyond your mod, but if you think you can do something about it, great. Would save me from looking at it . Though it probably wouldn't take me too long to cobble together some sort of fat patch using a modified CRE Lister and maybe some code from the existing treasure-nerfing components in Aurora's Shoes.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Well, even in BG1 there are creatures who get all 5 rndtreas. Ogre magi, dopplegangers, skeletal warriors and a couple human enemies get rndtre05. Ogres, flinds, gnolls and some others get rndtre04. More ogres, hobgoblins and some others get rnditm03.

The problem is, the table isn't really set up that intelligently. Even "poor" creatures with rndtre01 can get a scroll. We might consider adding more rows, since it can take up to 9 (4 more). I thought there was a mod that does this but I have only 5 on my BWP install. So maybe add 3 more rows for creatures that are poor, average or wealthy, but too stupid to hang on to a piece of paper as "treasure." The other problem with some of those gnolls is they get *3* of those rndtre04s when it's questionable whether they should have 1. Maybe the flinds would. I guess the PnP treasure tables could offer some input too.

So what would be the best way of fixing the problem? Redoing the whole rndtreas.2da table (which I imagine would include changing all relevant .cre's) or just downgrading the treasure of the problematic creatures? I have no problem with gnolls carrying scrolls, as long as it's within reason (Up to level 3 maybe). Anything above level 3 should be too rare for gnolls to ever, realistically, lay their hands on. (Except maybe in exceptional cases)

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 14 September 2009 - 03:06 AM.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Well, do you have time? I think it's a problem that goes beyond your mod, but if you think you can do something about it, great. Would save me from looking at it . Though it probably wouldn't take me too long to cobble together some sort of fat patch using a modified CRE Lister and maybe some code from the existing treasure-nerfing components in Aurora's Shoes.

Well, honestly not ... or at least i don't have time to do a mod that handles that. As u said, it would be great to re-create eventually from scratch all the tables ... that means assign the new tables later to all the creatures in the game. Too much time

But in the meantime i can change eventually at least some of the possible spawned creatures (it should be a painless work and we're speaking about just a handful of cre files ), so that we can reduce the treasure a party could find just wandering around.

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 14 September 2009 - 04:31 AM.

[Miloch]

So what would be the best way of fixing the problem? Redoing the whole rndtreas.2da table (which I imagine would include changing all relevant .cre's) or just downgrading the treasure of the problematic creatures?

Could do it both ways, or offer 1 component with two options. One thing I was thinking of is to add a scripting option that basically junks any random scrolls in the inventory of creatures with intelligence below a certain level (8 or 10 at least I'd say). But it could be just as easy to add a few rows to the treasure table then patch certain CREs to remove the old rndtres and give them new ones that don't include a chance for scrolls. That's probably cleaner, because we don't have to mess with scripts.

I have no problem with gnolls carrying scrolls, as long as it's within reason (Up to level 3 maybe). Anything above level 3 should be too rare for gnolls to ever, realistically, lay their hands on. (Except maybe in exceptional cases)

Actually, gnolls should pretty much never have scrolls, according to PnP (2nd edition anyway). I don't think being in BG2 instead of BG1 would make that any more acceptable. Their intelligence is only 5-7, and according to the PnP treasure tables, your average gnoll would only have about 2-8 gold, or 2-12 platinum (averaging 35 gold or so), probably for leader types. In their lairs, they might occasionally have other stuff like potions or gems, *maybe* a magic item - it's like I said, only a gnoll shaman would ever have a scroll. But do we even have any gnoll lairs really? They started a mod on G3 or PPG to add interiors to the gnoll stronghold, but it ain't finished - that's the only thing I can think of resembling a gnoll lair.

An admin might want to split these topics that talk about redoing the treasure system into a separate thread.

[Darpaek]

What's the intelligence of an orc Miloch? (*snicker*)

[Miloch]

What's the intelligence of an orc Miloch? (*snicker*)

8-9 ("average")... unless they're supra-intelligent half-drow crossbreeds. Not me... I'm a barbarian with little use for flimsy papers .

Regarding their treasure types, it's about the same for them as for gnolls. So they wouldn't be a whole lot likelier to be hauling scrolls around, but they don't seem to be as much of a problem in the game with their rndtres as the gnolls.

I've output a list of all CREs with rnd* items for analysis - I can post it somewhere if anyone else is interested (also will ask an admin to move these posts to a new thread).

[Kaeloree]

Moved some posts here at Miloch's request.

[melkor_morgoth75]

I've output a list of all CREs with rnd* items for analysis - I can post it somewhere if anyone else is interested (also will ask an admin to move these posts to a new thread).

I'm interested for sure

Just my 2 cents here, i believe a "medium/low int" humanoid can carry a scroll ... not necessarily he should be able to use it, but he could be just interested in it having stolen the parchment from someone and keeping it as something special Of course chances of having one should be fairly low.

mm75

[Miloch]

Ok, I've written a component that does the following with random treasures:

1. Duplicate random treasures get deleted so only 1 is retained. This is probably a bug for most CREs - you can tell by looking at it with NearInfinity (multiple slots will have the same item reference).

2. "Poor" creatures (those with rndtre01.itm) have no chance for getting scrolls. They didn't have much before, but it's unrealistic a "poor" person would be casually carrying around a scroll worth 100 gold, given the average treasure spawned for this item row is a coin or two.

3. If the creature has an Intelligence less than 10 or is an ogre (not ogre mage), ghoul, gnoll, basilisk or troll, they have no chance for carrying scrolls or other such magical items. Instead, they'll get a random gem, necklace, ring (nonmagical) or sometimes a minor potion, depending on their item level (rndtre02-05). This is handled by 3 new rows in rndtreas.2da.

I think that might do it, unless people think otherwise. You might wonder why I didn't include orcs, hobgoblins and such with the races in #3. Well, it's because there aren't any in the default game that I saw with INT over 9, so they won't be getting any scrolls either.

There might be some argument for keeping #1 separate (I can't think of a good one, but maybe someone else can). So I could code it something like:
1) Remove duplicate random treasures
2) Only intelligent creatures get scrolls
3) Both of the above

Would be easier not to split it like this, but it's not a big problem either.

Edit: Regarding medium/low INT creatures carrying scrolls, there aren't as many in this category as you may think. I'd agree in theory for medium INT CREs, but magical scrolls really should be quite rare. This is also based on PnP, where it really is quite difficult (impossible for many creatures) to roll a scroll on the treasure tables. And you'd have to do some checking for class, alignment... perhaps thieves may have stolen such, but not your average commoner. As for low intelligence CREs, they probably can't even read, and thus wouldn't be able to distinguish a magical scroll from a worthless piece of scrap paper with doodling on it .

Edited by Miloch, 15 September 2009 - 12:48 AM.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

For some reason I am unable to navigate this thread (can't see the tree).

Anyway, this is the list of problematic creatures I have encountered so far. I will update this as soon as I find more.

[codebox]AEMERHOB.CRE
GNLCAP01.CRE
GNLELI01.CRE
GNLFLI01.CRE
GNLWAR01.CRE
HOBCAP01.CRE[/codebox]

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Of course... These are only the creatures with rndtre03 or above. All gnolls still carry low-level scrolls from time to time.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Ok, I've written a component that does the following with random treasures:

1. Duplicate random treasures get deleted so only 1 is retained. This is probably a bug for most CREs - you can tell by looking at it with NearInfinity (multiple slots will have the same item reference).

2. "Poor" creatures (those with rndtre01.itm) have no chance for getting scrolls. They didn't have much before, but it's unrealistic a "poor" person would be casually carrying around a scroll worth 100 gold, given the average treasure spawned for this item row is a coin or two.

3. If the creature has an Intelligence less than 10 or is an ogre (not ogre mage), ghoul, gnoll, basilisk or troll, they have no chance for carrying scrolls or other such magical items. Instead, they'll get a random gem, necklace, ring (nonmagical) or sometimes a minor potion, depending on their item level (rndtre02-05). This is handled by 3 new rows in rndtreas.2da.

I think that might do it, unless people think otherwise. You might wonder why I didn't include orcs, hobgoblins and such with the races in #3. Well, it's because there aren't any in the default game that I saw with INT over 9, so they won't be getting any scrolls either.

Sounds good Miloch. How are the three new lines in rndtreas.2da used?
I found quite a few creatures assigned with rndtre08 in my game, will they get some inappropriate treasure with this new table?

[Miloch]

For some reason I am unable to navigate this thread (can't see the tree).

Go to Options at the top of this thread and switch to Standard display mode (or whichever you prefer).

Anyway, this is the list of problematic creatures I have encountered so far. I will update this as soon as I find more.

These are all accounted for in this patch, with the exception of the Hobgoblin Captain (hobcap01.cre) who has no random treasure. However, he has a hardcoded Cure Serious scroll which I've removed. He is only 5th level, so I think the Potion of Healing is plenty (plus he can actually use that if you have a mod like SCS - he can't use the scroll).

Gnoll Elite (gnleli01) has nothing but a halberd on unmodded BG2. If someone's given him random stuff, this patch will account for it. Maybe it's Gnoll Veteran (gnlvet01) you're thinking of?

Edit:

Sounds good Miloch. How are the three new lines in rndtreas.2da used?

Lines 6, 7 and 8 are clones of the lines 2, 3 and 4 only with the scrolls replaced by the items I described. Creatures with the stats I described with rndtre02 get rndtre06, rndtre03 get rndtre07 and rndtre04-05 get rndtre08.

I found quite a few creatures assigned with rndtre08 in my game, will they get some inappropriate treasure with this new table?

Can you check your rndtreas.2da and make sure it has only 5 lines? Something like rndtre08 would ordinarily create an invalid item. On my BWP, I found gnoll3, gnoll02 and gnoll03 with this (all low-level gnolls). For these, it would probably be more appropriate to replace with rndtre06 I think (maybe even rndtre01?).

The only other CRE I found was dsclars.cre with rndtre07. This is the vampire Clairis from DSotSC (8th level) - she doesn't have a whole lot of loot so I don't see the problem with her getting a random treasure in that range.

Edited by Miloch, 15 September 2009 - 01:05 AM.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

These are all accounted for in this patch, with the exception of the Hobgoblin Captain (hobcap01.cre) who has no random treasure. However, he has a hardcoded Cure Serious scroll which I've removed. He is only 5th level, so I think the Potion of Healing is plenty (plus he can actually use that if you have a mod like SCS - he can't use the scroll).

Gnoll Elite (gnleli01) has nothing but a halberd on unmodded BG2. If someone's given him random stuff, this patch will account for it. Maybe it's Gnoll Veteran (gnlvet01) you're thinking of?

Yes, it was the scroll that made me list the Hobgoblin captain. I should have specified.

Gnoll Elite (gnleli01) definitely has rndtre04 in my game. Will do a changelog, stay tuned...

Edit: Changelog looks like this:

Mods affecting GNLELI01.CRE:00000: /* from game biffs */ ~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ 0 0 // BG2 Fixpack - Core Fixes00001: /* from game biffs */ ~SETUP-BPV177.TP2~ 0 0 // Big Picture AI/Enhancement Mod, version 177 weidu (beta)00002: ~ATWEAKS/SETUP-ATWEAKS.TP2~ 0 140 // Additional racial traits for Gnomes00003: ~SETUP-XPMOD.TP2~ 0 1 // Reduce to 50%items shatter00004: ~SETUP-XPMOD.TP2~ 0 1 // Reduce to 50%0004: ~SETUP-XPMOD.TP2~ 0 1 // Reduce to 50%

Nothing that would explain our apparent differences here, as far as I can see.

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 15 September 2009 - 01:11 AM.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Redundant post

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 15 September 2009 - 01:09 AM.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Gnoll Elite (gnleli01) has nothing but a halberd on unmodded BG2. If someone's given him random stuff, this patch will account for it. Maybe it's Gnoll Veteran (gnlvet01) you're thinking of?

Strange, he has rndtre04 in my game, and Gnoll Veteran has rndtre02. Changelog revealed nothing much.

Can you check your rndtreas.2da and make sure it has only 5 lines? Something like rndtre08 would ordinarily create an invalid item. On my BWP, I found gnoll3, gnoll02 and gnoll03 with this (all low-level gnolls). For these, it would probably be more appropriate to replace with rndtre06 I think (maybe even rndtre01?).

Only five lines in my rndtreas.2da. Poor, average, well-off, wealthy and rich.
Unfortunately I can't search for rndtre08 with near infinity, but the ones I have seen (at a glance) were gnoll02, gnoll03 and gnoll3.cre.

[Miloch]

Strange, he has rndtre04 in my game, and Gnoll Veteran has rndtre02. Changelog revealed nothing much.

No worries, it's the same on my BWP install, so it could be a BGT or BP thing, who knows. Like I said, they'll get patched only if they have the random treasures, not if they don't.

Unfortunately I can't search for rndtre08 with near infinity, but the ones I have seen (at a glance) were gnoll02, gnoll03 and gnoll3.cre.

DLTCEP does this pretty easily, but I already did it and found the same thing. So I'll replace these with rndtre06 (scroll-less rndtre02) which is what most of the gnoll rabble get.