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Bug/Feature Request: Consistent Enchantment Level


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#1 -dashteacup-

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:37 PM

I don't know if this counts as a bug or a feature request. I'm using BG2EE on a Mac with RR 4.71.

 

In the EEs (I don't know about the originals) all +X/+Y vs. Creature weapons have an enchantment level of +Y. For example, 'Kondar' the Bastard sword +1, +3 vs. Shapeshifters, counts as a +3 weapon. In RR, these weapons only have an enchantment level of +X. Notably, my Stonemasher +4 vs Golems can't hit Iron Golems. I propose that you give all the +X/+Y vs. Creature items added by the mod an enchantment level of +Y to match the rest of the items in the game.

 

Items that would need changing are:

Stonemasher +2/+4

Stonemasher +3/+5

Stonemasher +4/+6

Silverblaze +3/+5

Trollmelter +2/+4

Keeper of the Law +2/+4

Keeper of the Law +3/+5

Blindstrike Bow +3/+5 (This doesn't really matter given the way bow enchantment works.)

 

Thank you.



#2 Ithildur

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 02:29 AM

Agreed; that's the way these types of weapon enchantments are supposed to work in 2e and vanilla BG2.  BG2Fixpack goes through all vanilla weapons with +x/+y vs 'creature' weapons and makes them consistent in this manner. RR should follow suit as well unless the mod aims specifically to make its items different.


Edited by Ithildur, 06 November 2014 - 02:30 AM.


#3 Wisp

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 11:34 AM

BG2Fixpack goes through all vanilla weapons with +x/+y vs 'creature' weapons and makes them consistent in this manner. RR should follow suit as well unless the mod aims specifically to make its items different.

Since I think this particular change is detrimental to game balance you won't find much success trying to sway me with that argument. However, if you are bothered by this discrepancy, I can offer to change the vanilla items to match RR.



#4 -dashteacup-

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 12:46 PM

Could you give a Weidu install option that lets you pick how you want them to behave? You could let the user decide if they want them to count as +X or +Y?



#5 aVENGER

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:28 AM

I'm not sure what the fixpack does with original game items, but I can say with certainty that the RR item placement and balancing was made with the lower enchantment value in mind.

 

They were never intended to have a higher enchantment value than what is currently there.



#6 Tash

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 05:44 AM

Agreed; that's the way these types of weapon enchantments are supposed to work in 2e and vanilla BG2.  BG2Fixpack goes through all vanilla weapons with +x/+y vs 'creature' weapons and makes them consistent in this manner. RR should follow suit as well unless the mod aims specifically to make its items different.

 

Frankly, you'll find that a lot of people actually edit this part of the FixPack out. Personally, I disagree with this change as well. I believe these weapons aren't supposed to be of any higher enchantment level. They are powerful already as they are.

 

Also, I'm really glad that aVENGER and Wisp follow this line of thinking. Most of your Rebalancing ideas always struck me as well-developed and generally good for the gameplay aspect. Thanks!



#7 -dashteacup-

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 09:42 AM

Frankly, you'll find that a lot of people actually edit this part of the FixPack out.

 

I'm kind of surprised by that. I know I would never ever use burning earth if it only hit as a +1 weapon, or daystar if it only hit as a +2, or almost all the vanilla +X/+Y weapons if they only functioned as +X.

 

Well, if you're going to make them work different from the way the other +X/+Y weapons work, can you explicitly declare the enchantment level in the item description? I think they do this for the mace of disruption +2 and the equalizer. It would be a UI improvement.



#8 dashteacup

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 09:56 AM

Heh, actually, when I think about it, daystar is probably one of the few vanilla weapons I still would use if it only counted as +2. Bad example.  :doh:



#9 Tash

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 06:07 AM

I know that this is a necessary evil to make these weapons work. But considering that the enchantment level basically determines whether a weapon is mid-game or end-game, giving the Burning Earth a +4 is an overkill. It's basically an end-game sword that you can find before Spellhold. You can hit pretty much everything in the game with it. No need for the Equalizer. No need for weapon upgrades. You already have an effective +4 sword. Damage doesn't matter, they all die anyway unless you pump up the difficulty with SCS or such.

 

Yes, I know you can't hit Iron Golems with a War Hammer +1, +4 against Golems. May look like an oversight, but in my opinion, that just means you gotta find a better weapon. Note that Kondar, Burning Earth, Root of the Prob -- all of these are BG1 leftovers; I believe they're not supposed to be as powerful as, say, the Equalizer. In other words, you're not supposed to be able to hit late-game monsters with them.

 

I also think this applies to all the other weapons found in BG2. The enchantment level may determine whether you can fight or not. Damage is just a way to compare how cool things die in your game.


Edited by Tash, 11 November 2014 - 07:25 AM.


#10 The Imp

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 07:35 AM

... all of these are BG1 leftovers; I believe they're not supposed to be as powerful as, say, the Equalizer. In other words, you're not supposed to be able to hit late-game monsters with them.
Sorry, but what would those be ?
In my opinion, a creature that was made to be hit with a +2 weapon should be hittable with any +2 weapon, even if it was made to be a +2 against just goblins, cause it has a special hunger for goblins blood.
Now unfortunately the game doesn't have damage threshold for this like things, so smashing with god strength with a +1 weapon doesn't do a thing against Iron Golems. While it would in a more well defined system.
Now then, what comes to the +x vs creature type items, no one says it has to be a Stonemasher +2/+4. It could be Stonemasher +2, and note that you would have the extra +2 to thac0 and damage in the item effects, which has no bearing about the enhancement it has. So there won't be arguments about what it can hit, or can't.
Also usually a +2 vs a enemy type is too small bonus in my opinion ... as there's only so much usage you get out of it. A +4 to damage would be something better(with +2 to Thac0). This is likely the reason why the "War Hammer +1, +4 against Golems" is likely to have the +4, instead of +2. The bonus of 1 is likely to have been too small of advantage, and it was designed when the Enhancement level was not TEH requirement to hit things with.

There's a very good example here, the Kondar to argue about, now it has no flaws in the original game, except that people might think it as a +1 sword instead of +3. Either for me is fine actually, but what a mod maker needs to make a special account is that the weapon is a +3 vs Shapeshifters, which include the Werewolves, and in so the game content with the Loup Garou creatures. Now the sword has had been falsely flagged by several good mods as not non-steal weapon(or golden in one of the moding tools), which made it unable to hit the one of the most dangerous Shapeshifter creatures in BG1 game (in BGT). Since then, they have redacted that action in each of the mods, but you should still consider it a feature, and as such a warning like the sword of Damocles, you have to know what exactly you are implementing. You can't just blindly go ahead.

Edited by The Imp, 11 November 2014 - 10:46 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#11 Tash

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 09:09 AM

You're right in that it's a tough call. Such weapons are doomed to be either loved or hated.

 

I always considered Enchantment Level to be an additional difficulty layer, even if it's not consistent with the Rules. So that players are, well, actually forced to swap weapons every once in a while. So that one can't just Varscona or Flame Tongue their way through the game. Some creatures were created/are protected with powerful layers of magic and, in my opinion, a Club designed to kill Undead shouldn't break through powerful Golem's enchantment. Unfortunately, this means the Club probably won't hit Mummies, either. Damn you, game engine!

 

Still, I prefer the lesser evil of not being able to hit things rather than making it even less troublesome and hit everything in my path. I want to be rewarded for finding/crafting higher enchantment weapons so that I can progress further. But that's just me. I play to fight with the Game itself :D.



#12 dashteacup

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 01:21 PM

Well, if you're going to make them work different from the way the other +X/+Y weapons work, can you explicitly declare the enchantment level in the item description? I think they do this for the mace of disruption +2 and the equalizer. It would be a UI improvement.

 

Any opinion on this from the devs? I don't think it would be a difficult change to make, and it would be helpful so people don't have to open up NearInfinity to figure out why their attacks aren't hitting.



#13 The Imp

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 03:54 PM

Any opinion on this from the devs? I don't think it would be a difficult change to make, and it would be helpful so people don't have to open up NearInfinity to figure out why their attacks aren't hitting.

Normally it wouldn't be, but see the thing is, there's more than one variable that comes to play here, it's the item byte 0x0060, and flags in 1-6, 2-0 and 2-1 that all come to play. And you have to make it readable ! And not too long as there's mods that border the mark count border that the .itm description string can contain. And if that fails, reading the too long description will crash the game. Piece of cake!


Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#14 Wisp

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 05:48 PM

Well, if you're going to make them work different from the way the other +X/+Y weapons work, can you explicitly declare the enchantment level in the item description? I think they do this for the mace of disruption +2 and the equalizer. It would be a UI improvement.

 

Any opinion on this from the devs? I don't think it would be a difficult change to make, and it would be helpful so people don't have to open up NearInfinity to figure out why their attacks aren't hitting.

I'm not opposed to the idea and will keep it in mind for when I update RR next time. This is not a promise.

Edit: Equalizer is the only vanilla item that states it's enchantment level (well, Helm's Seeking Sword does as well). The concern here is that RR's items might stand out too much as mod items (if the policy discrepancy bothers, my first offer still stands).


Edited by Wisp, 30 November 2014 - 05:53 PM.


#15 dashteacup

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:14 AM

Well, if you're going to make them work different from the way the other +X/+Y weapons work, can you explicitly declare the enchantment level in the item description? I think they do this for the mace of disruption +2 and the equalizer. It would be a UI improvement.

 

Any opinion on this from the devs? I don't think it would be a difficult change to make, and it would be helpful so people don't have to open up NearInfinity to figure out why their attacks aren't hitting.

I'm not opposed to the idea and will keep it in mind for when I update RR next time. This is not a promise.

Edit: Equalizer is the only vanilla item that states it's enchantment level (well, Helm's Seeking Sword does as well). The concern here is that RR's items might stand out too much as mod items (if the policy discrepancy bothers, my first offer still stands).

 

Is the enchantment level only displayed on the EE version of the mace of disruption?