10 replies to this topic

[Tempest]

Work on ToB is progressing, albeit slowly due to real life time demands, and it's almost time to start outlining Darian's relationship with Aerie in ToB. However, there is a problem and his name is Haer'Dalis: if Charname has not romanced Darian or Aerie but has them both in the party, they'll decide to give things another chance when they realize that they were a matched pair of idiots in SoA. If Haer'Dalis is present in the same arrangement, they will come into conflict. While I'm aware that players who have all three in the party without romancing Darian or Aerie will probably be a distinct minority, I'm having trouble deciding how to handle the Darian/HD conflict and its resolution.

Now, Haer'Dalis and Aerie do canonically break up eventually in SoA or ToB regardless, so I'm tempted to write Darian automatically defeating Haer'Dalis with words alone. However, two other options I've seriously considered are Haer'Dalis challenging Darian to a duel over Aerie (as he does to Charname in SoA), or Aerie asking Charname's advice and basically letting the player choose.

Any strong thoughts or feelings from the peanut gallery?

Edited by Tempest, 07 February 2011 - 11:24 AM.

[Cykuta]

Well, the "ask player" part looks a little redundant. I mean, yes, there is some consistency here, but it basically means copying from existing material and it shows. Darian defeating Haer'Dalis by default, on the other hand, might come out a little Gary Suish to a player who hasn't thought about it this much: "oh, right, your npc beats the originals, how unusual."

However, as we do know Haer'Dalis and Aerie are not meant to last, and this is ToB you're talking about... Aerie is supposed to be wiser, more experienced and generally "grown up". Why not make her realise she's better off with Darian? After all, she is.

You're outlining many possibilities here, but they all leave the woman a passive plaything in the hands of three different people

[Tempest]

I'm concerned about stepping on players' toes too much. >_> Honestly, I am one of the people greatly annoyed by the Kelsey-Imoen romance for one: how I see Imoen does not work with that mod's interpretation. I know my view there is not universal, but it has a bearing here. As such, I'm trying to be considerate to the players whose interpretation of Aerie may differ from mine - I've noted that a fair few people see Aerie as basically evil. Not my interpretation, but again, that's how some people see it.

Worst comes to worst, I suppose I can always split this into optional installation things.

[Choo Choo]

You're never going to be able to please everyone, Tempest. You can split it into a *thousand* options and someone is still going to quibble.

It's your mod - go with what you would prefer and think best.

[Kaeloree]

I think Choo is right, but if you're looking for outside opinions, I doubt Haer'Dalis would challenge Darian to a duel. I think he would much rather bow out gracefully so he could watch their relationship unfold. As I recall, in his talks he admits his main reason for getting into a relationship with her is that he wants to help her become a stronger person, rather than out of a deep and abiding love for her.

[Choo Choo]

Hmm, if I remember correctly, the Aerie/Haer'Dalis romance dies no matter what after Saradush. Couldn't the Aerie/Darian thing start then? That way you walk around the problem entirely.

Edited by Choo Choo, 09 February 2011 - 12:23 AM.

[Kulyok]

Extra options are almost always good, but I feel that if PC-NPC romance is available, an extra NPC-NPC romance option diminishes the PC-NPC romance as a whole. Anomen may seem a deeply flawed person at times, but his devotion to the PC is unquestionable, because he romances _no one else_. The player(me, certainly) may not feel as good about a romance interest who, should the circumstances be different, chooses another NPC in ToB or right in SoA, right in the player's face.

To me, a female player, such a thing would equal Kelsey-Imoen romance, or close: a factor that makes me annoyed at my romance interest, not endeared to him.

Of course it's a given that Darian and Kelsey and other "Romance PC or romance NPC ABC" guys might probably romance someone in the future. Someone. In the future. After the game is over. So I'll thankfully never know and never see that, especially if the author thankfully never includes it in the epilogue. However, when this other romance appears loud and clear and in my face(when I just romanced this mod love interest a few hours ago and felt how special our bond were), I don't know if it's a good thing, after all. Because it clearly says that our PC-NPC thing is not that special and possibly not true love, that our romance interest can have this very special connection with someone else.

After all, would Romeo and Juliet be such a great story, if it were a mod and the player was free to let Romeo pursue his alternate Rosalinda romance?

So, I'd cut(or, rather, not implement) the whole Darian-Aerie thing. Friends? Sure. Both Avariel, interesting banters, a good connection? Excellent. Romance, when a PC romance is also available? No.

[Tempest]

Ironically, you've come uncomfortably close to hitting some major parts of Darian's ToB romance (with Charname) on the head. The readme notes that cracking Darian open might be worth it. Then again, it might not... for now, I'll note that Darian is *not* a perfect love interest or even an unusually virtuous one - he's not as devoted to Charname as Anomen, nor as hardworking in the relationship as Kelsey, nor as good-natured as Sarah. There are some good reasons why Darian's romance is designed to take a backseat to other suitors.

For now, though, I'll leave it at that. Still a bit premature to talk definitively about the specific details of how the ToB romance will go.

[berelinde]

If Darian is such a leukwarm suitor, would it not make sense for him to back out of any relationship if he senses competition? Why would he show more tenacity for Aerie than he would for the PC? After all, it isn't like Haer'Dalis is going to sit down with Darian and say "The dove is fair, but my interest is fleeting. I strive only to give her the confidence to try her wings."

It would find it jarring to see Haer'Dalis lose in a battle of words to Darian. Mod NPC versus BioWare NPC aside, when it comes to expressing themselves, I would expect an actor to have more success than a somewhat inhibited warrior. Just saying.

[Tempest]

Short version for why Darian would show some resolve facing Haer'Dalis: Aerie is different from <CHARNAME>, and their relationship, both the start that would be seen in ToB and in their epilogue, would progress differently. Different people, dramatically different circumstances. Darian is lukewarm in SoA because his affections are buried beneath layers of xenophobia and hostility - and part of the ToB romance will involve the fact that Darian's been trying to sort out where one part ended and another began. Darian levels out and calms down considerably in ToB, and is generally a more low-key sort of person.

I do agree that in a straight-up duel of words, Darian would lose. He has trouble expressing himself and relating to other people on an intimate level - that comes up in his SoA romance with Charname. Darian does have his strengths - he is rarely anything less than completely sincere (and when he is reticent, it shows, badly) and does make it clear where he stands... when he himself knows where he stands, which is less often than he'd wish. As it is, I may very well have Darian lose to Haer'Dalis if they're both present. HD *does* outmaneuver him in SoA, and is far more charismatic and persuasive. He relates to people better, and knows how to play Aerie. Darian... not so much.

I only say this because on my first play-through with Darian, I romanced him and his dialogue with Aerie seemed, IMHO, on the verge of hostile. There didn't seem to be any possibility of them ever having a romance, PC or no PC, aside from Aerie's one-sided infatuation. It surprised me when you announced Darian and Aerie would become closer in the TOB release.

Short version: Darian and Aerie are both the equivalent of teenagers, in my eyes - I see Aerie as being 16-17, Darian's 18-19, metaphorically. They realize in ToB that Darian was a colossal, hyper-judgmental and absurdly arrogant ass and Aerie wallowed in self-pity while holding an unrealistic vision of, and infatuation with, Darian. They've both grown up as characters by ToB, and decide to give things another shot as adults, as I've currently written it.

However, one other thing I'd like to note is that while I do currently intend to write the Darian/Aerie relationship becoming romantic in ToB, it is entirely possible this will not happen. I ultimately cut out my plans for Darian romancing Mazzy in SoA after it had been fully written, for one. While I'm trying to sort things out on the assumption that this latest plan will go through, I might find when writing it that I'm not happy with it or that things don't fit.

I am chronically guilty of promising the moon, then finding out that making arrangements for the moon's delivery are more complicated than I thought. Not the best trait in a modder, I know, but there you go.

Edited by Tempest, 09 February 2011 - 09:49 AM.