18 replies to this topic

[minotaur_in_maze]

I was just looking some things over and noticed something I have been wondering about for quiate awhile.

Why is it there are virtually no mods for Throne of Bhall? I mean, there are fixpacks and tactical challenges, and a couple of other nuts and bolts mods - but there are no NPCs Just for ToB, nor any real added quest packs (other than a couple that come With modded NPCs - THOSE NPCs that were originally in SOA.)

I am just wondering why? Other than the number modifier behind anything ToB related, why do people not make NPCs/Quests major add ons for ToB - a game that, when ya get right down to it, might be in more NEED of such things than SoA.

Is there some kind of major headache involved in modding for ToB?

Thanks.

Minotaur In maze

[Daulmakan]

Sarevok Romance
Iylos
Wheels of Prophecy

[-JR-]

From what I've heard, it has a lot to do with the size of the game. There's a smaller number of events, interactions, quests, etc, so in comparison, everything added by a mod seems bigger than it would in Shadows of Amn. Shorter mods are often innately less appealing than larger ones (though it naturally plateaus at a certain size), so people have less incentive to make or download them.

On a semi-related note, the Bioware romances remedied the timer-based difficulties caused by the aforementioned problem with their use of primarily event-based lovetalk checks, but I could see how it would be kind of a pain for people more used to traditional NPC mods to convert to exclusively environment-oriented thinking.

I can see your point though, unless you look at each mod or mod grouping as a stand-alone project, SoA gets pretty crowded in no time, something I'm running up against right now in both the expansion mod and fanfiction I'm writing.

[Solar's Harper]

There are a number of mods in the specifically for TOB in the works elsewhere on the line, if you mean released mods however that's where there's a bit of a snag.
Length and more importantly execution is indeed a factor between the two, TOB itself starts with very little room to manoeuvre without tweaking with the storyline, and even then there is little room to expand whilst maintaining the guise of a all-out war between the Bhaalspawn (something which the expansion itself fails to deliver in sufficient quantity) and addressing the various sub-factors at the same time.

Invariably it comes down to two things, quality and quantity. TOB can provide quantity - at the expense of quality.
The opposite however is harder to achieve *without* adjusting the story to the modder's whim, but not impossible. That said such a change aren't always undesirable for new experiences, just an extra large haystack of work comes attached to it.

[Eric P.]

The comments in this thread suggest to me that the ideal mods for the ToB portion of the game might be partial or total conversions. Would this make sense? Would it be a feasible endeavor?

Just a thought
- Eric

[Solar's Harper]

Feasible certainly, although massive even by small terms.

[Almateria]

Sarevok Romance
Iylos
Wheels of Prophecy

And The Longer Road. And Er'vonyrah, which non-polish people will hever have, haha. ^^
Anyway, I personally think it's because ToB is boring. And the plotline is worse than in Diablo, so anything actually good would stand out. And that's why it's better to stop playing after killing Irenicus in Hell and go read some fanfiction.

[Eric P.]

Sarevok Romance
Iylos
Wheels of Prophecy

And The Longer Road. And Er'vonyrah, which non-polish people will hever have, haha. ^^
Anyway, I personally think it's because ToB is boring. And the plotline is worse than in Diablo, so anything actually good would stand out. And that's why it's better to stop playing after killing Irenicus in Hell and go read some fanfiction.

It's sad irony how disappointing ToB is, as a follow-up to SoA. Did the design team run out of time, or something? Way too linear, but still I feel it necessary to play all the way through to complete the story of the game as a whole. Some mods that would expand the ToB portion would be refreshing!

Happy modding,
Eric

[Ipsissimus]

Return to Windspear was supposed to be a ToB mod, but the original project has been abandoned. Apparently, it's going to be absorbed into another project, but I don't know what that would be. There's a mod in development at Chosen of Mystra, Throne of Bhaal Revisited, that makes ToB less linear--there's a playable beta, in fact. Plus there's Ascension, Redemption (as an alternative to Longer Road), the Sarevok and Laran components of Romantic Encounters, and one of the Quest Pack components.

ToB really is a hack'n'slash fest and not much else. I recall reading something from David Gaider, about how expansions have to be finished while people are still playing the original. So they were on a very tight schedule to finish it. About the only things that stood out for me were Saradush, the Throne of Blood, and Cespenar.

Edited by Ipsissimus, 30 March 2010 - 09:30 AM.

[minotaur_in_maze]

Sarevok Romance
Iylos
Wheels of Prophecy

And The Longer Road. And Er'vonyrah, which non-polish people will hever have, haha. ^^
Anyway, I personally think it's because ToB is boring. And the plotline is worse than in Diablo, so anything actually good would stand out. And that's why it's better to stop playing after killing Irenicus in Hell and go read some fanfiction.

Give me your address and I will be HAPPY to send you the Novelization of Baldur's Gate II (I will even Pay you to take the thing outa my bookshelf...but I regress)

You've made my point exactly here. SoA is a great paced, well written and very involved type of game. ToB isn't bad...exactly...but it hasa lot less content and the game play is more of a straightaway with very little chance for side quests.

With that in mind, I would think folks would line up to add additional content to ToB. It was mentioned that in the course of the game, with the Bhallspawn troubles coming to a head it might be difficult, but I don't see it that way.

Even a mod that adds side quests (and thanks for the info - I knew about Saravok, but the other two... ) would be well received.

Hmmmm.

MiM

[Miloch]

Aurora's Shoes adds some minor side-quests to ToB but only in connection with a random factor. Meaning, depending on a die being rolled (figuratively, during mod install) it will put some content in ToB, otherwise it's in SoA. Sometimes it's in both. If you don't have ToB, it's all in SoA. Conversely, it does the same thing for BG1's add-on TotSC if you have it. The goal is both to make your game different every time you play the mod, and also to convince you to play the add-ons if you otherwise would not. (And incidentally, I wouldn't recommend looking at the code because you might soon realise an insane person must've written it ).

But modding ToB is just the same as modding SoA. Even easier than if you *don't* have ToB because the ToB engine added a whole lot more mod-friendly stuff (the same way modding BG1 is so much harder than modding BG2). Other than that, I think it's just a popularity thing - so many more folks play SoA. Again, the same way it's more popular than BG1, even what with BGT/Tutu converting the latter to the BG2 engine, though IMO BG1 is better (the content, not the engine). But yeah, modding shouldn't be about popularity - quite the reverse, really. SoA definitely doesn't need more NPC mods, but ToB could use it.

[Almateria]

Give me your address and I will be HAPPY to send you the Novelization of Baldur's Gate II (I will even Pay you to take the thing outa my bookshelf...but I regress)

I already have it. ^^ It's incredible. And bad, mostly bad. I had no idea one could butcher a game like this. But the ToB one wasn't as awful as the rest of them, and I actually prefer reading it, than playing the game.
[/offtopic]

[Eric P.]

Give me your address and I will be HAPPY to send you the Novelization of Baldur's Gate II (I will even Pay you to take the thing outa my bookshelf...but I regress)

I already have it. ^^ It's incredible. And bad, mostly bad. I had no idea one could butcher a game like this. But the ToB one wasn't as awful as the rest of them, and I actually prefer reading it, than playing the game.
[/offtopic]

How closely does the novel resemble the game? What kind of character is the protagonist?

- E

[-JR-]

If you're referring to the official novels, they don't resemble the game too much outside the general plot outline. They have many of the same characters, though their roles and personalities are grossly distorted (I recall Montaron and Xzar being agents of Sarevok, Khalid abusing Jaheira, Bodhi being a sort of tragic hero, Imoen having a sexual affair with Phaere in Ust Natha, etc). I've said before that it seems that the authors haphazzardly played through the games once, (maybe while drunk or something) then wrote the books a year later.

The main character was a somewhat unintelligent, animalistic fighter who nonetheless is essentially unkillable due to his ability to regenerate any sort of injury within seconds. I remember reading somewhere, Wikipedia perhaps, that "he is widely regarded as a cruel and unlikable protagonist," and I strongly agree. He's good friends with Montaron, cheats on Jaheira with Bodhi, murders a commoner in the Friendly Arm Inn because he's in a bad mood, and in general, treats people like crap.

[Almateria]

And he is like Shepard, has sex with anyone. Even with dead people. Truth.

[Ipsissimus]

The true nature of Abdel Adrian

The novel resembles the game in the sense that Chinchilla is a cute, fuzzy little bunny. Reactions seem to range from shock, outrage, and disgust to hate and and a strong desire to kill the protagonist. Slowly. Jaheira is *not* a damsel in distress, and the only character who's allowed to scream about spiders is Gavin. Actually, I've heard that there was some pretty bad stuff in ToB as well--namely, Imoen getting together with Melissan. There's a name for that. It's called "slash," and it isn't pretty. Abdel Adrian is also a total Gary-Stu--running him through this test, he scored 58, when 50+ is the "Kill it dead, we've got a Sue/Stu" range.

[Almateria]

I want to correct two things. ^^
One, Khalid was not a wife-beater in the book. Abdel was, and Jaheira passed the blame on Khalid.
Two, Imoen wasn't a victim of slashfiction in ToB as much as in SoA, where she had sex with Phaere. In ToB it was only stated that Melissana fascinated her, and that's all. ^^
Also, the fight with Balthazar was awesome. Would be even better, if it wasn't the... fourth time Abdel was nearly killed, but still. And it added a bit of post-resurrection Character Development for Sarevok. And he even was described better, I mean, if I think about Sarevok, I don't see a bald guy with a bald head, but this giant man in seemingly-empty suit of armor. And Karpyshyn delivers.

It's not like I don't hate the previous two books, though. Athans' best scene was the opening of the first book, and that was hilariously bad written. After that, it's only the stupid.

[Eric P.]

Thanks to all who responded. I will absolutely never read any of the books, after reading these critiques Fortunately, we all write a new story/series each time we play through the games.

Happy modding/playing,
Eric