19 replies to this topic

[Cykuta]

It's an idea I've been toying with for a long time. I'm writing his npc banters whenever i'm in the mood, even though i have no idea whatsoever on how do you make anything happen in the game. Like, make an npc appear, for instance. But this guy has been sneaking around my brain for so long i just have to let him out.

So, would anyone be interested in playing something as redundant as this? I'm not asking for help with creating a mod - i know everybody has tons of their own work. But i'd like to know if there would be any interest in him. He's a human male assassin, and if he happens at all, he'll join the party as part of a quest. The player will then choose if he stays or not.

Gabriel De Lorne.

When asked about his past, Gabriel replies with a polite, neutral and quite uninformative selection of facts. He says he was born into a noble athkatlan family some thirty years ago, and his upbringing was heavy on swordsmanship, foreign languages and literature. He does not command the family wealth, making a living with his skills instead, altough he does mention he was an only child. He doesn't elaborate the subject, however. He states that this life suited him well - maybe too well, even - and claims having agreed to work with you to seek out new challenges.


I'd like this npc to be a very polite, level-headed and well educated assassin, either lawful neutral or lawful evil. Here are some exemplary party banters :

with Yoshimo


Y : You intrigue me, Gabriel. Especially on professional ground.

G : What exactly do you mean?

Y : I've spent several months in Athkatla, and found the execution of my trade very hard. The Shadow Thieves guard their territory jealously, even in times of the guild war.

G : I see. Well, I have spent almost all my life in Athkatla, and have some connections that you obviously lack. That, caution and skill keep the Shadow Thieves away.

Y : But still, dodging them and fending them off must be difficult. Wouldn't it be better to join them and stop worrying about it?

G : Since you have not joined yourself, I should think you understood my choice perfectly.

Y : Ah, logic. But I haven't planned to settle here, I was only passing through.

G : Very good point. I do not intend to associate myself with the Shadow Thieves, because that would limit my possibilities. As it is, I am often getting commissions from clients that, for one reason or another, prefer to avoid the Shadow Thieves.

Y : Because they are members themselves, or because the targets are?

G : Possibly. And of course, it is unreasonable to share the income with the guild, when you owe it to your skills only. Should the guild provide some effective help, I might consider joining, but as it is, the profit is solely on their side.

with Keldorn :


G : You are constantly on your guard around me, Sir Firecam.

K : I'm watching you, yes.

G : For what reason?

K : Your profession, young man. For enough gold, you are ready to execute someone purely because of a word from another.

G : Just as you, sir, are ready to execute on the word of your superior. We are not as different as you would like us to be.

K : The duty of a paladin is to protect the innocent and to punish the guilty. This means we do use violence, but only as a last resort, mainly against vile monsters such as orcs or the undead.

G : And yet, the most atrocious monsters invariably turn out to be people.

K : Indeed.

G : I'm surprised. I did not think you would agree with an assassin, sir Firecam.

K : Didn't you? It's foolish to argue with the truth, and unjust to deny someone the right to know it. The Order is supposed to stand for wisdom and justice, and I try my best to meet its requirements.


Does that even make sense? Let alone interest anyone? I'd vaule the SHS criticism, since you guys are all BG connoisseurs

[Ipsissimus]

Hmm, it certainly could be interesting. It does make sense, though, and I particularly like that Keldorn banter One thing I've noticed with some mod NPCs is that they always get the better of the Bioware crew. But I think that you'd have to be careful to avoid cliches/overused ideas. I like the character concept, too. Makes me wonder why he actually became an assassin. Infamy? Gold? I think the idea could use a bit more development, but IMO you have a strong start already.

[-JR-]

I like the idea a lot. An assassin who isn't complete slime, who is intelligent but doesn't seem to be in danger of out-clevering the other NPCs the way Ipsissimus warned about. Overall it's a very solid idea. I'm always interested in seeing more human characters, what with the game and mods' vague failings to hold true to the "human majority" concept of the Forgotten Realms when it comes to NPCs.

[Yovaneth]

Makes me wonder why he actually became an assassin.

Because he's a socio/psychopath. As simple as that - many socio/psychopaths are very polite. You find them in everyday life at the top of any big company's management tree.

-Y-

[Eric P.]

Makes me wonder why he actually became an assassin.

Because he's a socio/psychopath. As simple as that - many socio/psychopaths are very polite. You find them in everyday life at the top of any big company's management tree.

-Y-

Oh, we're not...er, I mean *they're* not always at the top. Uh, never mind

[Eric P.]

The Gabriel concept looks promising, so I hope it'll go into full production before long. There are plenty of generous and helpful modders around here; I appeal to some of 'em for assistance with the mod I'm currently writing, so learning how and why things work won't be too challenging

Best of luck!
Eric

[smoky tune]

Your ideas are good, but would you please make him not as useless as all the other assasins. Noone of existing mod assasins have stayed in my party for longer than two days. They just die too fast and I can't find any reason to resurrect them. "Worthless monkeys"

[Ipsissimus]

Your ideas are good, but would you please make him not as useless as all the other assasins. Noone of existing mod assasins have stayed in my party for longer than two days. They just die too fast and I can't find any reason to resurrect them.

What "other assassins?" Plus, single-class thieves of any kind aren't really suited for open combat. They're better as ranged characters or backstabbers. That and as a rule of thumb it's better for a mod NPC to be underpowered than too powerful. Besides, this guy sounds like he should be worth resurrecting, at least

[Kulyok]

I think there's good writing here and an interesting story(there _is_ a story about his family somewhere in there, right)? I liked both banters - Keldorn's one was indeed a little predictable, but there's not a lot that an assassin and a paladin can say to each other.

Assassins are quite weak in game, though, I'd second that. Just like bards. For example, Keto is a great character(if lacking ToB content), but I can't work with her in party - her class makes her useless for me. (Yes, yes, with micromanagement you can make these classes work, but I hate micromanagement - I'm more of an "open combat + Dragon's Breath" kind of player, and I suspect I'm not the only one). So, I'd try an alternate class component(dual-class fighter/thief works wonders, for one).

I've only one question: where does this character's story go? I mean, every BG2 character we love develops somewhat. Jaheira deals with her Harper crisis; Aerie overcomes her loss of wings; Nalia becomes a strong person who uses her powers to protect people; Yoshimo... well, dies; Keldorn either becomes a harder, harsher person or decides to stay with his family; Anomen either serves the Order or chooses freedom - and so on. Multiple paths are not necessary - in fact, I rather prefer a single path(it makes the character more wholesome, realistic to me), but nevertheless, I believe that each character has to go through a crisis, a choice. Will there be a crisis for this character?

[Cykuta]

There definitely is a family story and an explanation to his career choices complete with a side quest. I plan a romance, too And some npcs would have more banters than others - athkatlan nobility, for example. I don't know yet how to get the crisis to apply to both genders, as i had some ideas that would suit a romance best. But he's been politely waiting in my head for ages

[Zyraen]

I think its a nice idea

Personally I think there's a market for the class too since the other 2 Assassin mods aren't that well played / known I think, and you might want to take care that he gets good rolls for his health and maybe put on a lil +2 sword that gives maybe +1 backstab bonus (though that might be overpowered depending on when he joins the party).

The conversations looks interesting, and I never expected Keldorn to agree with him

Not sure about the Crisis though.
Do buzz me if you need any (consultative) help or just a (spare) brain to bounce ideas off.

[smoky tune]

What "other assassins?"

Vanim and Silverstar namely. I don't take Xulaue into account as she is accessible only in underdark and all the more dualled to a mage.
The first thing I definitely dislike about them is too low HP. Vanim has 38 hp at lvl 11 (at which he joins). Having no HD roll penalty (12 con) and considering rogues get 10d6+2 hit points by lvl 11, his hp is a little greater than a half of a maximum of 62 hp. By level 20 he'd have 38+2*9=56 hp - that's too little to survive a single horrid wilting. Of course that is not an irresoluble problem (drinking potion of fortitude would grant additional 40 hp, if I'm not mistaken), but that makes a weak link in a party chain. Silverstar has a somewhat better picture. She has the same 38 hp when she joins, but she is only lvl 8 and suffers -1 HD penalty for low con of 7. As for the other stats, they are acceptable: medium strength and high dex are normal for thieves.
The second thing I don't like them for is their thieving abilities distribution.
An elven assassin with 19 dex (as Star is) gets initial:
PP OL FT MS HS DI ST
35_25_15_30_30_10_10
with 145 spare scores to distribute on lvl 8. Silverstar's choice is:
PP OL FT MS HS DI ST
25_0__0__45_40_-10_40 >> distributed points with a sum of 145
60_25_15_75_70__0_50 >> final value
So what do we have here?
HS and MS are essential for assassins, that's ok.
No points in OL and TD, which means we need another thief in a party.
Pickpocketing and trapsetting seems to be her speciality. But for reasonable pickpocketing one needs at least 140 points in it (judging by my own experience). Using multiple potions of thievery is a cheat IMO, and is rightfully fixed in RR, for example. So we need to raise it up for 4 levels to 120, add 20 from gloves. Revised potion of thievery grants only +8 to skills on levels 10-12. Another 3 levels we should spent points on trapsetting to be succesful most of times.
In my humble opinion OL, FT and HS are the most important skills for any thief, so they should be maxed first, and after that we can spent ability points elsewhere. At least that makes an excuse for their weakness in combat and makes them useful for a party.
The only saving grace for Silverstar is her well-enchanted blade which lets her successfully hit her target when attempting a backstab.
Vanim's skills selection is different:
PP OL FT MS HS DI ST
35_25_50_85_90_30_5
He can become experienced in trap finding/disarming soon enough, but lockpicking is definitely not his strong point anyway. This makes him some more useful as a thief because locks can be forced by strenth or knocked by magic while traps are only to be set off or triggered. But his hp spoils the picture irreversably.
In conclusion let's have a look at Yoshimo (as he is the only plain thief):
Good primary stats (str 17, dex 18, con 16) make him a decent fighter who can survive long enough even if attacked by fighter. Perfect trapfinding, good enough lockpicking, sufficient stealth and silent move, not to mention his cheating traps (but he's a bountyhunter, isn't he?). All of that makes him much more preferrable than those "worthless monkeys", as Edwin would say.

That and as a rule of thumb it's better for a mod NPC to be underpowered than too powerful.

Sure, while Miriam Delsol is awful for being too overpowered, but this couple is the same awful for an opposite reason.

[Cykuta]

Um, can you please not engage in a huge assassin-class-evaluation here? I'm not even sure what his class would be - he'd be an assassin by profession in-game, but as to his class i'd probably go for player's choice like Kulyok suggested.

[Kaeloree]

Cykuta, smoky tune is just trying to be helpful. There's no need to be so dismissive, especially as his/her advice is well-worth keeping in mind when you do his statistics.

[Cykuta]

If course. I'm sorry if this seemed harsh. And by 'you' I meant a general 'you guys', not anyone in particular. But actually I already made up my mind that the class would be optional, because there are so many styles of playing this game. Gabriel would be an assassin in the roleplaying sense of the word - a person who assassinates for money.

Again, sorry if I was impolite. No dismission was meant.

[Gabrielle]

Like the name.

[smoky tune]

Cykuta, smoky tune is just trying to be helpful.

That's true indeed.
But you may even take no notice of me as I am... very strict or even captious when it concerns my party members or game balance at large. Sometimes I can be biased when a character doesn't suit my personal playstyle. Thus of all mod npc's I've tried by now there's the only one I've really enjoyed and who have stayed in my party for the whole game.
At the same time I like almost all the Bioware npc's and try to make as much use of them as possible.
Make you character the way you see him and the one you'll like. Cheers!

[Zyraen]

@smokytune
One habit that I do when I use mod NPCs is to use Shadowkeeper and change their stats, classes, or at the very least, Proficiencies lol so it suits my playstyle.
Sacrilege, I know, but it works like a charm.