40 replies to this topic

[Eric P.]

Mielikki, the Lady of the Forest, the Supreme Ranger, has rangers as her specialty priests. They are called Needles, and have the following changes from standard rangers (information is from PnP material):

REQUIREMENTS: Strength 13, Dexterity 13, Constitution 14, Wisdom 14
PRIME REQ.: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom
ALIGNMENT: LG, NG, CG
WEAPONS: Any
ARMOR: Any (penalties to some special abilities accrue if wearing heavier armor than studded leather)
MINOR SPHERES: Animal, plant, time, travelers
MAGICAL ITEMS: Same as ranger

The printed material includes the following spells accessible by Needles (might be from a Third Edition source):

Animal Domain Spells
1st level 
Calm Animals
2nd level 
Hold Animal
3rd level 
Dominate Animal
4th level 
Repel Vermin
5th level 
Commune with Nature
6th level 
Antilife Shell
7th level 
Animal Shapes
8th level 
Creeping Doom
9th level 
Shapechange

Plant Domain Spells
1st level 
Entangle
2nd level 
Barkskin
3rd level 
Plant Growth
4th level 
Control Plants
5th level 
Wall of Thorns
6th level 
Repel Wood
7th level 
Changestaff
8th level 
Command Plants
9th level 
Shambler

Good Domain Spells
1st level 
Protection from Evil
2nd level 
Aid
3rd level 
Magic Circle against Evil
4th level 
Holy Smite
5th level 
Dispel Evil
6th level 
Blade Barrier
7th level 
Holy Word
8th level 
Holy Aura
9th level 
Summon Monster IX - Good only.

Some of these spells don't exist in BGII, but those could be ignored or replaced with something similar (or similarly themed). As BGII priest spells go up to 7th level only, the higher level spells listed above could be made into HLAs, innates, or ignored.

I'm interested in knowing 1) could this information be used to create a kit, and 2) would it be worthwhile to do it? If the resulting kit would be too weak, compared to other kits (esp. priest kits), more specials could be added. Having such a kit would be ideal for the joinable mod NPC I'm currently developing, but I don't feel ready to attempt writing a kit, myself I'd also like to know if these things could be represented without having to create a kit, but some players might want their rangers to also be Needles.

[Phobia]

I don't know if this Priest kit could use all weapons...could it? Why not make it a ranger kit instead?

[Eric P.]

I don't know if this Priest kit could use all weapons...could it? Why not make it a ranger kit instead?

It *is* a ranger kit, as only rangers and druids are Mielikki's specialty priests. Maybe a bit confusing at first

- E

[berelinde]

Saying that they're priests is probably the confusing part. I can see how druids could be considered priests, but not necessarily rangers.

You've got some challenges ahead of you, balancing this kit, but once you're done, it could be very interesting.

[Eric P.]

Saying that they're priests is probably the confusing part. I can see how druids could be considered priests, but not necessarily rangers.

You've got some challenges ahead of you, balancing this kit, but once you're done, it could be very interesting.

To quote Han Solo, "It's not my fault" Canon states that Mielikki's specialty priests are rangers, so in that respect (as well as living on a Prime world), she stands out among Faerunian deities. Being the Supreme Ranger, and having many ranger worshippers, it's a natural fit, so it would be ideal to implement this in the game. My own NPC operates as a kind of warrior-priestess in the Lady's service, so if this idea is ever realized, I'll want to add it to my mod, and I see no reason why the kit shouldn't be made available to anyone who'd like to give it to a ranger (the druidic version is somewhat different, if memory serves). In any case, a kit appears to be the most appropriate way to handle this. It should be fairly easy to put together, since there's not that much to it...but at this point, I'm reluctant to dive into it myself *LOL* This has been nagging at me for years, though, so if no one else feels like doing this, I'll bite the bullet...

Thanks,
Eric

[berelinde]

Balance is really the tough part here. In a PnP setting, things like stat restrictions are actual drawbacks because you can't play a class or kit you want unless you roll a character with appropriately godlike stats. A CRPG is different. There, the computer will consider the class minimums as your base roll, so *everything* will meet or exceed the minimum. So PnP balances don't work here.

Clerics (and druids, but to a lesser extent) balance their spellcasting ability with an extremely limited range of weapons they can use and some not-so-hot combat tables. Rangers, on the other hand, can use any weapon in the game, use the fighter combat tables, and get moderate stealth abilities and minor spell use on top of that. If you were to add in a cleric's spell tables, that would just be too much.

Some people consider cleric/ranger dual- or multi-classes the ultimate powergaming class already, despite their limited armor and weapon selection and slower spell progression. Allowing them to use any weapons or armor in the game and giving them single-class level advancement is not going to help game balance.

If you gave them *only* the spells on those lists and disabled all other cleric/druid spells, that would help a lot, but that's going to take some serious spell and kit modding.

As you already admitted, you're basing your character off a 3E source. There are checks and balances in 3E that 2E just plain lacks.

As usual, I'm not saying this to discourage you. I'm only asking you to think about the kind of mod you really want to write.

[Eric P.]

Balance is really the tough part here. In a PnP setting, things like stat restrictions are actual drawbacks because you can't play a class or kit you want unless you roll a character with appropriately godlike stats. A CRPG is different. There, the computer will consider the class minimums as your base roll, so *everything* will meet or exceed the minimum. So PnP balances don't work here.

Clerics (and druids, but to a lesser extent) balance their spellcasting ability with an extremely limited range of weapons they can use and some not-so-hot combat tables. Rangers, on the other hand, can use any weapon in the game, use the fighter combat tables, and get moderate stealth abilities and minor spell use on top of that. If you were to add in a cleric's spell tables, that would just be too much.

Some people consider cleric/ranger dual- or multi-classes the ultimate powergaming class already, despite their limited armor and weapon selection and slower spell progression. Allowing them to use any weapons or armor in the game and giving them single-class level advancement is not going to help game balance.

If you gave them *only* the spells on those lists and disabled all other cleric/druid spells, that would help a lot, but that's going to take some serious spell and kit modding.

As you already admitted, you're basing your character off a 3E source. There are checks and balances in 3E that 2E just plain lacks.

As usual, I'm not saying this to discourage you. I'm only asking you to think about the kind of mod you really want to write.

Yes, it's a mix of 2E and 3E sources. "Spheres" is a dead give-away, as that's a 2E concept. 3E replaced that with Domains. You touched on an interesting point: because deities grant their faithful servants access to divine spells, it might be best to limit the kit's spell list to what I listed earlier. I keep thinking that a kit of this nature would lack sufficient bang for the buck, that players might not consider it worthwhile to take. I'm not sure what should be added, though, if that's the case. Something needs to be included that captures the theme of a follower of Mielikki.

I'm considering the alternate approach of "simply" using COPY_EXISTING for the desired spells that are currently inaccessible to a ranger. At least, that would be one way of distinguishing my NPC from any other ranger.

Thanks!
Eric

Edited by Eric P., 10 June 2010 - 07:07 PM.

[vilkacis]

Okay, so. It seems to me that the only difference between a normal ranger and a ranger-specialty priest of Mielikki is the spell selection. Normally, rangers only have access to the plant and animal spheres, but a Needle adds time and travelers to that. It doeedn't seem like they gain any extra spell slots, higher spell levels or other major advantages.

However, BG2 doesn't follow the rules, and IIRC rangers have access to all druid spells from lv1-3. This means a character with only animal/plant/time/travelers access probably end up with a less useful spell selection than the basic ranger's unless you can dig up a couple of really awesome time or traveler sphere spells.

Flavour-wise, it works, but doesn't really stick out from a normal ranger.

Gameplay-wise, the Stalker still pretty much reigns supreme.

[Eric P.]

Okay, so. It seems to me that the only difference between a normal ranger and a ranger-specialty priest of Mielikki is the spell selection. Normally, rangers only have access to the plant and animal spheres, but a Needle adds time and travelers to that. It doeedn't seem like they gain any extra spell slots, higher spell levels or other major advantages.

However, BG2 doesn't follow the rules, and IIRC rangers have access to all druid spells from lv1-3. This means a character with only animal/plant/time/travelers access probably end up with a less useful spell selection than the basic ranger's unless you can dig up a couple of really awesome time or traveler sphere spells.

Flavour-wise, it works, but doesn't really stick out from a normal ranger.

Gameplay-wise, the Stalker still pretty much reigns supreme.

Perhaps this would sweeten the deal: the kit grants the character a higher bonus against favored enemies, or (if possible to arrange) allows for more than one favored enemy, which would be selectable at a particular ranger level, from a limited list, and which bonus would always be less than the first favored enemy bonus. Is any of that feasible? Would any or all of it be reasonable added benefits?

- E

Edited by Eric P., 10 June 2010 - 08:57 PM.

[Chevalier]

I have not been playing ranger PC's, but have had many rangers in my party. A reason to pick a NPC ranger with a kit would be one that would be priest with a bow or a ranger with some (or many) priest spells. To balance this you might limit the type of Armor he can wear.

[Phobia]

Okay, so I misread.

Okay, so. It seems to me that the only difference between a normal ranger and a ranger-specialty priest of Mielikki is the spell selection. Normally, rangers only have access to the plant and animal spheres, but a Needle adds time and travelers to that. It doeedn't seem like they gain any extra spell slots, higher spell levels or other major advantages.

However, BG2 doesn't follow the rules, and IIRC rangers have access to all druid spells from lv1-3. This means a character with only animal/plant/time/travelers access probably end up with a less useful spell selection than the basic ranger's unless you can dig up a couple of really awesome time or traveler sphere spells.

Flavour-wise, it works, but doesn't really stick out from a normal ranger.

Gameplay-wise, the Stalker still pretty much reigns supreme.

And I agree with this. I don't know if an armour restriction is going to balance the usage of all those cleric spells, though.

[Zyraen]

At a glance, it doesn't seem that unbalancing because you've got mainly got spells from Clerics / Druids in that list (except for level 9 Mage spell Shapechange, but that could just be a Druid shapechange as well). However, then I realise that these are Rangers, not Druids.

So you'll either end up with spells that you will never get (since Rangers never have more than level 3 Cleric spells if I recall right, unless you're using Zy's Misc Mods), OR you end up with special abilities that rival those of Druids, since Creeping Doom is pretty much IT, except of course for Nature's Beauty.

At the risk of simply being weird, I'll propose that the Kit be applied to Ranger / Druids only. However, that doesn't fit with the theme of the kit at all, nor indeed is it possible to select a Kit for a Ranger when you are multiclassed ; nor does it suit the NPC here.

Assuming that you are doing this primarily for an NPC rather than an attractive, powerful stand-alone Kit, you may wish to consider not creating any spells of your own, and doing very minor adjustments to existing ones for your scope of work. Further, since Animals are very few in BG2, simply apply it to everyone. So you get following spells, as with level Annotations

2nd level
Hold Creature (level 2 Cleric spell Hold Person)
3rd level
Domination (level 4 Druid spell)
7th level
Animal Shapes (Druid shape change, I understand)
8th level
Creeping Doom (level 7 druid spell)
9th level
Shapechange (level 9 mage spell)

Plant Domain Spells
1st level
Entangle (level 1 druid spell)
2nd level
Barkskin (level 2 druid spell)
9th level
Shambler - (look at Conjure Lesser Earth Elemental, level 5 Mage spell, create an alternate CRE called the Shambler, summon that thing. easily fixed)

Good Domain Spells
1st level
Protection from Evil (level 1 cleric spell)
2nd level
Aid (level 2 druid spell)
4th level
Holy Smite (level 3 cleric spell)
5th level
Dispel Evil (maybe Dispel Magic, level 3 Cleric spell)
6th level
Blade Barrier (level 6 Cleric spell)
7th level
Holy Word (level 7 Cleric spell)
9th level
Summon Monster IX - Good only (maybe say, 3 simultaneous castings of level 5 mage spell is SM3? or equivalent to 1 Elemental Summoning? I'd go with the latter)

===================

So we see that this Ranger has access to some rather decent spells. Excluding those that a Ranger would "naturally" have (eg Entangle, Barkskin), we see the following in approx level of power.

Animal Shapes (Druid shape change, I understand)

Domination (level 4 Druid spell)
Conjure Shambler (level 5 Mage spell)
Blade Barrier (level 6 Cleric spell)
Creeping Doom (level 7 druid spell)
Holy Word (level 7 Cleric spell)
Shapechange (level 9 mage spell)
Elemental Summoning (Druid HLA)

Because I don't really see the point of swapping out a good ranger for a bear, I would exclude Animal Shapes, and I'm sure Mielikki ain't fond of werewolves, I will just drop the ability totally.

Considering the above list, I would like to propose also this spell "Call Woodland Beings" to replace or add to "Conjure Shambler". Coincidentally this spell has themes very much in line with what I gather of the kit, plus it takes away the need for the Ranger himself to have Domination (anyway which the original is Dominate Animal, quite different...)

So we get the following spells left, and can be implemented as Innate Abilities as follows as suggested at the following tiers :
Call Woodland Being (level 4 Cleric spell) - Level 12, Level 18, level 25
Conjure Shambler (level 5 Mage spell) - Level 13, Level 19, level 26
Blade Barrier (level 6 Cleric spell) - Level 14, Level 20, level 27

The rest are accessible as HLA abilities.
Creeping Doom (level 7 druid spell)
Holy Word (level 7 Cleric spell)
Shapechange (level 9 mage spell)
Elemental Summoning (Druid HLA)

Done, and simply too.

==========================

The next debate - any need for drawbacks ? If you stick to the above 7 spells, actually there's really no strong need for drawbacks, literally the spells are "no big deal" and I'd frankly have Greater Whirlwind over all of the 4 "new" HLA spells, except maybe Creeping Doom, and even then maybe not.

But for the sake of argument, probably the most painful way to create drawbacks is to limit weapon proficiency. Seriously, just set all the melee weapon proficiencies to a max of 1 (similar to Archer but less the armor penalties) and I think its about set.
Plus I think it fits more in line with the theme - someone with that much control over animals, plus being of the woods, you'd think he'd know better than to get up close.

[berelinde]

Ah, that's the issue. It looked to me like Eric P. was proposing a kit that would combine all of a ranger's existing abilities with a specialty cleric's unlimited spell selection (specialty priests get a high number of spells spanning levels 1-7). Limiting it to a ranger's normal spell selection and adding a few "special" spells at higher levels would be much better balanced. I would still advise limiting the armor or weapon selection, though, both for roleplay reasons (a specialty priest of Mielikki in full plate? ) and for balance reasons (offsets the advantages gained by Creeping Doom and Holy Word, both incredibly effective spells).

Edited by berelinde, 11 June 2010 - 03:11 AM.

[vilkacis]

The multiclassing talk is moot since the engine doesn't allow ranger/druids anyway. The closest you'll get is ranger/cleric or fighter/druid.

I don't even know where these high-level spells came from - I mean, obviously a 3E source, but 3E still limits rangers to lv1-4 magic. There's no reason to even involve material from another edition since 2E already provides all the necessary info.

As described in Faiths & Avatars, a Needle is a ranger with access to two extra spheres - and that's it. It's perfectly balanced within BGII provided you can find some interesting spells in those spheres. The second-level ones listed in the book, "Stalk" (basically invisibility in woodland areas only) and "Wood Sword" (magic weapon, dmg 1/lvl, duration 1rd/lvl), would be a good start.

You could possibly simulate the favoured enemy mechanic, but it shouldn't be necessary and has no basis in lore.

[Eric P.]

Ah, that's the issue. It looked to me like Eric P. was proposing a kit that would combine all of a ranger's existing abilities with a specialty cleric's unlimited spell selection (specialty priests get a high number of spells spanning levels 1-7). Limiting it to a ranger's normal spell selection and adding a few "special" spells at higher levels would be much better balanced. I would still advise limiting the armor or weapon selection, though, both for roleplay reasons (a specialty priest of Mielikki in full plate? ) and for balance reasons (offsets the advantages gained by Creeping Doom and Holy Word, both incredibly effective spells).

Oh, no, I wouldn't want to give the kit the full range of cleric spells. As for spell levels accessible, an expanded range of a limited list of spells might be one of the kit's benefits. Otherwise, the cap of fourth level spells could remain, and the effects of the higher-level spells could be made into HLAs and/or innates. I like the arrangement of spell selection and HLAs that Zyraen proposed. I especially agree that shapechange should be an HLA. Another possibility--an idea I like, though easily dropped if unbalancing--is to give the ranger an animal companion. I don't recall this being part of 2E rules, but it's been around since 3.x D&D rules, and is a very nice addition for a ranger, especially if the animal is good in combat (but said animal would be marginally to ineffective against more powerful foes).

Such a kit would need to allow the ranger to be a competent warrior, whether the character specializes in archery or in two-weapon fighting. Or spear mastery. Or two-handed weapon fighting. I wouldn't limit all weapons to a maximum of one star, but prohibiting some weapons might be a good idea, especially if needed for balance or thematic purposes. This is the warrior arm of Mielikki's faith; as such, the kit should help a ranger to be almost as capable in combat situations as a fighter. Would it be obscene to allow for three stars in a single weapon and/or fighting style of choice, and then limit all others to one star? Or allow three for one choice, and leave the existing maximum of two stars for other weapons?

About armor: if all armor types are allowed, then of course there would be penalties to certain abilities while wearing anything heavier than studded leather, in keeping with PnP rules. Some actions could even be forbidden while wearing such heavier armor. Or the kit could forbid wearing anything heavier than studded leather altogether.

It's great to see this being explored! Even if the end result is a kit that only my mod NPC would have, it will have been worth the brainstorming, and very helpful in my own understanding of how to apply such customizations to a character with both the theme and game balance in mind.

Thanks, and please keep the ideas coming!
Eric

[berelinde]

About armor: if all armor types are allowed, then of course there would be penalties to certain abilities while wearing anything heavier than studded leather, in keeping with PnP rules. Some actions could even be forbidden while wearing such heavier armor. Or the kit could forbid wearing anything heavier than studded leather altogether.

When you make a kit, you have to choose item usabilities. You can mimic existing kits/classes, but you can't invent new ones. Since Stalkers are permitted the use of any weapon but prohibited from wearing any armor heavier than studded leather, you could set up the kit's item usabilities to mimic the Stalker kit, but you could not apply a penalty to wearing plate, since no kit currently does that. It's all or nothing.

Does this make sense?

[Eric P.]

About armor: if all armor types are allowed, then of course there would be penalties to certain abilities while wearing anything heavier than studded leather, in keeping with PnP rules. Some actions could even be forbidden while wearing such heavier armor. Or the kit could forbid wearing anything heavier than studded leather altogether.

When you make a kit, you have to choose item usabilities. You can mimic existing kits/classes, but you can't invent new ones. Since Stalkers are permitted the use of any weapon but prohibited from wearing any armor heavier than studded leather, you could set up the kit's item usabilities to mimic the Stalker kit, but you could not apply a penalty to wearing plate, since no kit currently does that. It's all or nothing.

Does this make sense?

Makes sense, if that's one of the game engine limitations. Looks like the best way to go is to mimic the Stalker kit, in this case, as long as that won't interfere with the other aspects of the Needle kit.

Thanks!
Eric

[berelinde]

No, abilities gained on level advancement and HLAs are all controlled by separate tables. CamDawg wrote a excellent kit tutorial that will help you get it sorted quickly enough. Serioulsy, this will probably be the least-challenging thing you do as part of the NPC-making process. OK, I find spell modding impossible, but that's just because I never had any serious interest in it. Sooner or later, everything becomes familiar. Besides, it looks like you are merely adding existing spells as special abilities, so you should be able to add them using one of the 2da *as* special abilities without fooling with custom spells.

As part of the kit description, you might perhaps explain how rangers/priests of Mielikki wound up with the unlikely name of "Needle." Sure, pine needles are a woodland thing, but so is oak moss. Sorry, but the name has just been rattling around inside my skull, making me think of all the mending I've been putting off.

Edited by berelinde, 11 June 2010 - 11:28 AM.

[Eric P.]

No, abilities gained on level advancement and HLAs are all controlled by separate tables. CamDawg wrote a excellent kit tutorial that will help you get it sorted quickly enough. Serioulsy, this will probably be the least-challenging thing you do as part of the NPC-making process. OK, I find spell modding impossible, but that's just because I never had any serious interest in it. Sooner or later, everything becomes familiar. Besides, it looks like you are merely adding existing spells as special abilities, so you should be able to add them using one of the 2da *as* special abilities without fooling with custom spells.

As part of the kit description, you might perhaps explain how rangers/priests of Mielikki wound up with the unlikely name of "Needle." Sure, pine needles are a woodland thing, but so is oak moss. Sorry, but the name has just been rattling around inside my skull, making me think of all the mending I've been putting off.

Yes, my intent was that the spells be as-is.

I don't believe there's been anything published to explain the name. They're a branch of the Walkers of the Forest Way; druid "priests" are called Forestarms, and ranger "priests" are called Needles. I suppose the name could be changed, but to anything with a forest theme.

- E

[Eric P.]

The kit's name should be changed to Mielikki's Hand. Lave came up with this while we were discussing the basic idea. The name speaks to the function and activities, I think.

- E