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Scales of Balance: post-hac tweaks and kit pack


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#21 agb1

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 02:53 PM

To solve this for your current game, get a copy of Near Infinity, open the item in question and edit its "not usable by" bitmask (NI displays this with easy-to-use checkboxes) as needed to allow Kiyone to use it.

BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)

 

BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)

Latest version:    https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip


#22 ChitownWillie

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 09:28 AM

Hi subtledoctor,

 

Any plans to port over the EE options to non-EE games?

 

Example:

Component 200 (for EE 1.4+):

Stat Bonus Overhaul (SBO)



#23 subtledoctor

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 10:39 AM

If something says "for EE 1.4+" or something like it, that means it depends on technologies introduced in those patches, like opcode 326 or splprot.2da or something like that.  Such things cannot be backported to the pre-EE engine unless someone takes up the reins of ToBEx and adds such functionality to the old engine.

 

That doesn't seem very likely (people with the capability to work on .exe-hack modding are instead working on hacking the EE .exe these days) so anything I do that is listed as EE-only (almost everything I've done lately) will probably forever be EE-only.  Call Bioware together and convince them to patch the old engine, or suck it up and buy the EEs when they go on sale.

 

Honestly, I recommend just playing the EEs if you like to mod the game... If you can find them for cheap, they enable a whole slew of mods that could never be possible on the old engine.



#24 ChitownWillie

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 09:57 AM

Hi Subtledoctor,

 

Installed "Functional Weapon Tweaks":

 

~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ #0 #102 // IWO - Functional Weapon Tweaks: v5.20

 

but looks like bolts and daggers have original values:

 

Attached Images

  • dagger.JPG
  • bolts.JPG


#25 ChitownWillie

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 11:10 AM

Also, I noticed that "Yet Another Revised Armor System" removes the Armor Class modifiers for different damage types (e.g., crushing/piercing/missile).

 

Was that intended?



#26 subtledoctor

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 01:35 PM

Re daggers and bolts: it may just be that the description text didnt get updated. Updating descriptions like that (based on perfect matching of phrases, without knowing what other mods have been installed first that might change those phrases) is less reliable than updating the items function (based on directly editing certain bits of the files).

Re removing armor bonuses for different damage types: yes it is intentional. They are stupid. At some point I had converted them to changes in damage resistance by damage type... but as I was fiddling with the values I realized the very concept is stupid and I gave up on it.

#27 The Imp

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 01:55 PM

Re removing armor bonuses for different damage types: yes it is intentional. They are stupid. At some point I had converted them to changes in damage resistance by damage type... but as I was fiddling with the values I realized the very concept is stupid and I gave up on it.
Before you can judge things stupid, you should show that you understand them or their direction, and move things <more in the the direction> rather than just give up on it, and then get yourself called the same.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#28 subtledoctor

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 05:57 AM

I moved things in the direction of different armor types having different combination of AC and DR, instead of giving different AC protections against different weapons.

Let me ask you: with the vanilla armors, did you ever wear a lighter armor - chain instead of plate, leather instead if chain, etc. - because of the types of weapons being used by your enemies? Did enemies ever change armor based on the types of weapons you were using? In short, did those extra AC adjustments by damage type ever have an actual effect on your tactics or the way you played the game?

I toyed with having a single broad difference among damage types: say, all armors have 1 point worse AC and 5% better DR against blunt weapons, and 1 point better AC and 5% worse DR against piercing weapons. That would make for interesting differences... but it still wouldnt change the way you play the game. Enemies have whatever weapons they have, without regard to such considerations. And the player will use the best weapon available, measured by APR or damage or enchantment. So I scrapped the idea and decided to keep it simple.

#29 The Imp

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 07:58 AM

Let me ask you: with the vanilla armors, did you ever wear a lighter armor - chain instead of plate, leather instead if chain, etc. - because of the types of weapons being used by your enemies? Did enemies ever change armor based on the types of weapons you were using? In short, did those extra AC adjustments by damage type ever have an actual effect on your tactics or the way you played the game?
Yes, I used KITs that were restricted at armor types. Should you know, kits are typically made to kill certain type of enemy better than others.
And so they had benefits and penalties in them. You can't discuss AC without all it's factors, and the kits are internal part of it.
Now, because you also add more kits and such, your kits might balance out between themselves with your system... but it's extreamly hard for compatibilitys sake, to say it's BALANCED, in with anything else.
And multiple other mods have done the damage resistance edit and some people like it, and others resent it for multiple reasons like I am sure you know. And in the ones I remember, the damage resiustance comes at the cost of the AC bonuses. Also the AC type bonuses stack beyond the AC -10 with any others, while the armor only doesn't, as I am pretty sure you know, also.
And as you probably know, there's IR that practically allows heavy armor to be used by thieves, this has the concequence that if the thief wants, they can use full plate mail armors to fight certain battles while using leather armors in others to gain practical tactical advantages. Being stealthed/detecting traps or better armored and protected from a type of damage via resistance in others.

Edited by The Imp, 18 January 2020 - 08:11 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#30 ChitownWillie

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:29 AM

Hi Subtledoctor,

 

Thanks for the explanation; so far I'm enjoying your Armor System.

 

A few more observations:

 

* Item Revisions affects "Move Silently" / "Hide" only - whereas your system affects almost all thieving skills (e.g., Ankheg -60 pickpockets). Just curious as to how you arrived at this decision.

 

* Your Dexterity penalties are more severe (e.g., Studded Leather -2), which makes selection more interesting. Now your standard 18 Dex thief takes some serious hits on numerous abilities (thieving, AC adj, missile ad).

 

* How you thought of incorporating movement speed penalties vis-a-vis Item Revisions?

 

Thanks!

Attached Images

  • ankheg.jpg
  • studded.jpg

Edited by ChitownWillie, 18 January 2020 - 09:33 AM.


#31 ChitownWillie

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 09:36 AM

On a side note, are Short Bows supposed to receive + 2 damage?

 

According to "Functional Weapon tweaks":

 

* Longbows and composite bows have their base APR reduced to 3/2 but do an extra +2 damage.

Attached Images

  • short bows.jpg

Edited by ChitownWillie, 18 January 2020 - 09:36 AM.


#32 subtledoctor

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 08:42 AM

Item Revisions affects "Move Silently" / "Hide" only - whereas your system affects almost all thieving skills (e.g., Ankheg -60 pickpockets). Just curious as to how you arrived at this decision.

 

Just made sense to me that thief-y skills that involve careful stealth, manipulation, and attention should all be affected by the hindrance and distraction of 30-60 pounds of clanking steel hanging off you.

 

Note that light armors only affect stealth, and at the unchanged vanilla values; how heavy armors affects thief skills are determined in the YARAS.ini file (in the /scales_of_balance/ini/ folder).  They are split into stealth (HiS, MS, PP), mechanical (OL, ST) and detection (FT, DI) skills.  You can control how these are affected by each armor type before you install the mod.

 

Your Dexterity penalties are more severe (e.g., Studded Leather -2), which makes selection more interesting. Now your standard 18 Dex thief takes some serious hits on numerous abilities (thieving, AC adj, missile ad).

 

Yes but note that armor enchantment both adds a straight AC bonus and removes some DEX penalty (up to 2 points).  So for your high-DEX thief could see a 2-point benefit when going from Studded Leather  to Studded Leather +1, and again to Studded Leather +2.  This is meant to make enchanted armors more valuable, and give more incentive for DEX-focused characters to stick to the lightest armors.

 

This too can be edited however you see fit in the .ini document before you install.  If you think the DEX penalties are too severe, you can drop them by 1 or whatever you deem appropriate.

 

* How you thought of incorporating movement speed penalties vis-a-vis Item Revisions?


I've never seen anyone talk about that as anything but an annoyance - something to penalize the player, more than the in-game character

 

Theoretically, you should be able to edit IR's .ini file to remove all adjustments except movement speed, and mix IR's movement speed penalties with my other adjustments. In fact both mods givce you some degree of control, so you should really be able to mix them together.  Want to really put pressure on spellcasters and mix IR's casting failure chance with my casting speed penalties?  With approriate edits before installing both mods, that should be possible.  My casting speed penalties can be modified as well, if you want to tone them down to account for the other penalty.

 

 

On a side note, are Short Bows supposed to receive + 2 damage?

 

According to "Functional Weapon tweaks":

 

* Longbows and composite bows have their base APR reduced to 3/2 but do an extra +2 damage.


It's possible the mod was confused about whether a given bow is a short bow or a long bow.  Short bows and long bows are fairly indistinguishable in the engine - they both share the same item type, and lots of other characteristics.  I think this mod looks for the proficiency to figure out which is which, but other mods can be installed first that might confuse things. 

 

It's also worth checking to see whether that also isn't just a text error, or whether short bows are actually getting that damage bonus.

 

EDIT - I think I might know what's going on in your screenshot.  If you can, check whether the bow in your screenshot is BOW05.itm, or BOW08.itm.  I'm guessing it's the latter.  I think the component that changes generic enchanted +2 weapons to be Mastercraft or "Enchanted [Weapon'" (removing the "+2") can sometimes get confused and change the item name to the base unenchanted version.  That is probably actually a Short Bow +2, which is where that +2 damage comes from.



#33 ChitownWillie

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 08:56 AM

So I took a look behind the scenes with Near Infinity - Looks like :

 

* Show Bow (BOW05) = d6 + 2 damage

* Long Bow (BOW03) = d6 + 2 damage, +1 THAC0

* Protector of the Dryads (BOW08) - d6 + 2 damage, +2 THAC0

 

Is that correct?

Attached Images

  • bow05.JPG
  • long bow.JPG
  • bow08.JPG

Edited by ChitownWillie, 19 January 2020 - 09:00 AM.


#34 subtledoctor

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 01:22 PM

In Near Infinity, if you press edit the view will show you more information... can you let me know what proficiency each one uses?

(I just installed that component on a bare BG2EE install and this didnt happen - bow03.itm did not have that +2 bonus. So something happened in your install which confused it.)

#35 The Imp

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 02:25 PM

Or to find out what mod and what component F-ed it up, you can make a --change-log out of the "bow05.itm" file.
PS: what's with the different the damage types (missile vs. piercing) ? Yes, it's in the vanilla game, but I am still asking.

Edited by The Imp, 19 January 2020 - 02:26 PM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#36 subtledoctor

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 07:30 PM

PS: what's with the different the damage types (missile vs. piercing) ? Yes, it's in the vanilla game, but I am still asking.


Doesn't matter because launchers don't do damage - ammunition does.  Probably just harmless minor negligence by Bioware back in ~2000...

 

EDIT - oh I see, if the launcher adds bonus damage, does it apply a particular specified type or does it increase the projectile's damage?  Good question.  I don't know the answer.


Edited by subtledoctor, 20 January 2020 - 07:49 AM.


#37 ChitownWillie

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:00 PM

Subtledoctor,

 

I assume you mean the "Edit" tab at top?

 

 

Attached Images

  • short bow.JPG


#38 ChitownWillie

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:12 PM

Or to find out what mod and what component F-ed it up, you can make a --change-log out of the "bow05.itm" file.
PS: what's with the different the damage types (missile vs. piercing) ? Yes, it's in the vanilla game, but I am still asking.


Thanks Imp! Had no idea about that utility - pretty slick!

 

Mods affecting BOW05.ITM:
00000: /* created or unbiffed */ ~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ 0 0 // BG2 Fixpack - Core Fixesv13
00001:  ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ 0 0 // Item Revisions by DemivrgvsV4 Beta 10 (Revised 1.2.5)
00002:  ~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ 0 18 // Revised BackstabbingThief-only WeaponsV4 Beta 10 (Revised 1.2.5)
00003:  ~KITPACK6/SETUP-KITPACK6.TP2~ 0 0 // General Class, Kit, & Class-Combination Rebalancing
00004:  ~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ 0 101 // IWO - Aesthetic & Enchantment TweaksStandardize Enchanted Equipmentv5.20
00005:  ~SCALES_OF_BALANCE/SCALES_OF_BALANCE.TP2~ 0 102 // IWO - Functional Weapon Tweaksv5.20
00006: /* acted upon in an undefined manner */ ~GENERALIZED_BIFFING/GENERALIZED_BIFFING.TP2~ 0 0 // Generalized Biffingv2.2

 

Obvious culprit is Item Revisions, but I didn't install "Weapon Changes" component - only installed core "Item Revisions" component.


Edited by ChitownWillie, 21 January 2020 - 01:23 PM.


#39 ChitownWillie

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 01:16 PM

Subtledoctor,

 

Does your "Weapon Category Collapse" cause both Short Bows and Long Bows to fall under category "Short Bow"?

 

Take a look at Proficiency for Long Bow:

Attached Images

  • Long Bow.JPG

Edited by ChitownWillie, 21 January 2020 - 01:30 PM.


#40 subtledoctor

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 06:12 AM

Yes. Long bows use the short bow proficiency (renamed to just bows) and the long bow proficiency becomes unused.

Edited by subtledoctor, 17 February 2020 - 06:13 AM.