9 replies to this topic

[Tempest]

I know Valerie BG1 isn't even finalized yet, but I've begun work on her BG2 material. Early in her friendship, Valerie decides to address the elephant in the room: she is a Cowled Wizard, and fully supports what they do (she does NOT know what actually goes on in Spellhold), and the PC has ample reason to distrust or hate them. Valerie decides to clear the air, and I'd like to open it up to discussion some what arguments the PC might have against Valerie and/or the Cowled Wizards in general. I'd like to know what kind of things the PC might have to say in this discussion.

[TDouglas]

Well, aside from the whole bother with Imoen there's the issue with Valgyr (sp?). One interesting possibility is that Valerie knows Tolgeras (sp?), tho she may not (and probably doesn't) know why he wants Valgyr (or anything about the sphere). She may just know him by reputation ... and if that rep isn't sterling (and it's likely not to be) she could use that to attempt to gain charname's trust a bit (warning of treachery, etc).

There's also the issue with Edwins quest in the graveyard district ... the lich was concerned he was still being hunted by the cowled ones ... maybe she knows something about it? Could make for some interesting interjections, at the very least. Depends on how much of a history buff she is.

Finally, there's the guy in Imensvale working on the golem ... he's a cowled wizard as well, so she may have something interesting to say to him (and again, he may know more than he's ever let on about the troubles there ... having a cowled wizard in the party may just open him up a bit). Yet another possibility of further gaining charnames trust.

However, if she does in fact "fully support what they do", wouldn't she balk at the prospect of rescuing Imoen in the first place? After all, she and Irenicus were sent there by decree, so it would be against the laws of the very order she supports. I think you've got your hands full on that one .

[Tempest]

Nope, Valerie has her reasons for being fully on board with rescuing Imoen. You'll eventually learn what those are. And yes, Valerie will comment on various points in the story where the Cowled Wizards come up - there's a very good chance Valerie will be incompatible with a certain quest in the Docks.

This thread, however, is specifically and only for arguments and concerns Charname might voice in this particular dialogue.

[Rhaella]

Hmm. Well, my concerns would be two-fold: arcane and legal.

Quite a few of my wizardly or bardic PCs (especially those of a Mystran persuasion) would take issue with the Cowled Wizard stance on magic, having instead an "information wants to be free" take on magic and lore, so being able to argue the philosophy of it would be nice for fellow spellcasters.

Lots of Cowled Wizards do seem to take legalism to its ugly extremes: procedure for the sake of procedure, bureaucracy to the point where you can't get anything done, no place in the mindset for taking situations case-by-case. My CG and CNs would be pretty incensed by the inflexibility of their system and the utter impossibility of successfully navigating it.

My LG-LN types would, on the other hand, be unhappy and disturbed by the lack of due process and transparency in their ways.

And finally, there's really just so much corruption in the way the Cowls do things. The secrecy, the lack of real oversight or accountability. The fact that you can bribe them to get your spellcasting rights back (though no normal citizen is going to be able to afford 5000gp, so they're effectively just letting the rich and powerful -- and potentially dangerous -- do whatever they want anyway). It's a recipe for disaster.

[Tempest]

On that last count - the license - Valerie will offer an explanation, if you ask her about getting a license. Or Valerie herself will tell the PC if she talks down the Cowled Wizards sent to arrest you for casting magic - which she'll only do once. Normally, getting a license, if you have proven arcane capabilities, doesn't cost much - but you do have to sit through months of classes and examinations to make sure you won't be a general hazard to society. Valerie will note that you don't have time for that, and although she doesn't approve, you are in Athkatla. A bribe in the right pocket can get you a license no questions asked. That's more symptomatic of Amnish society in general.

I will note that the PC's chances of actually convincing Valerie to change her stance on magic and the Cowled Wizards are very low. I think this BG2 banter speaks for itself:

Aerie: ~Do you ever do anything but read and practice magic, Valerie? It seems like a horribly boring way to live.~

Valerie: ~What else can I do, Aerie? You've seen how most people in Amn flinch when they see my robes. I'm the witch in the woods that eats children, the monster under the bed.~

Aerie: ~You can't be serious! Who would ever think mages are monsters like that?~

Valerie: ~People who have lost family to mages, Aerie. Kangaxx. The Corthalas. Sythilis. Cyrvisnea. Irenicus. Even Kalah. How many people did he kill with his illusions, again?~

Aerie: ~Even one is too many, but... Magic isn't evil, Valerie. You have it in your blood.~

Valerie: ~I know. Magic is no more innately moral than any mundane force. I'm not saying I like how most people here regard magic, but I do understand it. And back to your original question, I *like* reading. In the absence of friends, books are adequate company.~

Aerie: ~Well, you do have at least one friend in Amn now.~

Edited by Tempest, 14 November 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Tempest]

After thinking about it, here is the reason Valerie supports your effort to break into Spellhold and save Imoen. This is a spoiler - Valerie will not normally reveal this until you arrive in Brynnlaw.

Spoiler

Valerie went behind your back when she realized your intentions and told her superiors about your plan. Thing is, Spellhold has gone silent. Given what Spellhold is, this could mean any number of things. Which range from merely bad to downright disastrous. The Cowled Wizards covertly approve of your intentions and told Valerie to offer you any and all necessary support - if you fail, they'll be forced to use... more extreme methods. Indeed, it's very possible that the Cowled Wizards will have a reward for restoring order to Spellhold when you return to Athkatla.

[Sanctifer]

After thinking about it, here is the reason Valerie supports your effort to break into Spellhold and save Imoen.

I think it's brilliant !

[Tempest]

I actually gave considerable thought to Valerie opening up an alternate route to Spellhold by working with the Cowled Wizards, but ultimately decided that it was beyond my present ability as a modder.

[Sanctifer]

I think the whole "undercover" thing works better, and is less game breaking than a new route, imho

[Tempest]

This dialogue continues to frustrate. I have argued with K'aeloree for hours about this subject, me taking Valerie's perspective, and trying to distill it into a dialogue that isn't ridiculously huge is proving very troublesome. I'm considering the dialogue leading into parentheticals stating that the PC and Valerie argue for a long time about the issue - Valerie won't yield in her belief that the Cowled Wizards are right, barring developments she doesn't foresee.

Edited by Tempest, 12 December 2012 - 02:08 PM.