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Thoughts on Weird Changes


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#1 -Wingte-

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 03:42 PM

Can't find a specific forum for this stuff specifically for someone doing a Big World Standard game that was loaded in the default mode.

OK,, Lets start with the "containers". It seems to be a forgone conclusion that the various "bags" ARE going to cause stuttering/slow game play. When I was reading the BWP faq it clearly stated that the "conjurable stores" from I think it was BG1 Tweaks was being replaced by the bags because they were "better". Since they obviously aren't better, how about someone posting the process to put the conjurable stores back into the game? Here is an idea for an interesting mod. Make those stores only work for sorcerers, mages, and magic casting bards.

Bassilus is an evil cleric. An evil cleric using a shield with a Thaco penalty that adds to the armor class of those around it? Give me a break!! There is no way an evil cleric would have that Shield of the Falling Stars. This shield would make a really good starting item for Fitch and it would fit right in with her Bio. And a +1 sword for Bassilus?? Give me another break!! Even an evil cleric should have the weapons appropriate for his class. Give him back that +2 electric hammer. It is the perfect weapon for an evil cleric. Kills slowly by breaking bones and tortures with electricity.

Elander's Gloves of Might. Nice gloves. Why do they reduce the armor class? Are they supposed to? If so why isn't that effect in the description?

Gauntlets of the Drow. No character class restrictions and no mention of it in the description,, but they make a spell caster (any kind of spell caster) have about an 80% spell failure rate.

The "SCRIPTS": I like them simple.. What happened to the Ranged script that had the character retreat rather than switch to a mle weapon?

#2 10th

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 04:37 PM

Can't find a specific forum for this stuff specifically for someone doing a Big World Standard game that was loaded in the default mode.

OK,, Lets start with the "containers". It seems to be a forgone conclusion that the various "bags" ARE going to cause stuttering/slow game play. When I was reading the BWP faq it clearly stated that the "conjurable stores" from I think it was BG1 Tweaks was being replaced by the bags because they were "better". Since they obviously aren't better, how about someone posting the process to put the conjurable stores back into the game? Here is an idea for an interesting mod. Make those stores only work for sorcerers, mages, and magic casting bards.


Please reread those sections again. Containers cause stuttering if you have too many of them AND/OR simply too much items stored in them. That's why BWP doesn't install "Add Bags of Holding" from BG2 Tweaks. Which is unnecessary, as it's still the player's choice to pick them up and use them. Moreover, as extended capacity for containers also causes stuttering, BWP doesn't install maximum capacity components for containers and instead sticks to atweaks's sensible capacity limit.

Additionally ToBEX offers an optimised bag search code in order to fix that problem. If that's not enough for you, use the packmule mod, which adds a "7th party member" which only carries items. If you're interested in the packmule mod, be aware, that any items carried by it won't be checked by the game's code. This can be benefical, as it potentially reduces stuttering, and detrimental, as the game won't recognise that you have an item, as it's in the packmule's backpack.

Bassilus is an evil cleric. An evil cleric using a shield with a Thaco penalty that adds to the armor class of those around it? Give me a break!! There is no way an evil cleric would have that Shield of the Falling Stars. This shield would make a really good starting item for Fitch and it would fit right in with her Bio. And a +1 sword for Bassilus?? Give me another break!! Even an evil cleric should have the weapons appropriate for his class. Give him back that +2 electric hammer. It is the perfect weapon for an evil cleric. Kills slowly by breaking bones and tortures with electricity.


ThAC0 penalty comes from item revisions's shield revision component. Changed item properties obviously also come from item revisions. The +1 sword could come from Lost Items, ktweaks or maybe even BP-Balancer, though I doubt it in the latter case. Moreover, ktweaks would leave his +2 hammer in his inventory.

If you really wanna know which mod was responsible, you'd have to do a change-log on Bassilus's cre-file.

Elander's Gloves of Might. Nice gloves. Why do they reduce the armor class? Are they supposed to? If so why isn't that effect in the description?

Gauntlets of the Drow. No character class restrictions and no mention of it in the description,, but they make a spell caster (any kind of spell caster) have about an 80% spell failure rate.


That's been deliberately changed by the cursed item revision mod. In order to make it more "fun" AND/OR "interesting" the original cursed items were redesigned, by giving them visible bonuses and invisible disadvanteges.

The "SCRIPTS": I like them simple.. What happened to the Ranged script that had the character retreat rather than switch to a mêlée weapon?


Which script related mods are installed?

10th

Edited by 10th, 07 November 2011 - 11:01 AM.

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#3 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 01:58 AM

Please reread those sections again. Containers cause stuttering if you have too many of them AND/OR simply too much items stored in them.

Actually it's caused by scripts that check what items the party has... not the containers themselves, as the game needs to load the content of the .sto file every time it checks what items the party has... and it that check is made 1000 times... ah, stutter.
For example the BGT's item breakage ... eeeh.

ince they obviously aren't better, how about someone posting the process to put the conjurable stores back into the game? Here is an idea for an interesting mod. Make those stores only work for sorcerers, mages, and magic casting bards.

Have you installed the mule mod ? It's what you ask, without the limitations you idiotically ask for... in a Megamod forum, as here, the thinks are done because it's makes things easier... usually.

That's been deliberately changed by the cursed item revision mod. In order to make it more "fun" AND/OR "interesting" the original cursed items were redesigned, by giving them visible bonuses and invisible disadvantages.

Somebody should ask Salk to make the items description to be unidentified one... :P And add the extra info to the identified one... :doh:

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 07 November 2011 - 02:02 AM.

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#4 F-man

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:17 AM

That's been deliberately changed by the cursed item revision mod. In order to make it more "fun" AND/OR "interesting" the original cursed items were redesigned, by giving them visible bonuses and invisible disadvantages.

Somebody should ask Salk to make the items description to be unidentified one... :P And add the extra info to the identified one... :doh:

Why? From what I have read about cursed items in D&D; some of them seem to appear as non-cursed magical items even after magical identification, so this method is quite suitable. Also the point of the mod was to change cursed items that way and as no-one uses unidentified items that (s)he doesn't already know beforehand, so why bother give cursed items special unidentified descriptions when those just make them even more suspicious.

#5 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 04:10 AM

Why? From what I have read about cursed items in D&D; some of them seem to appear as non-cursed magical items even after magical identification...

Cause they are magical items even after the identifications...
Why, cause they were so in the original game.
Yes, it made the user suspicious, but the items are wearable none the less, and since they have the said effect, why not tell the player...

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#6 F-man

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 11:36 AM

Why? From what I have read about cursed items in D&D; some of them seem to appear as non-cursed magical items even after magical identification...

Cause they are magical items even after the identifications...
Why, cause they were so in the original game.
Yes, it made the user suspicious, but the items are wearable none the less, and since they have the said effect, why not tell the player...

As I was saying, part of items curse can be that its user won't be able to notice that item is actually cursed until it's too late... and mod's purpose was to change those cursed item's so that they aren't like in the orginal game... :wall:

#7 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 01:54 PM

Have you installed the mule mod ? It's what you ask, without the limitations you idiotically ask for... in a Megamod forum, as here, the thinks are done because it's makes things easier... usually.


Yes, I already posted in the other thread that I had the mule mod and that it seemed to be working well. But I noted that it will only allow 20 gems and 20 scrolls in those respective bags and asked if the other saddle bags also had limits.

My whole point about the bags is,, why put something in the game that makes it unplayable??

The conjurable stores worked and didn't affect the playability of the game. If the issue was that the conjurable stores weren't (realistic) then make them usable only by magic users with the ability to conjure things.

#8 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 02:15 PM


The "SCRIPTS": I like them simple.. What happened to the Ranged script that had the character retreat rather than switch to a mle weapon?


Which script related mods are installed?

10th


I posted at the start, I did a Big World Standard installation using the default setting.

Whatever AI scripts that loads is what got loaded.

Since we are on AI Scripts,, that "CONTROL" script needs to be tweaked so the character will automatically attack enemies after a weapon change has been ordered. As it currently works, after a weapon change the character stops fighting and waits to be told specifically to start fighting again. This can be done either by clicking the character and then their weapons and then the enemy to attack, or by selecting all the party and clicking the enemy to attack. This doesn't make control of the character easier.

Now down at the bottom of the script menu there are 4 places for "CUSTOM" scripts. DEFAULT, KELSEYAI, M_RRM, M_RRR . What are these?

#9 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 02:52 PM

Hummnn,, I didn't intend to start a fight about item descriptions.

Before the advent of computerized Role playing games (yes there was such a time in the dim dark reaches of the past) I spent many years as a P&P Dungeon Master.

The rules clearly allowed me to create items that had dual help/hinder characteristics. The rules were also clear about it that I had to offer a way for the players to know ALL the characteristics of the item. If I cast "IDENTIFY" on an item, I should get the complete list of the item's attributes.

The shield meets this requirement.

The Gloves? Well, I guess you can say that since the AC penalty is immediately obvious that they also meet the requirement.

The gauntlets on the other hand don't. The only way you find out about the effect on spell casting is when you die in a battle because you effectively lost the ability to cast spells.

#10 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:33 PM

If you really wanna know which mod was responsible, you'd have to do a change-log on Bassilus's cre-file.


OK,, How would I go about doing this? I am a player, not a modder but I can follow directions.

I did a Big World Standard installation without Tactical using the default settings for what would be installed and the order it was installed.

Before someone asks for the Big World Debug file again,, I have it in .rar format but can't figure out how to post it to the forums.

I think I could upload it to my personal web page and make it downloadable.

#11 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:56 PM

Additionally ToBEX offers an optimised bag search code in order to fix that problem.


OK. What is "ToBEX"? Does it load automatically as part of the automated Big World installation? Is it something that has to be hunted down and run later?

#12 Sasha Al'Therin

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 04:40 PM

If you really wanna know which mod was responsible, you'd have to do a change-log on Bassilus's cre-file.

OK,, How would I go about doing this? I am a player, not a modder but I can follow directions.

get a copy of weidu or rename a setup-somemod.exe to weidu.exe then either go to the command/dos prompt and navigate to the game folder and type the following out or create a batch file with the following. either way you'll get what you need.

weidu filename --change-log --out outputfile
replace filename with the file in question and replace outputfile with something sensible that you will know to look for


What is "ToBEX"?

ToBex is a mod that modifies the Throne of Bhaal game version exe file.
My working mods:
an AI Party Script for BG2 game engine DOWNLOAD LINK ONLY!
Interactive Tweaks for BG series with some IWD support. DOWNLOAD LINK ONLY!
Rest For 8 Hours an IWD mod
-------------------------------------------
My contributions: BG1Fixpack, BG1Tweaks
On Hold: Solestia an NPC for SOA
-------------------------------------------
My website: http://sasha-altheri...s.com/index.htm

#13 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 06:10 PM

Bassilus is an evil cleric. An evil cleric using a shield with a Thaco penalty that adds to the armor class of those around it? Give me a break!! There is no way an evil cleric would have that Shield of the Falling Stars. This shield would make a really good starting item for Fitch and it would fit right in with her Bio. And a +1 sword for Bassilus?? Give me another break!! Even an evil cleric should have the weapons appropriate for his class. Give him back that +2 electric hammer. It is the perfect weapon for an evil cleric. Kills slowly by breaking bones and tortures with electricity.


I had to think about it to understand why I even posted about this since it (the sheild) is a really neat item and works real well at this stage of the game for my Dwarf Fighter/Thief with +++ in Axe. My post about previously being a P&P Dungeon Master cleared it up for me.

All the special effects, neat items, spells etc, in the world won't make a good Role Playing game if the story line and the characters in the story don't make sense. I didn't care a whit about why or how the THAC0 and the extra effects were coded or how Bassilus ended up with it and a sword.

I cared about how the shield fit into the story line. An evil Cleric would simply never use such an item.. Doesn't work with the characters alignment or the story line about Bassilus. And clerics don't use edged weapons. Doesn't fit with the character class.

Whoever created the mods that caused these things to happen might want to rethink them.

I didn't start this thread to ask for "help" with these (and I suspect there will be other things), I started it to point out weird things. Things that seem out of place in the story line or like the gauntlets, seem to violate the D&D rules. I can see where it might be acceptable under the rules for the "lore" ability to not pick up everything. But the "IDENTIFY ITEM" spell should reveal ALL item attributes. That is the description of the spell.

As I have said, I am an old player who used to create dungeons and the story(s) to support them, not a modder so I don't have any idea if that could be coded or not.

#14 -Wingte-

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 06:41 PM

If you really wanna know which mod was responsible, you'd have to do a change-log on Bassilus's cre-file.

OK,, How would I go about doing this? I am a player, not a modder but I can follow directions.

get a copy of weidu or rename a setup-somemod.exe to weidu.exe then either go to the command/dos prompt and navigate to the game folder and type the following out or create a batch file with the following. either way you'll get what you need.


OK, There is a copy of the WeiDU 672KB application in my BGII--SoA folder.


Not sure I need it since even if I have it, I don't know what to do with it. If it can help someone else keep Bassilus in character and they are willing to do it, I will try to dig it out.

weidu filename --change-log --out outputfile
replace filename with the file in question and replace outputfile with something sensible that you will know to look for


file in question = what?? The game folder?

Where do I put this line "
weidu BGII--SoA --change-log --out BWPchange
"

#15 10th

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:01 PM

get a copy of weidu or rename a setup-somemod.exe to weidu.exe then either go to the command/dos prompt and navigate to the game folder and type the following out or create a batch file with the following. either way you'll get what you need.

weidu filename --change-log --out outputfile
replace filename with the file in question and replace outputfile with something sensible that you will know to look for


There's an even easier way to do this, if the BWP was used:
- Look for change-log.bat in your BG2 folder, if it's not there, go to "your BG2 directory"\BiG World Installpack\move to main folder\ and copy it to "your BG2 directory".
- Right-click on it and choose edit.
- Replace ########.### in this line: WeiDU.exe --log nul --change-log ########.### >change-log/change-log.txt --out change-log
with the filename in question. Filename for Bassilus is bassil.cre.
- Save, and double-click on the changed change-log.bat.
- after a short while the command/dos prompt will vanish.
- go to "your BG2 directory"\change-log\ and open change-log.txt

This file lists all mods, which changed the change-logged file in chronological order.

If you want to find out filenames for various things like creatures, spells, items or areas, use Near Infinity and its search function.

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#16 -Wingte-

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 09:01 AM

As I have said, I am an old player who used to create dungeons and the story(s) to support them, not a modder so I don't have any idea if that could be coded or not.

In an earlier post I wrote:

Before the advent of computerized Role playing games (yes there was such a time in the dim dark reaches of the past) I spent many years as a P&P Dungeon Master.


I want to make it clear that I have the utmost admiration for those of you who work on the mods.. You have a talent I don't have and are willing to spend the time to promote and facilitate the game.

Years ago I became a Dungeon Master because I loved the game and was in a place where there were several players but no one who was willing to take the time or had the talent to create a story and then promote and facilitate the game.

When you create a mod, you have become the Dungeon Master. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should..

I learned early on that if I did things that violated the rules or simply turned the players off, I didn't get to play the game because no one would play in my Dungeon. With the advent of computerization this seems to have been lost since the modder has become disconnected from the players.

My first dungeon was one someone else had started and abandoned when he was transfered to a military duty station where he knew there wouldn't be enough people to play the game. I had to start from his story so I had to stay at least somewhat true to his original plot since many of the players had already spent time in his Dungeon.

Original game creators still know that they must offer an engaging story and a user friendly interface, or they won't sell many games. I am looking forward to seeing how well those who wrote major expansions did at telling a story and connecting it to the main plot.

In the case of Bassilus, the plot and story are already set.

The "bags" as currently coded in the default BIG WORLD installation make the game unplayable. They destroy the user interface.

The current Mule mod works and I don't see it as a problem that the items in the mules inventory aren't "visible" to the store keepers and enchanters and such. Just makes the game a bit more realistic by making me have to remember what I have in the pack and get it out when I need it.

After all, the old P&P players had to remember what they had in their packs. As the Dungeon Master it wasn't my responsibility to do that for them. If they forgot they had found a special sword that would only kill vampires on the first level and then didn't run into any vampires until the 5 level and died because they didn't use it, bad on them, not bad on me.

#17 Fouinto

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:07 AM

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Hi,

I don't mean to be rude, but, I guess you should really use change-log (as advised above) to discover the mods/components you dislike and then, don't install them anymore :cheers: (and let people that like these components/mods play with them :cheers: ) !

And everyone will be happy :woot:

#18 Jarno Mikkola

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:16 AM

weidu filename --change-log --out outputfile

&

There's an even easier way to do this, if the BWP was used:

I know you try well, but it might have been a good idea to link here...

This can be done either by clicking the character and then their weapons and then the enemy to attack, or by selecting all the party and clicking the enemy to attack. This doesn't make control of the character easier.

Push the SPACE button, easy. Uuh, do it before you change the weapon... as you can do the weapons change with all the time in the world.

Now down at the bottom of the script menu there are 4 places for "CUSTOM" scripts. DEFAULT, KELSEYAI, M_RRM, M_RRR . What are these?

What do you think they are ? There's also a description attached... and if they don't, don't nag about that... it's the mod makers fault it doesn't.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 09 November 2011 - 01:18 AM.

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#19 -Wingte-

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:01 PM


Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Hi,

I don't mean to be rude, but, I guess you should really use change-log (as advised above) to discover the mods/components you dislike and then, don't install them anymore :cheers: (and let people that like these components/mods play with them :cheers: ) !

And everyone will be happy :woot:


I am in the middle of a game.. As I understand the BW faq. Once it is installed,, changes are almost guaranteed to make the save game unusable.

So far I haven't found anything so bad that I feel like spending another 2 days installing the game. I am keeping notes and IF I ever do wipe it and start from scratch, the mod that screwed up the identify spell will not get installed.

Besides, as I have said several times, I am a player, not a modder. Not sure I can make any use of the change log even if I do manage to get it.

#20 GeN1e

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:37 AM

If I had to wildguess, it was Item Randomizer that gave the shield to Bassilus. It is also not recommended to install Randomizer along with Item Revisions, exactly for this very reason.

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