23 replies to this topic

[Archmage Silver]

Considering how much debate this one change in the series has caused around the internets, here's your poll. I went for "I don't like the idea". They could have just gone with the traditional style... if it's not broken, don't fix it.

[Solar's Harper]

Honestly, about Hawke I couldn't really care less, unless certain parameters signal red alert signs, such as for example: an incredibly naive halfwit for a protagonist who we *have* to endure all the time - which while might make for good RPG element, there are exceptions in my opinion.

As my other posts have indicated though, I am heavily concerned about this whole "world revoles around douchebag A" thing. That's the sort of thing that belongs only in the wasteland that is MMORPG, I say. I understand them wanting a plot to be highly involving, but experience has shown on numerous occasions that this just doesn't happen correctly, you either wake up an egocentric bastard who can't even get any joy of being a bastard to everyone - or you start talking to Mr. Flibble.

To me, the whole customization thing was more a treat than a necessity, you still didn't exactly have full control over your character either. RPG far as I'm concerned is really about how much one can get into their role. You may spend 18 hours on something, without taking a break, but if you genuinely can't say anything moved you to devote time to it other than completion's sake, then it's a failed result.

So yeah, Hawke, if you can prove yourself at least a character rather than some cut-out, you might yet get a positive score. Of course one thing more important, the plot, will be harshly examined - if it turns out to be nothing more than cut outs and ego-player material, like ME2 ended up indulging for a fair portion of things, expect a very sharp negative. This'll be off-set naturally if they market it as something involving only two benches, with no grey marks, judge by thy boasted standards.

Bioware has a reputation as solid plot writers, but recent works have been far from impressive unless you believe five seconds IGN and what-not. I mean hell, one look at Awakening and you can say "Dragon Age: Attack of the Clones," that's how bad it has become.
They're not completely horrid, of course, but they're certainly sub-par for the most part - which is unfortunate since they've been expanding two of their own universes with these. The potential is there - the execution isn't.

[berelinde]

I'm ambivalent, but on balance, I don't like the idea. It would have been nice to be able to choose from a number of origins and races.

[Darziak]

I don't know yet I'll wait till I know more before I make a decision.

[Cal Jones]

Honestly, the idea of playing as a certain character doesn't bother me too much. After all, in DA:O you play as Amell or Brosca or Cousland etc. You're a pre-conceived character; however, you can determine your gender, appearance and choices. I don't see how Hawke will be different - the only changes are that you only have one character to choose, and s/he'll be voiced.

As for the human thing, I prefer playing humans so that's fine with me (though I understand people being disappointed by the lack of choice).

As far as Awakening goes, I still haven't installed it due to its "issues" - if they get around to fixing the problems then I'll give it a go. From what I hear, though, I have concerns over the story and the Warden's fate - but that's a whole other issue. I really hope Bioware don't drop the ball on DA2.

[Eleima]

I initially voted for "I don't like the idea". Now that the initial surprise has died down, I'm beginning to warm up to the concept. As we all know, and as it has been pointed out previously, there has been instances in the history of RPG games, in which we were given a predefined character (The Nameless One is the one that comes to mind), and it worked out well. In fact, we became attached to these characters, as much as we would have been had they sprung from our own imagination. I think that the massive initial reaction of displeasure and disappointment which has been rampant these last few days since they announced "Hawke", stems from the deep-rooted, instinctual fear of the new and unknown. I'm certainly going to give Hawke a chance. That doesn't mean that I like or dislike the idea, it's just that I've now adopted the more cautious "wait and see" approach.
After all, let's face it. This is BioWare, and they tend to deliver, right?

[Yovaneth]

As far as Awakening goes, I still haven't installed it due to its "issues" - if they get around to fixing the problems then I'll give it a go.

[OT] - Do a new install of DA:O and jump straight to patch 1.03. It seems pretty stable that way: at least, I didn't have any more CTDs than I got with the main game. Also, there are various third-party addons to fix the unfixed problems, which worked for me. Go trawl DragonAge Nexus for 'Awakenings'.[/OT]

-Y-

Edited by Yovaneth, 13 July 2010 - 02:26 AM.

[princesspurpleblob]

I don't likt the idea. I'm still trying to be open minded. Still, it's really hard to warm up to idea at this point.

[Philiposophy]

Characters like the Nameless One and the Exile have taught me that preset characters are not necessarily a bad thing and can be done well. So on that front, I'm not going to condemn the game now just for that. I also prefer to play as a human so that doesn't bother me too much, though I can understand if others are annoyed.

What does concern me though is what they've told us so far about what Hawke was doing when the Blight hit. Apparently s/he was in Lothering and fled Ferelden altogether rather than fight against the darkspawn. It sounds like Hawke was certainly capable of fighting rather than being just a child or something, yet chose not to. That means that Hawke is already painted as being either cowardly or completely self-interested to the extent that s/he just doesn't care about anyone else. Unless they give him/her a very good reason for fleeing (though what is more urgent than a Blight?), it could well annoy me.

[Archmage Silver]

My biggest gripe is possibly the fact that by removing choices and restricting players to one specific character, BioWare brings the game to a state where it's closer to an ARPG than Origins ever was. If DA II isn't already classified as an Action RPG, it could soon be, because there just isn't much that BioWare can simplify without reverting to Mass Effect with swords.

ARPGs can be very good, as the ME series continues to prove, but I never wanted BioWare to solely focus on them, not even if the whole RPG genre is changing, which seems to be the case. I want my fantasy RPGs to be true RPGs, not ARPGs, although I do enjoy those once in a while.

There's also talk about the voiced main character being an upgrade, but I don't think that's the case, not with the apparent sacrifices we have to make to gain that feature. If it comes down to voice vs. choice, I'll take choice any day. It's just the principle of the matter - if you can exchange the various races for a voiced human PC, what's next?

And while there have been a few successful preset characters, TNO and the Exile like Philiposophy mentioned, it's worth pointing out that neither were developed by BioWare. Shepard in the ME series (ARPG), and Revan in KotOR (RPG) to a lesser extent, are what BioWare has come up with so far, and only Shepard is voiced. Out of all those, only TNO has made a lasting impression on me as a preset character, and I find it overly optimistic to expect that BioWare can match Torment in writing.

[Cal Jones]

I'm playing the Witcher, currently, where you are stuck playing Geralt (well, not surprisingly given the game is based on the books where he is the protagonist) - and this games has received all sorts of plaudits. Players don't seem to mind playing a predefined character like Geralt or TNO even though you can't change the character's appearance or gender, and are playing their story rather than your own.

Likewise, a more flexible character such as Gorion's Ward, the Kalach'cha or the Vault Dweller also seem to get the thumbs up because, even though they have a set background, you can customise their name, gender, appearance and class/skillset.

The problem seems to be middling characters like Shepard or the Exile, which give the illusion that they're your character - you can pick gender and character class and change their appearance - but you are still playing their story.

I'm undecided at this point. I love ME and identify more with my Shepards than I can with Geralt of Rivia, but on the other hand, Thedas isn't space. I want to see more of the game before I judge it, either way.

[WeeRLegion]

It could turn out well enough, but I still sort of dread the change.
If I had to pick between more of the same old DAO, with maybe a little more polish and a few new tricks, and something different that seems to be drifting into a fairly new direction as the news thus far imply, I'd certainly pick the good old.

I also find it an very odd move. The origins and options were such an major marketing point for pt.1 of the series, that it seems wasteful to throw it all away instead of improving on it keeping the current fans happy. o_o

[Archmage Silver]

I'm playing the Witcher, currently, where you are stuck playing Geralt (well, not surprisingly given the game is based on the books where he is the protagonist) - and this games has received all sorts of plaudits. Players don't seem to mind playing a predefined character like Geralt or TNO even though you can't change the character's appearance or gender, and are playing their story rather than your own.

Likewise, a more flexible character such as Gorion's Ward, the Kalach'cha or the Vault Dweller also seem to get the thumbs up because, even though they have a set background, you can customise their name, gender, appearance and class/skillset.

The problem seems to be middling characters like Shepard or the Exile, which give the illusion that they're your character - you can pick gender and character class and change their appearance - but you are still playing their story.

I'm undecided at this point. I love ME and identify more with my Shepards than I can with Geralt of Rivia, but on the other hand, Thedas isn't space. I want to see more of the game before I judge it, either way.

I never liked the idea of Witcher or the Gothic series, those preset characters screamed "action adventure game" to me. Heck, I even tried to play Gothic 1 years ago, and when that failed, I picked up Gothic 3 a couple of years back, but it was worse than Oblivion. The only truly preset character I like is TNO, and PS:T actually has all the RPG elements in place, not to mention good writing (and hey, let's face it, it's an IE game). That's just how it works for me.

Generally speaking though, if I can't customize my protagonist, I usually tend to get bored, because I can't get immersed in the game - I'm just an observer. Like you mentioned, all RPG protagonists are preset in some ways, but it all comes down to just how much they are limited. I require a decent amount of choices to get immersed in the game. Shepard, the Exile, and Revan are pretty close to the cap for me, but still enjoyable to play. I'd say Gorion's Ward, the Vault Dweller, the Warden, and the Kalach'cha are pretty optimal for me.

Then there are games like Icewind Dale, Arcanum, and Wizardry 8, where the freedom is even greater in that the characters are just blank slates until I come up with their stories. I guess an active imagination and willingness to RP helps me there, because I can identify more easily with these characters than the preset ones.

I also find it an very odd move. The origins and options were such an major marketing point for pt.1 of the series, that it seems wasteful to throw it all away instead of improving on it keeping the current fans happy. o_o

Shorter development time = less costs = more profit. It's odd though, because according to an Escapist article I read, DA sold better than Mass Effect 2. I guess it really came down to the development time.

[Cal Jones]

I understand about the customisation. The problem with the KC, Gorion's Ward and the Lone Wanderer is that they're all basically kids. Customisable, yes, but their age is predetermined. I'm 43 now and I am sick to the back teeth of finding out my character is 19 or 20. In some ways, I find Shepard easier to identify with because he's a bit older (29 first game, 31 in ME2). TNO is, well, of unknown age; Revan and Exile can be whatever age you want, within reason.

I like the approach the Elder Scrolls series takes more. Although that game lacks for supporting characters and their banter, I enjoy the fact you can be exactly who you want to be. The ideal for me would be a game like that, but with companions and romances. But the damn voicing thing makes that rather difficult.

[Gorzag]

I'll reserve my judgment until we know more, but in general, I don't have a problem with predefined characters. Games never give you full freedom in your actions anyway, so in a sense even the more customized characters are predefined. I've never really interested the recent trend that everything has to be customizable. For me it's more of a bonus than anything that really matters. Granted, it's a bit different in RPGs, which it has always been a part of, but still I'd rather have more focus placed on the story & gameplay. However, predefined characters have to be interesting enough to make me care about them. Both TNO and Geralt (he's better in the books though) succeeded in that, but based on the info we now have, Hawke doesn't seem very interesting.

As for voice acting, I have often discussed this with a friend of mine and while he thinks it's almost a must have, I think it work either way. Voice acting often makes the dialogue feel more alive, provided it's decent. On other hand, sometimes it breaks immersion when, for example, the voice actor fails to convey a suitable emotion (I'm looking at you Shepard), or simply has voice that doesn't suit the character.

Overall, I'm far more concerned with this "more action" direction they are taking. Granted, I didn't much like the combat system in DA:O, but there are other games for "action". Not that Action RPGs can't be good, Mass Effect 1 & 2 are among my favourite games, but I'd like to have something else too.

Edited by Gorzag, 14 July 2010 - 10:05 AM.

[Archmage Silver]

I understand about the customisation. The problem with the KC, Gorion's Ward and the Lone Wanderer is that they're all basically kids. Customisable, yes, but their age is predetermined. I'm 43 now and I am sick to the back teeth of finding out my character is 19 or 20. In some ways, I find Shepard easier to identify with because he's a bit older (29 first game, 31 in ME2). TNO is, well, of unknown age; Revan and Exile can be whatever age you want, within reason.

I like the approach the Elder Scrolls series takes more. Although that game lacks for supporting characters and their banter, I enjoy the fact you can be exactly who you want to be. The ideal for me would be a game like that, but with companions and romances. But the damn voicing thing makes that rather difficult.

Yeah, I can see your point, and trust me, you're not the only person I've heard this complaint from. I've yet to experience that frustration due to me being in the target audience age group, but I can see the problem in defining the protagonist's age, it's definitely a double-edged sword for the developers.

Dragon Age did better in this respect though, what with the multiple origins, races and so forth. Baldur's Gate... well, not so much. Elves aren't even fully grown at 19 or 20, as they reach adulthood at the age of 110. And yet Gorion rescued his Ward as an infant. I guess Bhaalspawn powers really make you grow fast... but I digress. TNO's age is anywhere from 250 years to 1000 years, so I don't think there's a target age group available...

As for TES games, they are indeed the best in letting you play who you want to, I'll give you that, but like said, Bethesda has a horrible track record when it comes to NPCs, dialogue and, well, the general quality of their games. Without the modding community their games wouldn't even be playable to me.

Also, I really hope they have a more personal villain this time, rather than a few minor villains and a big bad monster at the end.

I'm still waiting for Irenicus 2.0, but I also think Belhifet and Sun Li, "The Glorious Strategist", are well written villains as well.

Edited by Archmage Silver, 15 July 2010 - 01:38 AM.

[Kulyok]

I'm not comfortable with it. It's not about the race or origin, though. It's about Hawke's personality.

I prefer a character with a personality I define myself. Noble or callow, cunning or thick, conflicted or black-and-white. With the Nameless One, I could do that. With this Hawke fellow/girl, I can't: it's already pre-established that this person escaped Lothering and ran to the Free Marches, (possibly) abandoning his or her family, friends and compatriots to the Blight.

In other words, I'm supposed to play an unpatriotic coward and/or opportunist. Right, and I kinda like Boba Fett, Spike or Artemis Entreri. But I want to CHOOSE who my character is. And here, it seems, we aren't getting that.

(Then again, in X-Files you're playing a writer wannabe and a divorced father, and it's still a great game).

[WeeRLegion]

Kulyok, I think you might be taking your inferences a few steps further than the established facts actually permit. There could be any number of alleviating circumstances and force majeure conditions present in the plot, forcing the decision instead of forcing the shape of the character.
Since DAO defined itself as heroic fantasy, I really think there will be something to hold the line, I'll be really surprised if we see a following kind of scenario:

ENTER SCENE 1

*Hawke walks in a field*
*Grinning Darkspawn appear*
Darkspawn: RAWR!
Hawke: Eeek!
*Hawke runs to WhateverWall*

EXIT SCENE 1

Simply. No way.
There almost surely will be something to excuse Hawksie.

[Kulyok]

I don't see anything that could excuse pre-determined behavior, I'm afraid. There's always something that sets character in motion, and it means that _someone else played our character first_.
- If there's a motivation(evacuating people to safety, saving Hawke's family, following the orders of Hawke's liege lord), it still assumes something about Hawke: that Hawke follows orders/cares about family or other people/is a coward or a deserter, as I first mentioned. Again, someone made decisions for my character. (I didn't like it in City Elf origin either, by the way - no way I'd agree to an arranged marriage).
- If there's a "you-can't-avoid-running" condition, I'd very much like to hear it - and I'm surprised Bioware didn't mention it. After all, we see that Grey Warden didn't leave Lothering until (s)he wanted to.