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A thank you, a comment, a question


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#1 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:20 PM

Hello! Someone I talked to on the Team Gizka forums gave me a link to this place a while ago, and lately I felt like re-playing PS:T so I got all 4 mods.

I ended up using the first three, not the GUI thing though because my monitor kinda hates all the resolutions you support (well I hate them too). Wish there was a 1024x768 option. Anyway. I love the mods. Fixes and tweaks are always good, I noticed some of them but I am sure there's a ton I'm not consciously aware of and yet that seem to make a difference (though maybe it's something akin to placebo effect ;) ). And I love what restored bits I've discovered so far, as well. For instance, the initial Ingress' Teeth dialogue had me laughing out loud.

Haven't gotten that far yet, but looking forward to the increase in banter, too.

One bit of a comment I'd have is that the Morte vs female zombies flirt lines seemed a little random. If I had been a new player and hadn't read the readmes thoroughly, it would have been confusing. At one point he went with one of the lines after I talked with a male zombie (the one doing the rule-of-three walk), another time while I was around Dhall. It's not as clear as I think it could be that Morte is talking to the females. If I may make a suggestion, that could be done better.

I'm not sure why it's like that, anyway - did you guys tie the triggers for Morte's lines to specific places? Then the problem is that the zombies walk around and change locations, so a particular female zombie might not be standing where you thought it would be when you placed the trigger. Maybe they should be tied to actually interacting with the given zombies? it's just a thought; I'm no modder, so just throwing up feedback as a player. :)

And something I'd want to ask about: if I accepted Adyzoel's challenge and killed him on the spot, did I lose any plot exposition/future quests? Also, if I try to back out of the conversation, he behaves strangely and I have the option of "wait and see what happens" but nothing particular happens except he becomes aggressive again - am I supposed to investigate this somehow, or am I failing to meet some wisdom/intelligence check, or what? It's a little confusing, as if it should lead to something but it doesn't.

Again, great work with the mods, and thanks for putting in the effort!

Markus

PS. As an afterthought, one thing I really didn't like was the "change the nature of a man" reference in Mebbeth, after TNO has slept in her hut. It gives away the secret too early; when I originally played the game, I only had a vague suspicion about Mebbeth and I was delighted to see it confirmed later, but now you get a very strong hint in a way that IMO is premature.
But maybe that's me, and others have found this bit an improvement over the vanilla game?
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#2 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 10:02 PM

Oh and hm did you guys intentionally remove the ability to sell the skulls of Soego, Silent King etc to shops? I thought I could remember being able to sell them for decent monies...
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#3 Qwinn

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:54 PM

At one point he went with one of the lines after I talked with a male zombie (the one doing the rule-of-three walk), another time while I was around Dhall.


Yeah. The problem is that every time you talk to a female zombie it cues Morte's AI script to kick off a zombie flirt, but it doesn't always happen right away. For some weird reason, sometimes it may not happen for a -significant- amount of time, like not until after you've gone and talked to someone else and it seems like it's in response to the latter conversation. I don't know why this is, these scripts are supposed to run continuously and repeatedly, in theory several times a second, but in practice sometimes only once every few seconds. There's no way to change or tweak how often they run either, unfortunately. Usually you -do- get the line right away, but sometimes it just seems to hang.

Unfortunately there is no other mechanism available by which I can trigger them at all. Well... in -theory- I could make the flirt actually be part of the dialogue of the female zombie itself, rather than triggering after the dialogue ends. But the problem -there- is 1) it would be one hell of a lot more work to accomplish, and the method I actually did wasn't exactly work-light either, 2) I think it would be a lot harder to randomize the flirts properly, if possible via this method at all, though I could probably make them sequential, and 3) it would require setting up dialogues with what are essentially upward of 27 and in some cases 54 replies/transitions, though you would only -see- a couple of them. Not sure how much the IE engine would like that, there's nothing like it anywhere else in game.

I suspect technical issues of this nature is probably what got them cut from the game in the first place. I think they're still worth having available as a restoration though.

And something I'd want to ask about: if I accepted Adyzoel's challenge and killed him on the spot, did I lose any plot exposition/future quests?


It's one possible way to resolve the Pendant of Yemeth quest, though probably not the most satisfying one. I agree that the Adyzoel encounter is rather weird and unfortunately results in making him aggro and ends the PoY quest early a bit too easily. Before I release v4.0 I promise to take a deeper look at his dialogue and see if maybe this is a result of a misplaced transition or something to that effect that I can legitimately fix.

PS. As an afterthought, one thing I really didn't like was the "change the nature of a man" reference in Mebbeth, after TNO has slept in her hut. It gives away the secret too early; when I originally played the game, I only had a vague suspicion about Mebbeth and I was delighted to see it confirmed later, but now you get a very strong hint in a way that IMO is premature.
But maybe that's me, and others have found this bit an improvement over the vanilla game?


I personally liked that bit, and this is the first complaint I've heard of it. I didn't really think it was such a giveaway, the main thing being discussed is dreams, the nature of a man reference seems throwaway at the time (and others besides the Ravel/Mebbeth incarnations make references to it, it's not as if it was a secret). The lines really are in Mebbeth's original dialogue file (albeit orphaned due to the scripting that makes it fire being disabled), and seeing as how -all- of the game's post-rest dialogues were disabled (others being Emoric and Phineas T. Lort) that suggests that it not being in the shipped game had more to do with it being post-rest, and probably for technical reasons, than it did the specific nature of her dialogue.

Oh and hm did you guys intentionally remove the ability to sell the skulls of Soego, Silent King etc to shops? I thought I could remember being able to sell them for decent monies...


Did you previously pay with KungFuMan's Restoration Pack? I believe he made them sellable in that, but that's not a change from the original that I decided to implement.


Thanks a lot for your kind words! And for the constructive feedback, it's always appreciated even if it doesn't result in changes.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 11 October 2009 - 03:00 PM.


#4 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 10:36 PM

Thank you for your kind response :) If you're serious about the feedback, I'll continue.

Re: Mebbeth
You know, you're perfectly right. If this were my first playthrough, this wouldn't be a givaway because at that point in the game I wouldn't be aware of Ravel's obsession with that question. Moreover, I remember Fell mentioned it either, and I'm pretty sure he's not one of Ravel's "branchings" ;). OK, I withdraw my complaint, wasn't fully thought-through.

Re: zombie flirts
Gotcha. I agree with you that it's worth it even with this problem. I just pointed it out in case it were some trivial and easily corrected error in implementation. Guess life isn't that easy, huh.

Re: Skulls
Yeah I had -something- installed, don't ask me what because I simply went and cleared my mod folder when I saw your mods. (And then I had to re-download Widescreen :P).
Still, it'd be nice if at least Lothar bought them. Otherwise they're kinda pointless unique items. And it makes perfect sense for Lothar.

Re: Adyzoel
OK, now I realize that I should have talked to the fiends in the bar. (I guess it was obvious to everyone else but I'm a confused berk like that). And not doing so made me not get the quest until it was all over anyway.

What's actually buggy about it though is that despite never getting the quest, when I eventually talked to the Rake-person my dialogue options looked like I was on a mission to assassinate him. Essentially I said something more or less like "I'm here to kill you", even though TNO had no reason to do that at that point. So in short, the behaviour of those mobs when the quest is -not- triggered may need looking at.

Also, there should be an actual quest entry in the journal after talking to Ratbone and then a new one after talking to the fiends. I re-tested the quest and there was nothing.

____________

I've progressed through a great deal of the game now and I have more thoughts.

- I love the full HP rolls when levelling. It only makes the game slightly easier, no big deal, and removes the great temptation to reload saves, which is no fun but you feel cheated out of HP when you don't reload after a shitty roll. ;) I read somewhere else on these forums that there were doubts if this was a good idea for a "recommended" tweak - I definitely support it, it's great and should be recommended IMO.

- I love the banter. The frequency increase alone makes the installation worth it. Love it, love it. Nordom talking to his crossbows and Grace being "oh" about it was hilarious. So thanks for that. :)

- I'm glad that "explore all areas", "identify all items" and "rest everywhere" aren't in the recommended part. That would have been pretty stupid.

- minor problem I noticed. After you've recruited Ignus, most people in the bar (rightly) lose the "who's that burning man" dialogue option. Ilquix doesn't, however - I assume that's unintended. Not a big deal, just something that caught my eye.

- semi-minor problem: If I solve Reekwind's problem before getting him to tell the story about Ignus, I can't open the dialogue line with Ignus where he tells me I was his teacher. Even though Reekwind "tells me" those stories by putting them in my journal, I can ask Ignus only about the burning of the Alley but not about who taught him. (I tested on a previous game save - getting the story out of Reekwind -before- lifting the curse would have allowed me to ask both). Could something be done about that please?

- Alley of dangerous angles
From the readme: "Thankfully, I found other buried dialogue files (and these following the correct PS:T naming conventions) where they are actually aware of events unfolding around them, will comment on them, and they will no longer be, down to the last man and woman, maniacally obsessed with your 10 copper piece toll."
This didn't happen for me. The Alley played out for me exactly as it had during previous playthoughs:
- I refused to pay toll
- given gang became aggro to me
- I wiped out the entire gang with no option to stop and no gangmembers regaining any sense of self-preservation.
If I understand the readme right, this shouldn't have happened?
Not that I care. I like it a lot the way it is ;) *likes wiping out thugs*

- Modron maze difficulty: on the hard Rubicon setting, it's already pretty difficult compared to whatever you're likely to have encountered in the game so far. With the constructs running instead of walking, in that relatively small space, it becomes a little silly. Of course it's nothing I can't handle on per-one-encounter basis, but considering you have to survive many such encounters in order to find Nodrom and then the wizard, it just gets -tedious- with all the healing, running back and forth to rest up spells etc. Unless I just park the whole party somewhere and just run across with TNO, avoiding the constructs, but where's the "dungeon-exploring" fun in that? :)

So I don't think making it harder (making them run) was a good move, overall. It's an optional part of the game whose reward is a difficult-to-realize-he's-even-there companion. Let's not make it prohibitive. Er, I mean more prohibitive than it already was originally.

- Bug after defeating Ravel:
Ravel starts the conversation with TO lying on the ground as she should, but from when she first speaks ("Off with you, dead I am") she appears standing again. (She does go through the standing up animation once the conversation gets to the right point, though.)

- Ellon Eva Duplication spell - is it restored or was it in the vanilla game already?
Just gotta say I love it.
Nameless one casts Duplication on Grace -> Grace calls Lightning on Ravel -> we get one fried night hag... ;)

- minor question/suggestion
Probably a very long shot, but would it be possible to let the Nameless One actually use the Godsman items after becoming a Godsman? NO wearing a foundry worker's apron would be awesome *grin* They wouldn't have to actually bestow any bonuses (well maybe a fire protection from the apron would make sense). ATM the items can only be held in inventory, which is silly.

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 12 October 2009 - 06:40 PM.

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#5 Qwinn

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 12:54 AM

Glad to hear I addressed some of your concerns sufficiently already :) I'll just remark on the rest at this point.

Still, it'd be nice if at least Lothar bought them. Otherwise they're kinda pointless unique items. And it makes perfect sense for Lothar.


Eh. Well, they have a -use-, it's just that you only need one and there's several available. If I did this, it certainly wouldn't go into the Fixpack. I -may- use Lothar as a source for some of the unused or enemy-only spells, should I get around to doing that. I don't think it'd be appropriate for Lothar to deal in copper, but I could see him trading spell scrolls or maybe even as part of a Spell Key restoration. Not sure if such a mod would go into UB or Tweak Pack yet.

What's actually buggy about it though is that despite never getting the quest, when I eventually talked to the Rake-person my dialogue options looked like I was on a mission to assassinate him. Essentially I said something more or less like "I'm here to kill you", even though TNO had no reason to do that at that point. So in short, the behaviour of those mobs when the quest is -not- triggered may need looking at.


Yes, I agree Adyzoel's dialogue needs looking at. I'll see what I have to play with in the dialogue file for fixing/restructuring that dialogue to make more sense.

Also, there should be an actual quest entry in the journal after talking to Ratbone and then a new one after talking to the fiends. I re-tested the quest and there was nothing.


No plans for this for the time being... I agree such entries -should- exist, but they don't, and as I've stated elsewhere I'm loathe to intrude my own writing into a restoration without a -really- compelling reason, as that turns many people off from installing it at all.

I love the full HP rolls when levelling. It only makes the game slightly easier, no big deal, and removes the great temptation to reload saves, which is no fun but you feel cheated out of HP when you don't reload after a shitty roll. ;) I read somewhere else on these forums that there were doubts if this was a good idea for a "recommended" tweak - I definitely support it, it's great and should be recommended IMO.


I also find it pretty much irresistible to reload bad HP rolls. It's a weakness of mine. That said, the fact that it makes the game significantly easier shouldn't be underestimated, and since the game is too easy as is IMHO, I don't want to give it a "strong" recommendation. It'll probably be somewhere in the middle of the tweak list.

I love the banter. The frequency increase alone makes the installation worth it. Love it, love it. Nordom talking to his crossbows and Grace being "oh" about it was hilarious. So thanks for that. :)


Glad you like :) It is my favorite tweak as well.

I'm glad that "explore all areas", "identify all items" and "rest everywhere" aren't in the recommended part. That would have been pretty stupid.


Explore All Areas no longer exists, it is now Explore City Areas, and that one I -do- recommend strongly, because many city areas have unreachable areas that can't be uncovered in any way, and that prevents some really nice artwork from ever being seen. It doesn't confer any gameplay advantage either, so no gripes about it in that respect. Rest Anywhere might as well be God Mode.

minor problem I noticed. After you've recruited Ignus, most people in the bar (rightly) lose the "who's that burning man" dialogue option. Ilquix doesn't, however - I assume that's unintended. Not a big deal, just something that caught my eye.


That does sound like a bug to me, particularly if you can get it even if you've parked Ignus outside of the building. I'll look into it, thanks for the report.

- semi-minor problem: If I solve Reekwind's problem before getting him to tell the story about Ignus, I can't open the dialogue line with Ignus where he tells me I was his teacher. Even though Reekwind "tells me" those stories by putting them in my journal, I can ask Ignus only about the burning of the Alley but not about who taught him. (I tested on a previous game save - getting the story out of Reekwind -before- lifting the curse would have allowed me to ask both). Could something be done about that please?


If you mean that you -do- get the same story via a journal entry that you could've gotten in dialogue, but it doesn't open up the same dialogue option with Ignus that his telling it to you verbally does... then, yeah, that seems very odd and quite possibly unintended, I'll look into it. On the other hand, if you just mean that you solved Reekwind's problem without hearing Ignus's story from him at all, I feel pretty safe in saying, that's the breaks. No reason I can think of to believe that wasn't intended.

This didn't happen for me. The Alley played out for me exactly as it had during previous playthoughs:
- I refused to pay toll
- given gang became aggro to me
- I wiped out the entire gang with no option to stop and no gangmembers regaining any sense of self-preservation.
If I understand the readme right, this shouldn't have happened?


No. The dialogue I'm talking about is only relevant if you pay the toll and actually talk to thugs besides the specific toll-taker one.

The incorrectly named dialogues that the non-leader/non-tolltaker thugs shipped with have like 2 lines, both obsessed with whether or not you paid your toll. The restored and properly named dialogue files give them like 7 lines each, dependent upon what step you're in in either Krystall or Rotten William's quests.

Modron maze difficulty: on the hard Rubicon setting, it's already pretty difficult compared to whatever you're likely to have encountered in the game so far. With the constructs running instead of walking, in that relatively small space, it becomes a little silly. Of course it's nothing I can't handle on per-one-encounter basis, but considering you have to survive many such encounters in order to find Nodrom and then the wizard, it just gets -tedious- with all the healing, running back and forth to rest up spells etc. Unless I just park the whole party somewhere and just run across with TNO, avoiding the constructs, but where's the "dungeon-exploring" fun in that? :)


Does it really increase difficulty that much in the maze? The rooms are much too small to try to kite around in effectively. Actually it was the modron maze (along with Baator) that motivated me to do the RunningAttack fix in the first place, I couldn't take every single one of these guys continually repeating "It leaps to the attack!" and then slowly lumbering toward me at a snail's pace. Totally killed my immershun, YMMV.

That said, you raise a good point about the tediousness of the maze. There are other global fixes I was pondering doing that might have resulted in actually making them stronger (like filling in blank weapon proficiencies), but based on what you're saying, I will be careful/hesitant before doing anything like that going forward.

So I don't think making it harder (making them run) was a good move, overall. It's an optional part of the game whose reward is a difficult-to-realize-he's-even-there companion. Let's not make it prohibitive. Er, I mean more prohibitive than it already was originally.


Well, it also has the reward of being the source of many items, many of them useful, and most worth a comparatively ridiculous amounts of copper that lets you buy pretty much anything available in stores. As tedious as it is, I think most people do it anyway, and not just for Nordom. But yes, I won't do anything to increase the difficulty of the Hard maze without a really compelling reason. However, I think the RunningAttack fix on them -is- a really compelling reason, and actually I found that their engaging quicker made the whole thing go slightly faster for me.

Ravel starts the conversation with TO lying on the ground as she should, but from when she first speaks ("Off with you, dead I am") she appears standing again. (She does go through the standing up animation once the conversation gets to the right point, though.)


Yeah, this is a result of the Subtitled Cutscenes mod... I tried like -hell- to fix it for its first version, but there was simply no way to get her to deliver the line in a dialogue box that didn't force her to stand up, its just part of the engine mechanics. In the end, I decided that the first few lines in that scene would be delivered by stringheads above their heads rather than in an actual dialogue box, it's the only way I could see to resolve that problem while still allowing some means for those lines to be translated into other languages.

In summary: It's fixed for version 4.0.

- Ellon Eva Duplication spell - is it restored or was it in the vanilla game already?
Just gotta say I love it.

Nameless one casts Duplication on Grace -> Grace calls Lightning on Ravel -> we get one fried night hag... ;)


That really is in the vanilla game, and yeah, no kidding, mega powerful spell.

- minor question/suggestion
Probably a very long shot, but would it be possible to let the Nameless One actually use the Godsman items after becoming a Godsman? NO wearing a foundry worker's apron would be awesome *grin* They wouldn't have to actually bestow any bonuses (well maybe a fire protection from the apron would make sense). ATM the items can only be held in inventory, which is silly.


You mean make those items equippable? The apron wouldn't actually appear on the paperdoll, there are no graphics for that. As long as no one was expecting that... it's a neat idea for a little mini-tweak, and I'd agree that giving the apron some fire resistance would be appropriate, but honestly, it's relatively low on my priority list, I do still have what I consider bigger fish to fry before I'd get around to it :) Neat idea, though.

I said this a long time ago, but not recently, so let me reaffirm: If any other modders do come up with ideas like this and want to implement them, knock yourselves out, please. I don't own the modding rights or anything :) And if someone does do a neat WeiDU tweak and would like to conveniently distribute it widely by having me package it in my tweak pack or whatnot, with full credit given of course, send me a PM, I'd certainly consider it.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 13 October 2009 - 01:11 AM.


#6 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 07:52 AM

Thanks again for the reply!

I don't think it'd be appropriate for Lothar to deal in copper

But he already does! You can buy healing, spells, charms and even (go figure) needle and thread from him. Compared to that, buying skulls is far more in-character for him. Not the wererat ones, though, he already indicates that he doesn't want anything as common as that, just the unique ones.

Also, there should be an actual quest entry in the journal after talking to Ratbone and then a new one after talking to the fiends. I re-tested the quest and there was nothing.


and as I've stated elsewhere I'm loathe to intrude my own writing into a restoration without a -really- compelling reason, as that turns many people off from installing it at all.

Understood, though I'd argue the bad doesn't outweigh the good in this case, since we're not talking actual dialogue, just a journal entry or three. But I understand the sentiment, that's part of why I approached these mods with such optimism - because it was clear from the readmes that you felt that way and I wouldn't be playing someone's personal "adding more cool stuff to the game" mod. So no big deal, especially since you say you'll be looking into the actual scripting/dialogues of the characters involved (which is what really matters).

If you mean that you -do- get the same story via a journal entry that you could've gotten in dialogue, but it doesn't open up the same dialogue option with Ignus that his telling it to you verbally does... then, yeah, that seems very odd and quite possibly unintended, I'll look into it.


Yeah that's what I meant. There are actually two stories, one about the Alley being burnt, then one specifically about Ignus, and you get both of them either way.

No. The dialogue I'm talking about is only relevant if you pay the toll and actually talk to thugs besides the specific toll-taker one.

Oh good. I'll keep happily cleansing that place with no fear of a "fix" ruining my fun, then! (Why can't I join Mercykillers again? ;) )

Does it really increase difficulty that much in the maze? The rooms are much too small to try to kite around in effectively.


Are they? Previously, if the constructs targetted someone vulnerable in my party (the girls), I could keep them out of harm's way by running around and behind my other characters, giving me enough time to give Morte multiple attempts at Litany of Curses or NO+Dak'kon enough time to unleash some serious spellcasting. I find it harder now; I still win the fights but more wounds are taken -> more healing afterwards -> more running back to the safe area to rest up -> more tedium.

Also, they had this nice metal-zombie-like feel to them, slower and stupider than you but still implacably coming after you.

That said, you raise a good point about the tediousness of the maze. There are other global fixes I was pondering doing that might have resulted in actually making them stronger (like filling in blank weapon proficiencies), but based on what you're saying, I will be careful/hesitant before doing anything like that going forward.


Yeah, make me feel guilty about spoiling your fun :P

However, I think the RunningAttack fix on them -is- a really compelling reason


Well, I can live with it :)

Ravel starts the conversation with TO lying on the ground as she should, but from when she first speaks ("Off with you, dead I am") she appears standing again. (She does go through the standing up animation once the conversation gets to the right point, though.)


Yeah, this is a result of the Subtitled Cutscenes mod...


So if I don't install that component, that won't happen?

The apron wouldn't actually appear on the paperdoll, there are no graphics for that.

Yeah I guess I expected that. Pity though. The NO running around essentially naked got old for me. ;) At least in Kotor 2 the Exile found clothes after 15 minutes of play, and Atton -still- had to remark on that! In PS:T, everyone notices the scars on the NO but nobody actually cares that he's not very much dressed...

it's a neat idea for a little mini-tweak, and I'd agree that giving the apron some fire resistance would be appropriate, but honestly, it's relatively low on my priority list, I do still have what I consider bigger fish to fry before I'd get around to it :) Neat idea, though.

Thanks! And yeah I totally understand.

_________________________

Question: Now that I can see Morale on companions, I can't help wondering what it even -does-. I know it affects Dakkon's karach blade, but anything else? Does it affect anything if I keep, say, Grace happy, or Morte?

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 13 October 2009 - 07:53 AM.

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#7 Qwinn

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 08:09 AM

It doesn't do much. It does affect their almost-final dialogue, right before you go through the portal to the Fortress, and a couple of other very minor places. Of course, if it has some secret mystery effect on their combat ability in the engine, that would probably remain pretty well hidden and we'd never know.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 13 October 2009 - 08:11 AM.


#8 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 10:11 PM

My last argument about the skulls was not very compelling? ;)

____

Curst Underground:

- Hm, after I killed of all Lemures and Nupperibos, only one of the two Red Abishai became hostile to me. I imagine this is not intended?

- Couldn't find Tek'elach at first. He was obscured by the wall/scenery, so I ran past him like 10 times. Could he be put somewhere in the open where one can actually see him, please?

- Bug: choosing to attack a Red Abishai through dialogue did not make the fiend hostile. It should.

Prison:
- Walking through what I think is the middle ring, I got 87500 exp out of the blue. What is that about? I don't remember it from before, but I could be wrong.

- Possibly bad item description
All bodices are described as 5 AC.
Well, currently, Fall-From-Grace wears a 5 AC armor, and a -2 ring, another -2 ring, -2 philactery (I know it's gross, but she's the only one who can make use of it, since I have a mage guard for NO. And it doesn't carry a hit to Charisma, so it must be nobody who sees her minds. ;) ), -2 earrings. That would be -3 AC total, right? Yet somehow it's -8.
And when I take off all items except the bodice, her AC instead of being 5 becomes 0. Also when I cast Shield on her, her AC doesn't change. Even though Shield is AC 3 as opposed to the bodice's stated 5.
I don't -mind- the better effective AC at all, of course ;) just would like to understand, is there a wrong description on the bodices or just me not getting how AC works.

- Comment/suggestion: the allignment penalty for trying to sell out your companions to the Pillar feels very light. It's kind of a MoralEventHorizon kind of thing for me (Morte's screams are heart-rending :P) so I feel it should be punished (or rewarded, if that's your inclination) with a more substantial evil shift. At least that's me.

- Telling Annah that Pharod earned his fate at the Pillar of Skulls, isn't that a Lawful option? Shouldn't it shift alignment that way?

- The fiend from Moridor's box: bug?
It seems to save from most spells for zero damage in a way that doesn't fit the descriptions of the spells.
For instance, I have reloaded saves multiple times trying to hit the damned thing with Chain Lightning Storm. It saves every time, even though the spell description says a save results in half damage, so there still should be damage shown.
Same for Stygian Storm. It says 8-64 damage with no saving throw. But I have yet to see the fiend take damage from it despite multiple attempts. All I see is that it made a magic save.
When I try Ball Lightning, it doesn't even bother to show a save (should I be insulted? ;) ), just nothing happens.
So, is it a bug? Or is it again my unfamiliarity with D&D? Or is damage applied, but not shown?

- Missing execution victim?
In Curst/Carceri, there is an execution going on in the southwest corner that I can stop. There was the judge, executioner, and people watching. Seems the actual victim is missing though.
According to another site, it's supposed to be An'azius. Well, An'azius didn't survive my expedition to Curst Prison *blinks innocently* because, being a responsible citizen, I stopped all those trying to escape the prison (what injustice that I lost rather than gained lawful alignment! ;) ). So that made him not show up for his own execution, I bet. Could anything be done to make this scene make sense even if An'azius is dead by the time of this event?

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 14 October 2009 - 07:02 PM.

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#9 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:01 AM

Finally finished the game!

NO: Why did you kill my friends?
TO: [Truth] I told them they can leave freely, and they attacked me
NO: But why did you kill them?!
TO: Dude, they attacked me, self defense!
NO: *still doesn't get it*
Markus: *tears hair out* This guy has 25 int? really?

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 15 October 2009 - 02:03 AM.

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#10 taplonaplo

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 01:05 PM

you get the 87500XP in the middle ring for disabling the trap as i remember

#11 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 01:54 PM

Hm, I didn't disable it. I must have gotten the exp for triggering it. Wonder if that's intended.
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#12 Qwinn

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 11:45 PM

My last argument about the skulls was not very compelling?


It's a good point that he does deal in copper for other goods, but honestly, there's plenty of money available in the game, and while your argument is certainly reasonable, it still doesn't strike me as something I can consider a fix. As I said, in the future, if I decide to implement a way to get certain spell scrolls previously unavailable to TNO, I will introduce some number of them via Lothar and skulls.

Couldn't find Tek'elach at first. He was obscured by the wall/scenery, so I ran past him like 10 times. Could he be put somewhere in the open where one can actually see him, please?


I believe he is set to random walk. His starting position is plainly visible. He must've just unfortunately gone to a bad spot for you, but he would've walked back eventually.

Bug: choosing to attack a Red Abishai through dialogue did not make the fiend hostile. It should.


Most certainly. I'll fix that. Thanks for the report.

Walking through what I think is the middle ring, I got 87500 exp out of the blue. What is that about? I don't remember it from before, but I could be wrong.


Yes, it's for setting off a trap, and yeah, as far as I can tell, that's intended. I agree it's odd.

- Possibly bad item description
All bodices are described as 5 AC.
Well, currently, Fall-From-Grace wears a 5 AC armor, and a -2 ring, another -2 ring, -2 philactery (I know it's gross, but she's the only one who can make use of it, since I have a mage guard for NO. And it doesn't carry a hit to Charisma, so it must be nobody who sees her minds. wink.gif ), -2 earrings. That would be -3 AC total, right? Yet somehow it's -8.
And when I take off all items except the bodice, her AC instead of being 5 becomes 0. Also when I cast Shield on her, her AC doesn't change. Even though Shield is AC 3 as opposed to the bodice's stated 5.
I don't -mind- the better effective AC at all, of course wink.gif just would like to understand, is there a wrong description on the bodices or just me not getting how AC works.


Yes, one of the bodices' description did not match the AC. Pretty sure that's already fixed for 4.0, but I'll verify. If memory serves, I decided to make the description match the actual AC, since the way it is, one of the bodices is pretty clearly superior, and the better AC on the one evens them up a bit.

Comment/suggestion: the allignment penalty for trying to sell out your companions to the Pillar feels very light. It's kind of a MoralEventHorizon kind of thing for me (Morte's screams are heart-rending tongue.gif) so I feel it should be punished (or rewarded, if that's your inclination) with a more substantial evil shift. At least that's me.

Telling Annah that Pharod earned his fate at the Pillar of Skulls, isn't that a Lawful option? Shouldn't it shift alignment that way?


I have several posts up about alignment hits, and that unless they are clearly and unequivocally bugged, I don't fix them in the Fixpack. I may someday do a mod specifically for adjusting many strange alignment hits in game, and yes, what you're referring to there would be entirely appropriate at that point.


The fiend from Moridor's box: bug?
It seems to save from most spells for zero damage in a way that doesn't fit the descriptions of the spells.
For instance, I have reloaded saves multiple times trying to hit the damned thing with Chain Lightning Storm. It saves every time, even though the spell description says a save results in half damage, so there still should be damage shown.

Same for Stygian Storm. It says 8-64 damage with no saving throw. But I have yet to see the fiend take damage from it despite multiple attempts. All I see is that it made a magic save.

When I try Ball Lightning, it doesn't even bother to show a save (should I be insulted? wink.gif ), just nothing happens.
So, is it a bug? Or is it again my unfamiliarity with D&D? Or is damage applied, but not shown?


They aren't making their save, they have high magic resistance, which completely negates a spell being cast on them.

- Missing execution victim?
In Curst/Carceri, there is an execution going on in the southwest corner that I can stop. There was the judge, executioner, and people watching. Seems the actual victim is missing though.
According to another site, it's supposed to be An'azius. Well, An'azius didn't survive my expedition to Curst Prison *blinks innocently* because, being a responsible citizen, I stopped all those trying to escape the prison (what injustice that I lost rather than gained lawful alignment! wink.gif ). So that made him not show up for his own execution, I bet. Could anything be done to make this scene make sense even if An'azius is dead by the time of this event?


Hmmm. In the vanilla game, the execution was completely bugged if you sent Ani'zius to prison. Both execution victims would approach the judge at the same time and both would play out concurrently, which was a complete mess. I fixed that problem. Now, if Ani'zius is dead, then he's supposed to be replaced by a generic official (who still looks like him, but he isn't named Ani'zius anymore). It's possible that's bugged too, though I didn't think it was, but then again I never killed him before. I'll look into it. Thanks for the reports!

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 15 October 2009 - 11:47 PM.


#13 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:35 AM

It's a good point that he does deal in copper for other goods, but honestly, there's plenty of money available in the game, and while your argument is certainly reasonable, it still doesn't strike me as something I can consider a fix.

Understood. Of course I'm not saying it's a "fix". I was thinking of it as a "tweak", which made sense to me, and of which there are far sillier examples (Leprechaun Annah, hellooo? ;) ). But, ok, I get you, dropping the matter. :)

As I said, in the future, if I decide to implement a way to get certain spell scrolls previously unavailable to TNO, I will introduce some number of them via Lothar and skulls.


I actually kinda like that idea. But will it require inventing new dialogue? I thought you hated doing that.

Re: Tek'elach
OK, thanks. I guess I was just unlucky. It helps that I recently discovered that creatures obscured by the scenery get highlighted when you pause the game. Didn't know that before.

Yes, one of the bodices' description did not match the AC. Pretty sure that's already fixed for 4.0, but I'll verify. If memory serves, I decided to make the description match the actual AC, since the way it is, one of the bodices is pretty clearly superior, and the better AC on the one evens them up a bit.

One of them is superior? Unless there's something I'm not getting, -all- bodices have the same AC. I mean, there are three in the game, right?
- Grace's chastity bodice (comes with it originally)
- the Bodice of the Godless Priestess (bought at tailor)
- the Bodice of the Perilous Quest (bought at tailor)
All those have AC of 5 in the description. But they all give Grace an AC 0 when I remove all rings and the phylactery. Now, at the time of writing my earlier note on this, I didn't take into account that Grace gets a -2 bonus from her 16 Dexterity. That would mean the actual AC of the bodices is... 2?

Hmmm. In the vanilla game, the execution was completely bugged if you sent Ani'zius to prison. Both execution victims would approach the judge at the same time and both would play out concurrently, which was a complete mess. I fixed that problem. Now, if Ani'zius is dead, then he's supposed to be replaced by a generic official (who still looks like him, but he isn't named Ani'zius anymore). It's possible that's bugged too, though I didn't think it was, but then again I never killed him before. I'll look into it. Thanks for the reports!


Ignore that. Happily, I had a Carceri save to reload and looked at it again. There was indeed a nameless official being escorted up by two guards, if I waited a moment, and it played out properly scripted. The reason I was confused was that during my actual playhthrough, by the time he came into view, I had already ran up and resolved the matter with the judge. By the time I saw the official, I thought it was just another person -overseeing- the execution, not the, hm, main attraction himself. ;) My mistake, sorry!

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 19 October 2009 - 09:16 PM.

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#14 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 03:22 AM

Hm, I don't suppose there is some as-yet-unrestored way to let NO learn the Reign of Anger spell?


Mausoleum: the dialogue line "Foul Necromancer! I've come to end your desecration of this place" is currently neither Lawful or Good. Is that intended? I'd have thought it Lawful at the very least...


Re-did the Adyzoel thing. Here's how it went this time:
- talked to Ratbone
- talked to fiends to initiate quest
- talked to Rake-chaser in the day, Adyzoel told me to leave him alone
- [bug] in the night I couldn't initiate dialogue by clicking on Rake-chaser
- so I killed him without dialogue.
(I know you already said you'll be looking at this quest. Just contributing more data.)


Also: could refusing to give the fiends the pendant lead to the XP reward too? ATM you only get exp for handing it over.
The reason I'm suggesting this is that it's a valid quest conclusion. And a valid (in my view, Good) decision to make, to keep a soul-harvesting pendant from evil fiends who could probably use it on other mortals...
(And before you say that the reward for that option is keeping the pendant, which you can sell, and the exp for killing the fiends - both those things are available anyway, if you give over the pendant and then demand it back when the fiends fail to reward you)


From the Fixpack readme:
"Sacrificing Annah in the Fortress will now "count". (SKARDAVNELNATE)"
What's that about? You can sacrifice Annah in the Fortress of Regrets? I can't find such an option... and in what way does it "count"?


Anyway, I finished the playthrough, tested a few things for reproducability and I think I'm more or less done bringing up new points (relieved? ;) ). So again, I thank you, and all other contributors. The mods really improved the already awesome game.

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 17 October 2009 - 03:19 AM.

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#15 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 07:31 PM

OK, I lied, I'm still fiddling with it.

- I can't cast Knock on the locked door in my room in the Civic Festhall. Im pretty sure I remember Annah picking it before, but since this time I told Annah to go f herself as soon as she started throwing hissy fits, I'm reduced to bashing and spells... and it seems I can't cast Knock on the door, at all.
Is it a bug, or is there some logical reason for it?

- Also, shouldn't the NO be able to rest in his own room without "obtaining permission"? (Not a big deal at all, just wondering)

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 17 October 2009 - 07:33 PM.

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#16 -Guest-

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 08:49 PM

Hm, I don't suppose there is some as-yet-unrestored way to let NO learn the Reign of Anger spell?

No, but it's only like one extra point per missile or something. Slot in another Magic Missile if you need.

What's that about? You can sacrifice Annah in the Fortress of Regrets? I can't find such an option... and in what way does it "count"?

There's a counter for how many of the characters get killed in the cutscenes inside the fortress. The one that triggered Annah's death didn't increment that variable before the fixpack. As far as I know, the counter is never used for anything, so it doesn't actually have any effect. There is a legitimate bug in that dialogue, though (it checks the wrong variable, so won't have anything to "say" after the first time it's used) that isn't fixed yet as of fixpack v3.

I can't cast Knock on the locked door in my room in the Civic Festhall. Im pretty sure I remember Annah picking it before, but since this time I told Annah to go f herself as soon as she started throwing hissy fits, I'm reduced to bashing and spells... and it seems I can't cast Knock on the door, at all.

The door is plot-locked (no picking, bashing, or knocking) by default.

Also, shouldn't the NO be able to rest in his own room without "obtaining permission"? (Not a big deal at all, just wondering)

The engine doesn't support this. It'd have to be made to always allow resting; it's not something that can be changed when the game is in progress.

One of them is superior? Unless there's something I'm not getting, -all- bodices have the same AC. I mean, there are three in the game, right?

The bodice of the perilous quest actually sets her base AC to 4 (this is what the unidentified description claims is correct, but you'll never see it in the game). I agree that the AC 5 in the identified description is just a simple mistake (this bodice is just too useless otherwise). Regardless, Grace naturally has insane armor class (AC 2 when naked), so none of the bodices actually affect her armor class (so the perilous quest remains completely useless).

#17 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 10:36 PM

The bodice of the perilous quest actually sets her base AC to 4 (this is what the unidentified description claims is correct, but you'll never see it in the game). I agree that the AC 5 in the identified description is just a simple mistake (this bodice is just too useless otherwise). Regardless, Grace naturally has insane armor class (AC 2 when naked), so none of the bodices actually affect her armor class (so the perilous quest remains completely useless).

Oh, so that AC 2 is not from the bodices? Wow. I thought every humanoid in this setup had a natural AC of 10.
(So you've been able to get Grace naked to check that? *jealous* ;) )


Re: the locked door in my Festhall room
Oh DUH. I did remember right, but I didn't have Deionarra's mod installed back then. *grumble*


[Bug] Just ran into something annoying:
http://www.shsforums...showtopic=42810


Dunno if this sort of a stuff comes into the scope of the fixes, but in case it does, the "Sheer bafflement" sensory stone experience has this sentence:
"You're lying on your shell-less, as it is wholly unprotected, your back..."
Now English isn't my first language, but I gather the repeated "your" is clumsy and unintentional, and should be
"You're lying on your shell-less, as it is wholly unprotected, back..."
(incidentally, this is one of my favorite sensory stones)



- Bug? I can't use the bloody Ancient Scroll unless I move it into someone else's inventory.
Can provide a game save if needed.
EDIT: ok this is more general, I can't talk to my Lim-Lim or use the dodecahedron either. No idea what caused this... reloading the game doesn't help, either.
I reloaded an earlier save and went through the same actions as before, this time didn't get the bug. Very confusing...


- Can't get Dak'kon to cast Knock on the locked drawers in the NW corner of the middle Curst Administration level (top of the screen basically). He tries to run towards it instead. I've used him to successfully open other locked doors so this looks buggy.


- Now that you've strengthened the locks on things, the Knock spell seem very weak. I cast multiple ones on one lock with no effect.

Edited by Markus Ramikin, 19 October 2009 - 09:19 PM.

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#18 Markus Ramikin

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:36 AM

Bug: when you approach Dhall, Morte is supposed to automatically initiate dialogue by commenting about the log book.
However, if you previously exited a dialogue with a female zombie, but Morte didn't speak out a flirt line, that flirt line will replace the logbook dialogue, making it unavailable.
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#19 Qwinn

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:45 PM

Phew, glad I read through this thread again before release, almost forgot about it and there are a few small fixes here I did want to implement.

I ended up using the first three, not the GUI thing though because my monitor kinda hates all the resolutions you support (well I hate them too). Wish there was a 1024x768 option.


Hopefully you've noticed by now that Ghostdog has taken care of this problem, as his next release supports all resolutions. Yay Ghostdog!

Dunno if this sort of a stuff comes into the scope of the fixes, but in case it does, the "Sheer bafflement" sensory stone experience has this sentence:
"You're lying on your shell-less, as it is wholly unprotected, your back..."
Now English isn't my first language, but I gather the repeated "your" is clumsy and unintentional, and should be
"You're lying on your shell-less, as it is wholly unprotected, back..."


I agree, and it is fixed in the dialogue fix component.

Bug: choosing to attack a Red Abishai through dialogue did not make the fiend hostile. It should.


Fixed. (It already made -you- attack -him-, odd that that wouldn't make him hostile, maybe it only has you attack once and you missed? Well, whatever, he'll aggro for sure now).

The bodice of the perilous quest actually sets her base AC to 4 (this is what the unidentified description claims is correct, but you'll never see it in the game). I agree that the AC 5 in the identified description is just a simple mistake (this bodice is just too useless otherwise). Regardless, Grace naturally has insane armor class (AC 2 when naked), so none of the bodices actually affect her armor class (so the perilous quest remains completely useless).


Ewww. I didn't realize this. And yes, it's true, looking at her CRE file, she has a "Natural AC" of 2. Guess that makes all the fixes on the bodice I did pointless. Oh well. I wonder if the AC sources were meant to stack? In theory I would think they should... no matter how hard her skin is, another layer of armor should provide additional protection, I'd think. Anyone know the 2nd edition rule on how natural and regular armor is supposed to stack? If 2nd edition says they should stack, I'd consider that sufficient to make them do so as a fix, given how silly the actual implementation is.

There's a counter for how many of the characters get killed in the cutscenes inside the fortress. The one that triggered Annah's death didn't increment that variable before the fixpack. As far as I know, the counter is never used for anything, so it doesn't actually have any effect. There is a legitimate bug in that dialogue, though (it checks the wrong variable, so won't have anything to "say" after the first time it's used) that isn't fixed yet as of fixpack v3.


I've mentioned this elsewhere, but no harm in repeating it: the counter DID have an effect, it determined how many times TNO would resurrect in the Fortress. However, it -added- to them instead of subtracted. This meant that unless you went to the Fortress alone, you'd get so many resurrections that you'd actually have to try to run out. If you go in with a full party, you get 6. Then as each companion died, you'd get another free rez. I determined, and confirmed, that this is a bug - the dying should subtract an available resurrection, not add one. So, in version 4.0 onward, the Fortress does become a significantly more dangerous place... dying there, with few if any living creatures able to take your place, was not meant to be trivial and conflicts directly with the lore of the game.


I'll do what I can to fix the issues with the Pendant of Yemeth quest on this run through, but as I've said elsewhere, I have limited time for testing this time around, and I suspect testing this could use up -all- my allotted time, sigh. I am not, however, looking at adding any alternate endings to the quest at this time or for this release. I have what I think are some great ideas for a future expanded POY quest, but I don't have time for this release.

Bug: when you approach Dhall, Morte is supposed to automatically initiate dialogue by commenting about the log book.
However, if you previously exited a dialogue with a female zombie, but Morte didn't speak out a flirt line, that flirt line will replace the logbook dialogue, making it unavailable.


EDIT: Never mind, figured it out, simply a state weight issue. Fixed.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 23 December 2009 - 10:55 PM.


#20 Qwinn

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:16 PM

Okay, I've reviewed Adyzoel's dialogue. I did find one bug - if you first meet him with Annah in your party, the "I've talked to Adyzoel once" variable wasn't getting set, and every time you talked to him you'd get a repeat of the same conversation, but some of the other issues you noted appear intentional.

What's actually buggy about it though is that despite never getting the quest, when I eventually talked to the Rake-person my dialogue options looked like I was on a mission to assassinate him. Essentially I said something more or less like "I'm here to kill you", even though TNO had no reason to do that at that point. So in short, the behaviour of those mobs when the quest is -not- triggered may need looking at.


I can't find anything along the lines of "I'm here to kill you.". However, if you lack sufficient charisma (15+), then yes, you are almost certain to get into a fight with him. The dialogue indicates that the Rake Chaser is pretty much forcing this confrontation, for reasons that become apparent if you continue with the quest. If you have 15+ charisma, however, you can avoid a fight and even have him answer some questions. Note, though, that even with high charisma if you pester him enough times, he'll warn you to leave him alone and if you persist, it will eventually lead to a fight.

Additional: You can actually ask him questions without a high charisma. The first time you talk to him, try to ask him questions, and when he waves you away, don't provoke him further, just leave. Then talk to him again, and he'll be more willing to answer them on the second attempt. Prior to version 4.0, this wouldn't help if you already had Annah in your party, you'd just get a repeat of the initial conversation, but it will work properly in 4.0.

Qwinn

Edited by Qwinn, 23 December 2009 - 10:21 PM.




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