108 replies to this topic

[Salk]

I would definitely install a mod that reworks from scratch the very poor treasure table so consider me very interested in this (especially if it is Miloch's doing)

[melkor_morgoth75]

Does it help if i provide a full list of all the cre files used by BGSpawn mod?

mm75

[Miloch]

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 15 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

Does it help if i provide a full list of all the cre files used by BGSpawn mod?

Possibly, though you may just want to check that most of the relevant ones are addressed. Attached below in HTML and XLS (the latter is better if you have a spreadsheet program).
 bg2_rand.htm   1.93MB   152 downloads  bg2_rand.xls   368.5K   89 downloads
Note these are just unmodded BG2 CREs, though it'll affect other similar CREs in a Megamod (or Tutu etc.) install.

There could be some fine-tuning to be done to this routine. But before you say "oh, so-and-so could possibly have a scroll", ask yourself, "would they really have a good chance at a (possibly high-level) magical scroll?" If so, it's not a big deal to patch a bunch of these, even to boost their INT from 9 to 10 so they get the chance for scrolls (that boost doesn't otherwise affect them, game-wise).

Also, it might be arguable for dragons (and maybe liches?) to get excluded from the "remove duplicate random treasures" patch. These are some of the few creatures I think might be carrying around a bunch of random magical stuff. Certainly not gnolls having 3 magical scrolls though.

Oh, and I added fire elementals and similar (fire salamanders) to the scroll exclusion. Maybe they could read/use a scroll, but could they hold it without it burning? There's only one or two of these affected though.

[OneEyedPhoenix]

Miloch, on Sep 15 2009, 10:35 PM, said:

Oh, and I added fire elementals and similar (fire salamanders) to the scroll exclusion. Maybe they could read/use a scroll, but could they hold it without it burning? There's only one or two of these affected though.

Probably goes for all elemental types and most undead as well.

Can see you have been busy today...

Edited by OneEyedPhoenix, 15 September 2009 - 02:01 PM.

[Miloch]

OneEyedPhoenix, on Sep 15 2009, 09:59 PM, said:

Probably goes for all elemental types and most undead as well.

There aren't any other elementals in range (by default anyway) and the only undead that retain a chance of getting scrolls are "intelligent" ones like skeleton warriors (not normal skeletons), ghasts (not ghouls), vampires, liches, etc.

Quote

Can see you have been busy today...

Only took a few minutes to modify CRE Lister to output that, and a few more to highlight it. Wrote most of the code yesterday. Now I just have to test and debug it (always the hard part ).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Miloch, on Sep 15 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

If so, it's not a big deal to patch a bunch of these, even to boost their INT from 9 to 10 so they get the chance for scrolls (that boost doesn't otherwise affect them, game-wise).

Unless you have a Mindflayer as one of your NPCs...
Guess I'll just have to give him...to slay the gnolls.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 16 September 2009 - 10:45 PM.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Miloch, just a list of the cre files i added in my mod (u could add those to your list eventually):

- SHOBSL01 (Hobgoblin Slayer)*
- SKOBCHIE (Kobold Chieftain)*
- SGHASTGR (greater Ghast)*
- SELORC01 (Orc Elite)*
- SREVNNT (Revenant)*
- SZOMBL01 (Zombie Lord)*
- SDRUID3 (Druid)*
- SBEARBL (Black Bear)*
- SBEARGR (Grizzly Bear)*
- SXVART (Xvart Monk)*
- SDOGRAB (Rabid Dog)*

So u take care of just the scroll assignment? I thought i would have revised the whole treasure system (lol ... joking mate ),

thanks,

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 16 September 2009 - 01:37 AM.

[Kuugen]

As for revising the whole thing

while orc shamans, or shamans and mages in general should exclusively carry scrolls as random tr and nothing else, most of the less intelligent but humanoid beings ( kobolds, xart ) should carry gems, minor ones, no rings or necklaces
I've seen weird stuff like +2 arrows as random treasure and really...
the medium intelligent ones ( orcs, ogres and the likes ) should be rings and necklaces

for highlevel stuff like dragons and lichs... i dont think random treasure is well advised there, except it's a generic lich, in which case it should mostly drop high-level spell scrolls because that is the whole reason mages become liches. to further study magic

dragons.. are there generic, unnamed dragons? if so, they should have a bit of everything but all high-quality ( diamonds, star saphires, lvl 7-8 scrolls, minor magic rings and necklaces )

does stuff like githianki, illithids, beholder have random treasure?

what kind of stuff would drow have?

I have the second edition ( or 3rd edition? ) monster books ( 1-4 ) here I could look it up if anyone wants.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Kuugen, on Sep 16 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

i dont think random treasure is well advised there, except it's a generic lich, in which case it should mostly drop high-level spell scrolls because that is the whole reason mages become liches. to further study magic

Liches usually try to become Arch-Liches, but as usual they fail a lot, and lot, so the regular Lich cannot actually study magic anymore... just poses a piece of the magic they earlier did, and they are half dead anyway.

Kuugen, on Sep 16 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

does stuff like... beholder have random treasure?

Beholders don't have hands, so they should either have necklaces, or nothing, and they have nothing...

[melkor_morgoth75]

Jarno Mikkola, on Sep 16 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

Beholders don't have hands, so they should either have necklaces, or nothing, and they have nothing...

Eventually some pair of glasses, lol

mm75

Edited by melkor_morgoth75, 16 September 2009 - 05:33 AM.

[Chevalier]

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 16 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

Jarno Mikkola, on Sep 16 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

Beholders don't have hands, so they should either have necklaces, or nothing, and they have nothing...

Eventually some pair of glasses, lol

mm75

I think I read some where they would sallow stuff to carry it around.

[Miloch]

Jarno Mikkola, on Sep 16 2009, 08:52 AM, said:

Miloch, on Sep 15 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

If so, it's not a big deal to patch a bunch of these, even to boost their INT from 9 to 10 so they get the chance for scrolls (that boost doesn't otherwise affect them, game-wise).

Unless you have a Mindflayer as one of your NPCs...

Honestly, you're going to worry about a 1-2 point change (that doesn't even put the CRE in a different bracket) in regards to an NPC that isn't even coded?

Anyway, I only raised the INT of a handful of orc mages, hobgoblin wizards and the like, who *should* be at least a bit smarter than the goblinoid rabble (but not much smarter perhaps).

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 16 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

Miloch, just a list of the cre files i added in my mod (u could add those to your list eventually):

- SHOBSL01 (Hobgoblin Slayer)*
- SKOBCHIE (Kobold Chieftain)*
- SGHASTGR (greater Ghast)*
- SELORC01 (Orc Elite)*
- SREVNNT (Revenant)*
- SZOMBL01 (Zombie Lord)*
- SDRUID3 (Druid)*
- SBEARBL (Black Bear)*
- SBEARGR (Grizzly Bear)*
- SXVART (Xvart Monk)*
- SDOGRAB (Rabid Dog)*

Eh, I don't see any of these, either in the unmodded game or with BGT/BWP/BGSpawn installed. Did you clone them from existing resources or something?

If they have random treasure, this patch will sort them out in respect to the parameters above, regardless of if they're in a mod or not. Some obviously have no treasure at all (bears, dogs).

Quote

So u take care of just the scroll assignment? I thought i would have revised the whole treasure system (lol ... joking mate )

I guess I should make it clear that I'm only dealing with *random* treasures (spawned by rndtre01.itm etc.) not all treasures. And I'm not totally redoing the treasure tables either, though I suppose it's a possibility. I'm just extending them and changing a few things. We're a bit limited because in your average BGT/BWP install, other mods have filled a lot of rows in these tables, and you can only have a maximum of 9 .

Of course, we could work around that by scripting or patching other "random" treasures on CREs, perhaps based on PnP tables. Possibility for future consideration perhaps.

I could also add a possibility I suppose for completely nuking random treasures, or at least making them a lot rarer than they are. Maybe this would be appropriate or desired for someone with BGSpawn who gets a lot of these?

Kuugen, on Sep 16 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

while orc shamans, or shamans and mages in general should exclusively carry scrolls as random tr and nothing else

Like I said, I boosted their INT a bit to give them a *chance* for scrolls, but I don't think they would *only* have scrolls. Of course a shaman might have a potion or a ritual object like a necklace too, as would an orc mage. Think about it - if you had such an NPC in your party, would you give him only scrolls?

Quote

most of the less intelligent but humanoid beings ( kobolds, xart ) should carry gems, minor ones, no rings or necklaces
I've seen weird stuff like +2 arrows as random treasure and really...
the medium intelligent ones ( orcs, ogres and the likes ) should be rings and necklaces

This should be dealt with, either by the existing game or this patch. If you see anything really out of place, either in that spreadsheet above or in the game, point it out. You may be talking about Kobold Commandos with +2 arrows of fire. This is not random treasure, and a deliberate "feature" some other mods deal with (SCS maybe).

Quote

for highlevel stuff like dragons and lichs... i dont think random treasure is well advised there, except it's a generic lich, in which case it should mostly drop high-level spell scrolls because that is the whole reason mages become liches. to further study magic... dragons.. are there generic, unnamed dragons? if so, they should have a bit of everything but all high-quality ( diamonds, star saphires, lvl 7-8 scrolls, minor magic rings and necklaces )

Some do have random treasures, in addition to perhaps specified treasures (probably to give the game some replay flavour I guess). I've permitted these higher creatures to have multiples of these and also the chance for scrolls. In other words, I haven't changed the unmodded game's standard, unless someone thinks it should be (again, considering the constraints we have above). Dragons I think might have scrolls, perhaps in cases buried somewhere in their hoards. They might not be able to use them, but they're intelligent enough to know the value and keep everything they can get their paws on (usually from what adventurers have died in their lairs).

Quote

does stuff like githianki, illithids, beholder have random treasure?

Not really - I didn't see many of them on that list above. Which means they probably have specific treasures.

Quote

what kind of stuff would drow have?

Some of them have randoms, and I haven't changed most of them, which means some would have scrolls too (as they should).

Quote

I have the second edition ( or 3rd edition? ) monster books ( 1-4 ) here I could look it up if anyone wants.

I have them too, and the treasure tables are in the DMG. But whereas that has some 25+ main tables and a bunch of subtables, we can only have 8 main tables with about 5 subtables . Though there are perhaps workarounds like I said, but first things first .

[melkor_morgoth75]

Miloch, on Sep 16 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 16 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

Miloch, just a list of the cre files i added in my mod (u could add those to your list eventually):

- SHOBSL01 (Hobgoblin Slayer)*
- SKOBCHIE (Kobold Chieftain)*
- SGHASTGR (greater Ghast)*
- SELORC01 (Orc Elite)*
- SREVNNT (Revenant)*
- SZOMBL01 (Zombie Lord)*
- SDRUID3 (Druid)*
- SBEARBL (Black Bear)*
- SBEARGR (Grizzly Bear)*
- SXVART (Xvart Monk)*
- SDOGRAB (Rabid Dog)*

Eh, I don't see any of these, either in the unmodded game or with BGT/BWP/BGSpawn installed. Did you clone them from existing resources or something?

If they have random treasure, this patch will sort them out in respect to the parameters above, regardless of if they're in a mod or not. Some obviously have no treasure at all (bears, dogs).

U can't find those in unmodded game 'cause they're added by BGSpawn. Are u sure u don't have them in your BGSpawn install? Weird indeed ... u should honestly. Anyway all of them (apart dogs and such of course) has a random treasure assigned.

mm75

[Jarno Mikkola]

Miloch, on Sep 16 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

Honestly, you're going to worry about a 1-2 point change (that doesn't even put the CRE in a different bracket) in regards to an NPC that isn't even coded?

What do you mean it's not coded, I did the coding, the dialogs, the... so far so, download the v0.093 and then... so I think I should worry about that. And no, it's not a big deal that you raised their INT, as they probably should have that much anyway...

Miloch, on Sep 16 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

I'm only dealing with *random* treasures (spawned by rndtre01.itm etc.) not all treasures... other mods have filled a lot of rows in these tables, and you can only have a maximum of 9

Well, it should be as easy to make the creatures have their own customized starting scripts, like for example replacing all the items they have with a custom one in WeiDU and then assgning them to like this: if the creature has item called IJ#ran1:

IF
	HasItem("IJ#ran1",Myself) // No such index
THEN
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl10","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl11","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl12","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl13","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl14","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #12
		TakeItemReplace("scrl16","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl17","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("scrl18","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("bra08","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("bra11","IJ#ran1",Myself)
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("rin23","IJ#ran1",Myself) 
	RESPONSE #8
		TakeItemReplace("rin04","IJ#ran1",Myself) 
END

And yes, I will use that as assigned creature script in my own mod with a few alterations.
PS:11*8+12 = 100%, and if you are really intressed, look specifically what items it gives.

[Miloch]

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 16 2009, 10:03 PM, said:

Are u sure u don't have them in your BGSpawn install?

Yes (shobsl01 should be between shoal and shop01 and it ain't), but it's probably an old version. Not really important unless your CREs' intelligence needs to be boosted as I did for the Hobgoblin Wizard etc. (doesn't look like it from the names).

Jarno Mikkola, on Sep 17 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

What do you mean it's not coded, I did the coding, the dialogs, the... so far so, download the v0.093 and then...

I didn't see a download link unless it's buried in there somewhere. If it's a released mod, it should go in the first post and the whole thread should go in Misc. Released Mods.

Quote

And no, it's not a big deal that you raised their INT, as they probably should have that much anyway...

Indeed, which is why the above is not really relevant (and rather off-topic anyway ).

Quote

And yes, I will use that as assigned creature script in my own mod with a few alterations.
PS:11*8+12 = 100%

That isn't really how RESPONSE numbers work, from what I understand (see here for example):

Quote

The actual response #s only matter relative to each other (they do not need to total 100), as they act as a weighting.
So, you could have, for example:

IF
	// Triggers
THEN
	RESPONSE #100
		// Action 1
	RESPONSE #100
		// Action 2
END

Maybe your scripting actually works 100% of the time, but if I were you I'd test it at least double that to make sure. Moreover, you're probably going to have lag issues with that. I tried something similar in Aurora but ended up scripting it as separate blocks (and not all on the same CRE), otherwise there was a delay of a few seconds or more while the CREs were spawned and replacing their items, trying to figure out which RESPONSE to pick, and making them easy pickings to cut down (and in the process, probably interrupting their script blocks).

But again, all of that is rather off-topic. I would like to accomplish this without extra scripting, because it can bog the game and interfere with other scripts. And so far, it hasn't been necessary. I've tested and debugged everything (nasty stuff there, but done mostly) - just adding some refinements to the treasure routine. For example, Helmed Horrors and Battle Horrors (in BGT & Tutu) shouldn't be carrying a hefty random treasure - they should only have a few coins per PnP (though what they'd actually do with them who knows). As it is, they're carrying pretty heavy weaponry so I've dropped them to rndtre01. While I'm at it, I might smuggle in their PnP stats (as here). Could make that an optional component, if anyone has strong opinions about it, otherwise I'll just shuffle it in with the treasure change.

[Salk]

Miloch, on Sep 17 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

I've tested and debugged everything (nasty stuff there, but done mostly) - just adding some refinements to the treasure routine. For example, Helmed Horrors and Battle Horrors (in BGT & Tutu) shouldn't be carrying a hefty random treasure - they should only have a few coins per PnP (though what they'd actually do with them who knows). As it is, they're carrying pretty heavy weaponry so I've dropped them to rndtre01. While I'm at it, I might smuggle in their PnP stats (as here). Could make that an optional component, if anyone has strong opinions about it, otherwise I'll just shuffle it in with the treasure change.

Personally I would welcome the PnP changes to Helmed and Battle Horror.

I wonder how you could possibly do all this work in a matter of few days though? Have you been eating enough?

[melkor_morgoth75]

Miloch, on Sep 17 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 16 2009, 10:03 PM, said:

Are u sure u don't have them in your BGSpawn install?

Yes (shobsl01 should be between shoal and shop01 and it ain't), but it's probably an old version. Not really important unless your CREs' intelligence needs to be boosted as I did for the Hobgoblin Wizard etc. (doesn't look like it from the names).

Exactly, there is no need to boost dog's or kobold's chief intelligence Anyway i'm wondering why u don't have the cre files ...

mm75

[Miloch]

Salk, on Sep 17 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

I wonder how you could possibly do all this work in a matter of few days though? Have you been eating enough?

Heh. I eat like an orcish barbarian .

I guess I can do this sort of coding pretty quickly now, though it can be a pain to debug when the engine doesn't do stuff correctly. One of the Wonders of WeiDU is that it can patch a bunch of files at once, so it's not like I have to individually code every CRE change.

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 17 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

Anyway i'm wondering why u don't have the cre files ...

Well as it turned out, BGSpawn was present on my BWP directory but not actually installed . Anyway, I (re)installed it and generated the CRE List of random treasures from BWP to make sure I didn't miss anything.

So the full list of exclusions for getting scrolls is now:
INT < 10
Summoned CREs
Basilisks
Ghouls
Ghoul_Revenants (includes Mummies)
Gnolls
Ogres
Ogre_Halfogres
Ogre_Ogrillons
Beholders
Trolls
Umberhulks
Mist
Elemental_Fire
Zombies

Some CREs get a minor INT boost (spellcasters as mentioned above), some get a minor decrease (most commoners, non-casting orcs, etc.). The only real effect of this on non-mages is a lore penalty, but you probably wouldn't notice anything gameplay-wise even if you made a full party of mindflayer NPCs ().

This is pretty much done and tested, just working on a related component. So far it has the following:

Realistic random treasures
1) Remove duplicate random treasures (except for dragons and liches)
2) Only intelligent creatures get scrolls
3) Both 1 and 2 (no treasures lost)
4) Both 1 and 2 (25% of treasures lost)
5) Both 1 and 2 (50% of treasures lost)
6) Both 1 and 2 (75% of treasures lost)
7) All random treasures removed

So if you find you're getting too much treasure, you can reduce it all the way down to nothing if you want.

PnP Helmed and Battle Horrors - I made this separate because it can really make these guys quite scary, which they already are in a BG1 game. But if you want the challenge and PnP authenticity, it's there . Should be compatible with SCS and D0QuestPack which also changes these guys, but not in the same ways.

[melkor_morgoth75]

Miloch, on Sep 18 2009, 01:06 PM, said:

melkor_morgoth75, on Sep 17 2009, 02:29 PM, said:

Anyway i'm wondering why u don't have the cre files ...

Well as it turned out, BGSpawn was present on my BWP directory but not actually installed .

Be aware please of this check:

Quote

REQUIRE_PREDICATE (FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~AMNSCENE.BCS~) @1

and this one as well:

Quote

ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~FW01230.BCS~ THEN BEGIN // Check if BGT-Tutu levelled spawn is installed

mm75

[melkor_morgoth75]

Miloch, on Sep 18 2009, 01:06 PM, said:

[This is pretty much done and tested, just working on a related component. So far it has the following:

Realistic random treasures
1) Remove duplicate random treasures (except for dragons and liches)
2) Only intelligent creatures get scrolls
3) Both 1 and 2 (no treasures lost)
4) Both 1 and 2 (25% of treasures lost)
5) Both 1 and 2 (50% of treasures lost)
6) Both 1 and 2 (75% of treasures lost)
7) All random treasures removed

First ... u rock mate

I just don't understand the 1st option. What does it mean "remove duplicate tresure"? And also how the % works? I mean ... if a Xvart has a little gem, how is it handle to be reduced to 25% for example?

Tx,

mm75