9 replies to this topic

[cbarchuk]

I'm trying out the RR bounty hunter. I never played the vanilla version so I can't really make a comparison. But so far its been a blast and the traps have worked great so far. My only issue is with paralytic toxin. I like the concept but is there anyway to extend the duration in future releases? I mean the issue is that thieves don't have great THACO to begin with much less many APR. So honestly it rarely goes off. Just my 2 cents. I'm pretty early into my game but that's what I've noticed thus far.

[Wisp]

Me, I'm more concerned with the fact the description says the substance evaporates. In order to evaporate in a round the liquid would need a very low boiling point, which translates into a simple (small) molecular structure. However, in that case it wouldn't be odourless. I mean, our sense of smell may be bad compared to that of, say, insects or the odd mammal, but it's not that bad. We'd definitely smell any small, volatile chemicals. I mean, most of them smell terrible, simply because they are produced by common spoilage processes. There's an advantage to being able to detect spoiled food and so we can smell it. The few that don't smell either have high boiling points (e.g., water) or they're not liquids at the temperature intervals involved here. But even the ones with high boiling points have significant vapour pressures. I mean, toluene smells something fierce and it has a boiling point ten degrees above that of water. Only reason we don't smell water is because it's such a common substance in our environment that we'd smell it everywhere, all the time. So, in order to not smell, the substance would need to not have any significant vapour pressure, which basically means it has such a high boiling point it's a solid, or it'd be complex/large/exotic enough to not be picked up by our rudimentary olfactory organ. In this latter case the molecule would be heavy and/or otherwise condensed enough to be a solid at the concerned temperatures. It certainly would if it'd have any significant biological activity. I mean, it can't just be some bare-bones kinda deal, or it wouldn't interact with anything receptor-like and thus wouldn't cause paralysis. Anyway, so, if it doesn't smell it'd pretty much have to be a solid. I mean, okay, some solids smell but it wouldn't have to, you know what I mean? But the stuff you apply to your weapon is a liquid. So if our stuff is a solid, that means we have a solution, which means we have a solvent, which means we are back to the smelly small molecule. Okay, either the substance or the solvent could be non-volatile enough to not smell that much, but then they also wouldn't evaporate that quickly. And if it was a solid, the solvent may evaporate, but the solid would crystallise on the weapon and retain its potency. Sure, you could say that this substance does not play by our chemical and physical rules. But for that you need new atoms, and for that you need a new periodic table, and for that you need new physics, down to the subatomic level, with the quarks and whatnot. Considering we haven't even figured out how our own reality works I'd hardly say we are qualified to go off inventing new ones. I mean, it's just not credible. And you can't say magic either, because the description only invokes herbalism and alchemy. Of course, alchemy was bunk and may as well be called magic. At least if it worked. But it doesn't. And it also wasn't about making potions and tonics and other things we may associate with the chemistry of today. Alchemy was about turning crap into gold and becoming immortal. I mean, okay, maybe they did advance methodology, isolated and identified a few elements and made some other neat discoveries, but it was still basically just superstition and mumbo jumbo. Not science. Okay, maybe you could sneak magic in via the herbalism, but then you'd need magic plants and I mean, come on, magic plants? If you suggest that I'd say you've been hitting that magic mushroom, you know? Fungi aren't plants, by the way.

So I mean, yeah, it doesn't make sense.

[cbarchuk]

Oooookay.

[Pol]

And if it was a solid, the solvent may evaporate, but the solid would crystallise on the weapon and retain its potency.

Maybe not, the poison could be soluble in whatever solvent the BH mixes it with, but insoluble in our bloodstream (for instance capsaicin is alcohol soluble, water insoluble) - so crystals of it might not be as effective as a solution miscible with water.

Also, quite a few proteins denature quickly at air/fluid interface, but that's not in the description.

Balance wise, I wouldn't mind a longer duration for the poison to expire (or evaporate); it's a bit less powerful than the monk's stunning blow, considering rogues' APR - the duration of paralysis can stay at 1 round as any longer is basically a death sentence. It would be good if it could be made not to bypass stoneskin, as is the case with regular poison, but I don't think it can be done without an exe hack.

[Wisp]

And if it was a solid, the solvent may evaporate, but the solid would crystallise on the weapon and retain its potency.

Maybe not, the poison could be soluble in whatever solvent the BH mixes it with, but insoluble in our bloodstream (for instance capsaicin is alcohol soluble, water insoluble) - so crystals of it might not be as effective as a solution miscible with water.

That's true, but then the solvent would have to be sufficiently volatile to evaporate reasonably quickly, sufficiently hydrophilic to be miscible with water and sufficiently lipophilic to dissolve our active component. While that's not an impossible requirement, it does curtail our options quite a bit and I don't think any of the volatile, sufficiently hydrophilic liquids can satisfy our requirement for odourlessness.

Then there's the matter of viscosity. A toxin like this would have to be pretty viscous, or it'd simply flow/drain right off our weapon before it had a chance to do its stuff. Viscosity is another property that tends to be irreconcilable with volatility.


RE: the actual issue.
Yeah, the duration could probably stand being extended by a round or so.

[Dakk]

Oooookay.

My thoughts exactly!

[Wisp]

Second, the comment about simple molecular structure isn't actually true. It's great you're interested in such things, but an incredible simple molecule, the oxide of hydrogen, has a much lower vapor pressure than than heavier solvents seen in the lab like hexane, toluene, etc etc.

I did not say all small molecules had a high vapour pressure. I said a liquid of high vapour pressure most probably meant a small molecule. Small molecules generally smell. The fictional substance/solution is described as being odourless and volatile. Those are conflicting properties. More so if we also add high viscosity to the list.

Second. the whole post was a jest (wall of rambling text).

Edited by Wisp, 06 October 2011 - 04:48 AM.